With the Vista Ultimate rumored price of $450. Neowin did a survey. 442 of 1338 said that $299 was a fair price. While 861 found it a better idea to pick it up on the street for $10 bucks.
 

INeedCache

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This is really pointless. Who decides what is a "fair" price? In my opinion, just about everything is overpriced, thus not "fair". I've yet to see a car that I think is worth more than $40,000, but there are lots of them out there for much more than that. Is there a graphics card "fairly" priced at $500? No. End of story.
 

llama_man

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I assume that's retail price? Never bought a retaill operating system - it's usually just as cheap to buy a hard-disk and an OEM copy. And then you have effectively a free harddisk.

Even $299 is a ridiculous price for an o/s. $299 is, what, £190? £190 would make the o/s the most expensive component in my system - even more than the graphics card! 8O

I paid £50 for my OEM copy of XP, and I think that's fair. If MS think I'm going to pay £190 for Vista just to get DX10 and a flashy interface they're having a laugh.
 
You're forgetting one thing, however. Windows XP Pro was $299 when it was first released (retail). Vista Ultimate is going to be XP Pro with all of it's features as well as Media Center and all of it's features. So $299 sounds about right with MS's pricing model.
 

g-paw

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If the price is set by supply and demand and there is real compition, then the price is likely to be fair. For all intent and purpose Microsoft is a monopoly and I don't think when there's a monopoly or or collution, e.g., oil/gas prices, the price is ever fair.
 

Powerdog_69er

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You do not have even the slightess idea what "monopoly" means... do you?
Back when the "Standard Oil Company" [who now calls themselves "Exxon]...was going through the courts on anti-trust and monopoly charges... they were literally out pricing the neighbor oil companies... who were offering the same exact item...GAS!!!
Microsoft and Apple and Linux... far different OS's.

Apple $200.00
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wo/0.RSLID?mco=405B1455&nplm=MA453Z%2FA

Microsoft $299.00
http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&type=ovr&pcid=2abf99cd-a5e4-469c-802e-55ca8ec542d5

When you enter the thought about all the drivers alone... or all the games, programs, or anything else that are designed to work with "Windows"...by Microsoft or any other company... 99.00 extra...

not really a monopoly...

and actually...

the amount of extras that you have or can do with "Windows" compared to Apple... $99.00...

not really a monopoly.

When you have the choice to buy Apple or download Linux... do you have a monopoly?

By the way... why did Apple decide to switch over to the "Intel" type chip?
Now I am in no way even close to knowing anything about architectures of chips and how it all correlates to software, but I'm just wondering if it has something to do with making it so that "Apple" can actually do more [down the road...don't want to make it to obvious] things like "Windows" can do... Hmmm

I am in no way dogging Apple or Linux, or even you...I just get amazed when people/courts say that Microsoft is a monopoly...when you don't have to buy it to begin with!!!
You don't need it to get to work or school.
You don't even need it at work or school.. [Linux, Apple,Open Office, Corel...etc]
You don't eat or drink it.
You don't even sleep with it!!!

but yet....it's a monopoly
 

g-paw

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When a company controls more than 80% of a market, which Windows does, it is a monopoly. Of course there are other OS out there, most notably Linux and Mac. Unless you want to get locked into hardware, Mac is not an alternative. Yes I know they are now using Intel and there is some compatibility with Windows but your still stuck with their hardware. As for Linux, the vast majority of users simply want to turn on their machines and do what ever it is they want to do and that ain’t going to happen with Linux. There is also the issue of the availability and compatibility of software, choice, for Mac and Linux. Unless you buy a Mac or some low end machine with Linux, you will end up with Windows. It's about time that people in this country begin to recognize what is going on regardless of idiotic legal arguments or fudging definitions of software mfg. Windows is a monopoly and we are renting not buying software including music and movies. DRM limits my rights as to how I use software, including making copies for person use, as well as justifying putting spyware on my computer, e.g., Windows Genuine Advantage or whatever it's called. The Federal government is now saying they have a right to my digital communication without a warrant. I am well aware of Standard Oil and the other monopolies of the period. I’m also aware of what the U S movement did in the 1950s and 60s. I’m also know I have no real choice in broadband, Cable and DSL at equivalent speeds cost the same, that’s a choice? Gas prices may vary by a penny or 2 at different gas stations and every time a Sheik sneezes the price of gas goes up before he wipes his nose, that ain’t a free competitive market. The only thing saving us from big intrusive government and international corporate monopolies is the fact the Internet is too difficult to control and there are plenty of innovative hackers. I’ll worry about corporate property rights when they respect mine and I don’t need the government telling me what is best for me. Finally, my personal freedom and rights to privacy take precedent over any security issues.
 

Powerdog_69er

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First of all...

Awesome Response!!!

Second of all

1.You don't have to buy "Windows", just like H.P. or Dell doesn't have to use it either....but they do...

And [Oh my God!!!] they did it through monopolizing...

I doubt it.

