bambiboom :
Chayan4400 :
I think we're all missing the point here. Bambiboon's recommendations are spot on; except that they are for serious workstation builds. I believe the OP on the other hand is looking for a PC for mixed use: some video editing here, a bit of productivity there and gaming every now and again. I don't believe that, even though he's looking at longevity, ECC RAM, RAID configs and Xeons are going to give him any added benefit over a good custom built PC (Yes, he doesn't want to buid it himself but I'll explain in a bit). Yes, if you are looking at serious 3D modeling, video editing or data crunching, then Quadros and other enterprise or specialist grade hardware can immensely increase performance. For an all round PC however, they'll either have little benefit or actually hinder some tasks (Quadro + gaming). Longevity is the other point. Simply put, for a $1000 PC 10 years is a no-no. You'll be looking at 5 years if you're lucky. Even then, you probably will have to upgarde the GPU to keep up if you are picky on settings in games. Why?
I'll take the example I took before; the $1100 Pentium Extreme Edition 840. Released in 2005, almost exactly 10 years ago. Now, it'll struggle with Windows 10, if you can even find a way to get past the sure compatibility problems. IDE HDDs are obselete, and should one fail then you'll be very hard-pressed to find a replacement. Even an SSD won't help as the SATA ports are SATA II. DDR2 RAM is obselete, and will seriously hinder the PC due to it's slow speeds and low capacity. And any GPU available at the time will have no drivers for Windows 10.
Fast-forward to 2010. The i7 980X is the new king. It uses DDR3, which is still readily available and causes no bottlenecks with current software. SATA III is used for HDDs, with IDE having been phased out by most manufacturers. The GPUs of the time like the GTX 460 and 480, are still usable at the least, and the 980X can even handle a 970 today. It's good for at least another 1-2 years.
If ou don't want to build it youreslf, there are a number of custom PC builders who will do it for you. Yes, some of them are not that good and use substandard parts but there are a few that, while they may charge slightly more, are turstable and don't cut corners in criticakl places. You will pay more than if you were to build it yourself, however. I can tell you though that it isn't that hard to do so; One of our own members work at a school where he advices students on what parts to select and how to assemble PC; they themselves out the PC together. It's really quite simple, much like Lego. Eveything is labeled and slots in at designated places, with little guesswork involved. I recommend that you take a look at a few videos and tutorials online, to see how easy it really is.
Chayan4400,
Very good comments.
The salient feature of this thread is that on face value, our friend Psychichfashion has mentioned specifically only very moderate performance and capability demands. The idea of having "possibly hundreds" of web pages open and "I would like to maintain maximum flexibility to do whatever I might want to, and, " I would be really sad if either were outdated in 5 years."
"
Whatever I might want to do" though is extremely open-ended and that's why a used workstation seems the best choice. My advocacy of a used LGA2011 workstation is becuase workstations are designed for long, continuous use reliably, have good expansion potential, and are quiet-running. And LGA2011 has a large memory bandwidth, a lot of PCIe lanes, and can use many-cored Xeons if necessary. Also, there are some fantastic, highly capable Xeon E5's- espeically v2's that are now highly depreciated and the system that starts with a moderate 4-core might have a fast 8 or 10 for a reasonable cost. The general workstation specification thereby fulfills "I would like to maintain maximum flexibility to do whatever I might want to." And, because the budget is limited, having the "whatever I might want to do" potential means the system needs to be used.
Also, the correct choice in a used workstation means that Psychichfashion does not have to make extensive changes or modifications. Perhaps change the GPU or add drives is inevitable, but my sense is that an extensive technical project is not the idea, as the OP mentions frustration with resolving technical issues and technical inexperience. I believe Psychichfashion is not a potential specifier, let alone a builder, and probably a reluctant upgrader. Having a new, custom system built is going to pressure the budget and anyway, there are proprietary systems that will fill the use and performance requirements within the budget. I think many- most users would rather buy a computer and never have to think about it technically for five years. Those people buy Macs and live in happy ignorance of Windows suffering.
You're certainly correct in the idea that no PC can really be expected to not be outdated in 5 years. There was a great cartoon a few years ago in "T
he New Yorker" of a table having a haphazard pile of PC's and a big sign on it reading "Day Old". My attitude is though, that this is a question of degree as far as the use is concerned and given the uses mentioned in this thread, even a moderate system could be useful for a very long time. It's surprising: I used a Dell Dimension 8400 with a single-core Pentium 4 from 2004 to 2010 - 6 years- and produced hundreds of CAD drawings in AutoCad 2004 and 2007, quite a few 3D models in Sketchup, a lot of graphic design, edited 1000's of images and probably 1,000's pages written. Except for rendering, and large 3D projects, I could use it today as so many programs are still single-threaded.
Good discussion.
Cheers,
BambiBoom
Bambiboom,
I like with your recommendation of the workstation with a better graphics card and ram. I was looking around for a marriage between higher specs without the OEM premium; and a special build, whether from modifications or a custom build remains to be seen.
Looking around for options, I tried to drill down into them, and other issues came up too. I’ve tried to take a survey of the environment, and directions to go in.
In addition to workstations, I also found places to get custom units and I got a few bids with specs, and a few modification options- I posted them to Chayan4400’s last comment on this thread, if you could also look at that, I would be interested in your opinion on how they stack up and whether you like any of them better than the workstation options we are looking at here. The custom builds all use new parts (unless I were to buy used parts and commission a build of them).
I discuss later in this post that the older rebuilt workstation has pros and cons. Pros are that it is 20-30% cheaper and still has high memory expandability, better stamina, sturdy and reliable construction, and lots of PCIe lanes. Cons are that it doesn’t have a warranty or tech support, requires customization, and uses last generation tech as processor, motherboard, and memory type.
The new model rebuilt workstation has (pros) latest tech and high end processor and motherboard (and includes high memory expandability, better stamina, sturdy and reliable construction, and lots of PCIe lanes along with the older models); but (cons) still requires customization and installation, and comes out the same price or more than a custom built. Might or might not have a warranty.
The custom built computer is (pros) done to spec, brand new, warranted (but by a small operator), but (cons) it is more expensive, highly variable (with the pasts and other variables being unfamiliar to me), and doesn’t have professional tech support.
Finally, I threw in a maxed XPS I found a good bargain on for comparison. Very easy and loaded with a 1 year warranty, but lacks memory expandability beyond 32 gb, yet is the same price range as the other recent tech options.
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The previous Lenovo S30/ E5-2670/64 gb ddr3 ram/Nvidia GTX 660/512 ssd option was $1000. The seller said that the E5-2670 would function better than the Passmark benchmarks would suggest, because the 8 hyperthreaded cores would allow me to do more processes at once, faster, and the tests do not reveal this function. (Which I did say less explicitly in a previous post.) Also the benchmarks do not test online performance, which is major for me. I really wish that the E5-2670 were benchmarked with the S30! He also said that they have some E5-1650 processors there, but for the price I would do better to get a get a pair of E5-2660-2670s. So that begs the question, if I could get a comparable price on a Lenovo ThinkStation D30 with the same specs as the S30, would that be worth considering? When I Googled, it seemed ambiguous whether Windows 10 even recognizes dual processors.
I should point out that the same company that is selling the Lenovo S30 and D30 also has a few Dell T3600s and the HPZ420s, modifiable to spec, but they only really offer Xeon E5-2660, 2670, and 2680 as processors, and the price would be comparable to the S30.
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I have to say after looking at the workstations under consideration for awhile, it seems there is some kind of run on workstations right now! The selection was a lot better a month ago, even a couple of weeks ago, but I suppose that I could always wait for the next bunch. The used workstation ends up about $1000-$1200 after modifications (that I would likely to pay someone to make). The souped-up used workstations aren’t that much cheaper when all is said and done, it seems. Seems about 20-30% depending on the offer.
So first question: how do they stack up on longevity? The Lenovo S30, D30 the HPZ420, and the Dell Precision T3600 are both using ddr3 and are limited to E5 vi or v2 and the corresponding motherboard, if I am not mistaken. This raises a concern for upgradability with regard to obsolescence. The tech is already a few years old and out or being phased out. It might make sense to move up a level, to current model or custom-built, in honor of longevity, and pay a little more or lower the specs a little with the intent of upgrading later. What do you think about that?