2..
As for Linux, the vast majority of users simply want to turn on their machines and do what ever it is they want to do and that ain’t going to happen with Linux

So it is Microsoft's problem that they came out with a product that 94% [not 80] of the worlds population likes... and decided to use... Mind you that they bought the DOS OS from some guy in Seattle [I believe the name is Paterson]...and through trials and tribulations it has grown into "Vista"... keeping in mind that less then 1% of the worlds population even heard of DOS at that time... and they have made it into 94% of the worlds population loving it or using it...

And [Oh my God!!!] they did it through monopolizing...

I doubt it.

3...The thing that amazes me the most though is Linux... with the amount of awesome programmers that use that system, why they have not yet banded together to make it an easier OS, one that has no problems with drivers, one that can play any game or run any program...

but then... the only way they would be able to do that is:

through [Oh my God!!!] monopolizing

I doubt it.
 

llama_man

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You do not have even the slightess idea what "monopoly" means... do you?
Well, you clearly don't, judging by the rest of your post.

Back when the "Standard Oil Company" [who now calls themselves "Exxon]...was going through the courts on anti-trust and monopoly charges... they were literally out pricing the neighbor oil companies... who were offering the same exact item...GAS!!!
It is commonplace for a company that dominates a market to out-price it's competitors to prevent them getting a foot in the door of the market. Another example would be how British Airways priced Laker out of business. It's how monopolies remain monopolies. It's called a "barrier of entry" and is one of Porter's "5 Forces" if you're interested in business strategy theory.

Microsoft and Apple and Linux... far different OS's.
Indeed so. You can't really use Apple OS (or Linux) to play games, so for the PC Gamer, Microsoft has a monopoly.

When you enter the thought about all the drivers alone... or all the games, programs, or anything else that are designed to work with "Windows"...by Microsoft or any other company... 99.00 extra...
not really a monopoly...
Err, how does the cost of the product in any determine whether the vendor is a monopoly?

When you have the choice to buy Apple or download Linux... do you have a monopoly?
Yes, if you want to play 95% of the games on the market.

I am in no way dogging Apple or Linux, or even you...I just get amazed when people/courts say that Microsoft is a monopoly...when you don't have to buy it to begin with!!!
You don't need it to get to work or school.
You don't even need it at work or school.. [Linux, Apple,Open Office, Corel...etc]
You don't eat or drink it.
You don't even sleep with it!!!

but yet....it's a monopoly
Just because it's not an essential product, doesn't mean that the producer isn't a monopoly! Where did you get that idea?

A monopoly is where a single producer controls so much of the market that they effectively have total control. It has NOTHING to do with the nature of the product, the price, the day of the week or the colour of the CEO's beard.
Of course, the nature of being in a monopolistic position means that the price of the product will, over a period of time, average to be higher than if there was effective competition. BUT price is not part of the definition of a monopoly.
 

Powerdog_69er

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Just so you know...

You say this...
It is commonplace for a company that dominates a market to out-price it's competitors to prevent them getting a foot in the door of the market. Another example would be how British Airways priced Laker out of business. It's how monopolies remain monopolies. It's called a "barrier of entry" and is one of Porter's "5 Forces" if you're interested in business strategy theory.

Then you say this...

A monopoly is where a single producer controls so much of the market that they effectively have total control. It has NOTHING to do with the nature of the product, the price, the day of the week or the colour of the CEO's beard.

In the first qoute you say "dominates a market to out-price it's competitors to prevent" ..
But then you later say this "NOTHING to do with the nature of the product, the price, the day of the week or the colour of the CEO's beard. "

I don't even have to respond to that idiotism... your doing well yourself.


_________________________________

You can't really use Apple OS (or Linux) to play games, so for the PC Gamer, Microsoft has a monopoly.

Was it Microsofts fault that game programmers choose their system to write the game programs for... by the way.. you can [if I remember right] play Quake, far Cry, and some other good ones on Linux...some programmers are getting smarter in realizing the fact that the games play just as well if not better on Linux...from what I've heard in other forums.

But that was Microsofts fault.
__________________________

Err, how does the cost of the product in any determine whether the vendor is a monopoly?

will, over a period of time, average to be higher than if there was effective competition

My example of the $99, was that after how many years of being dominate, they are giving pretty good for the price in comparison to Apple... but then again, you saying "over a period of time"...just proves what you know about business strategies... in comparison to what i was trying to say about pricing.

_____________________________


Just because it's not an essential product, doesn't mean that the producer isn't a monopoly! Where did you get that idea?
Give it up!!!