The other issue is that used last-model machines have no warranty (beyond 30-90 days), or tech support. Custom builds usually have a (small time operator) warranty and might have a little tech support if I am lucky. (While feeling an idiot for needing it, I am reminded of your previous comment about Mac people who “live in happy ignorance of Windows suffering.”)
If the recent-model workstation idea is desirable, how does it stack up against the custom built idea? Both seem to run in the same price range. The workstations have more expandability for memory, more PCIe lanes, use the Xeon, and are more sturdy, but other than that, the custom builds seem comparable. The recent-model workstations having a large company standing behind them has its appeal, to manage future bugs, issues, windows problems, etc. But a custom build requires no mods and is done to spec and is as good as the parts chosen.
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In thinking about a recent-model workstation, I was wondering if I could get a current Lenovo P series for close to $1000 and upgrade it, and I saw a single processor P500 on ebay for $1200. It sold a few hours later, but I would think that if one was available, one like it should be again eventually. This had specs closer to what we were looking for than others on the market. I could wait for something like this, and upgrade it. I have seen similar on the Lenovo outlet website, only occasionally, but which has a great warranty and costs a few more bucks.
Lenovo Thinkstation P500 Six Core Xeon E5-1650v3 / 8GB / 256GB SSD / 650W PS (SOLD)
Minitower case with 650W power supply
Six-Core Intel Xeon E5-1650 v3 3.5GHz CPU
(15MB L3 cache, 2133MHz memory, HT, Turbo Boost 2.0)
8GB ECC DDR4-2133 SDRAM
256GB Opal SSD
9-in-1 media card reader, DVD±RW
No video card (required)
Integrated High Definition audio
Integrated Intel 10/100/1000 ethernet adapter
Integrated Serial ATA III RAID controller
Intel C612 chipset
Warrantied by Lenovo until 8/22/18
This P500 is a little more expensive and lower specs than desirable, but contains the next generation of components, so it takes DDR4 and Xeon E5 v3’s, and has the power and versatility of a workstation. It might be worth a few extra bucks to be in the next generation, in honor of longevity. The used P500’s tend to be a bit skimpy on ram and hard drive, might not have an OS, and sometimes lack a GPU or have the wrong one; but also sometimes still have original warranties.
If I got a slightly used Lenovo P500, I would have to purchase more ddr4 ram, and an ssd, video card, and OS if needed, and add them or pay to have them added. They’re still pretty pricey, in fact the end total might end up being higher than a custom built computer. It seems no matter what I do- soup up a workstation or contract a custom build- I am still ending up in the same price range for current tech, of $1400-1700. That seems a reflection of the sharp accuracy of the computer market (and perhaps it’s futile to try to get around it).
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Neither here nor there, I came across a tantalizingly easy offer of a fully loaded XPS on Woot.com for $1500 that comes with a one year warranty. It’s only available for a few more days. This partially bypasses the “Murcielago” effect you described. Unfortunately, this unit maxes at 32 gb ram, and I had decided that expandability to 64 gb was important for “longevity.”
Dell XPS 8900 Performance Desktop, Intel Core i7-6700K Quad-Core 3.4GHz, NVIDIA GTX 960 2GB, 32GB DDR4, 2TB HDD + 256GB SSD, 802.11ac, Bluetooth, Win10Pro
http://sellout.woot.com/offers/dell-xps-8900-gtx-960-2tb256gb-desktop?ref=so_cnt_wp_1_9
On Amazon, the same unit is $1800. (Where there is a subgroup of very pissed-off buyers of this model who left bad reviews. Apparently there are some serious lemons in this bunch.)
Between these and the custom build opportunities posted to Chayan4400, these seem my options and directions now.
I am trying to fully engage with the issues. Is there anything I am missing? What do you think?
I didn’t ask you before about the “dream” option. Barring total extravagance, if I were going to spend 1200-1700 anyway, what would the dream option be?
Bambiboom, I appreciate your incisive analysis and insights, and your wit. Thank you.
Psychichfashion
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