My point was....if you think it's a monopoly.....DON'T BUY IT!!!!!!!!!! ...IT'S NOT ESSENTIAL!!!!!!!
They didn't force you to buy it... SO HOW CAN IT BE A MONOPOLY!!!!!!!!
I didn't need it to drive my car...DID I????????
I didn't need it to work...DID I??????????
 

g-paw

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Bill Gates and his cohorts did what had to be done if computers were ever to become a common everyday device like the car, radio, or television. First you had to standardize the Operating System. This meant that programmers could write programs that they knew would work on a particular OS and most users accepted that OS. Second, it had to be simple, icons, pointing, and clicking. Third, it had to be reliable, i.e., it was relatively stable and always pretty much worked the same way. Microsoft did all this. I can’t tell you how they did this; I’ve never studied the history of OS but if anyone knows a good history, please let me know. And they were richly rewarded for this with billions of dollars, which they should have been. The problem is that the OS is what the engine is to a car, with out it nothing else works. Because of copyrights and patents and the need for standardization, you have a natural monopoly. Do you have a choice of OS? Absolutely. Is it viable choice for most users? No, the choice is no more viable than buying a car with without an inner combustion engine. Sure you can buy a diesel, but your choices are very limited and you’ll often sacrifice performance. (I know, an Audi turbo diesel just won the 24 hours of Le Mans). Or a Wankel, which gives you mileage and burns oil like a 50s muscle car. Fortunately, no one has a patent or copyright on the inner combustion engine. Microsoft will lose their monopoly when a Mac or Linux can be installed on a computer and run with the ease, reliability, and can run most, if not all, Windows compatible software. That day is probably not that far off. I just read an article on Xandros bringing out an easy to use and reasonably compatible version of Linux, sorry forgot where I read it no citation.

Microsoft is an OS monopoly, paraphrasing Shakespeare, What’s in a name, a pile of crap is still going to smell like crap no matter what you call it. So what should be done? I don’t think it’s necessary to break them up, other than the OS, there are plenty of good products competing with Microsoft’s other products including their Office products. What does need to be done is to make available what ever copyrighted stuff they have that makes it difficult for other programs including drivers to run on other OS. This could be done through licensing but the terms would have to be imposed from outside Microsoft. The fee would have to be low enough that the programs that licensed this could compete on price with software that doesn’t license it. Second, there would have to be a reasonable time period, 10 years, whatever. In other words, Microsoft should be forced to help their OS competitors. Given you cited Standard Oil in your first post, I guess you know enough economic history to know that this process took place in the past both in the U S and Europe. I’m not using Monopoly as a derogatory term. I can’t really put on this site the derogatory terms I use when discussing Microsoft. :twisted:
 

INeedCache

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capitalism: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market. -Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition.

Last time I checked this was a free market. There are other OS choices, and you are free to buy them. You are also free to refrain from buying Windows. Copyrights and patents should be null and void just for Microsoft, or for everyone? There are a lot of companies that choose to maximize profits by not writing their software for anything but Windows. Is that Microsoft's fault? Probably in your world, not in mine. A computer is a tool, part of which is the OS. I use the best tool to get the job done. Right now that happens to be Windows for most people. If someone else can come up with something better, I'll use it, and so will many others. How would you feel if you wrote some software, it became very popular, and you made money from it, but then you were forced to help your competitors level the playing field. I doubt you'd be so gracious and magnanimous. You seem to want to force Microsoft to play by different rules than everyone else, because you don't like them. Sorry, it doesn't work that way, and never should. You Microsoft haters really need a new hobby.
 

Powerdog_69er

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Hey g-paw, I think this is the story your referring to:

http://msn.com.com/Windows-friendly+desktop+Linux+launches/2100-9590_22-6087462.html?part=msn&tag=tg_nav&subj=ns_6087462

That would be totally awesome if it happens that way, with Xandros leading the way.
_______________________________

Although your response was very interesting and whole hearted... when you brought up the combustion engine analogy... that made me realize...

My analogy:

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blbenz.htm

and it was patented on January 29, 1886... then :

http://www.ford.com/en/heritage/centennial/default.htm
[very awesome timeline]

In 1903, Ford Motor Company was founded, very good product [Model T in 1908] and low and behold...Ford.... err...Microsoft was born.

IneedCache put it perfectly:

I use the best tool to get the job done. Right now that happens to be Windows for most people. If someone else can come up with something better, I'll use it, and so will many others. How would you feel if you wrote some software, it became very popular, and you made money from it, but then you were forced to help your competitors level the playing field. I doubt you'd be so gracious and magnanimous.

__________________________

Maybe Xandros is on something good here, especially with the "CodeWeavers CrossOver Office" or the "NTFS Read and Write"!!!

http://www.xandros.com/products/home/home_edition/new.html
 

g-paw

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That was the story on Xandros I was referring to. Also, nice article on Benz, forgot about that. Of course it didn't take long for others to use his design.

"apitalism: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market. -Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition. "

I guess the point on which we differ is "competition in a free market" as you emphasized. At this time I just don't think there is real or meaningful competition in the OS market as well as certain other markets including broadband and energy. Of course this is an opinion and there is certainly room for disagreement. There will always be an inherent conflict between consumers and produces, buyers and sellers as well as the government and the individual. The best of all possible worlds is when the compromises between these conflicting interests benefits both parties, which is an always changing target. I happen to believe right now technology producers are favored over the consumer and the goverment is infringing on the rights of the individual and favoring the producer or seller. Given there will never be a perfect world, any compromise will always favor one side over the other, I believe in these conflicts the rights of the consumer and the individual should always take precedent. I also recognize not everyone agrees with this and they have some good arguments to support their position. I think these kinds of discussions are important, especially when they remain civil, which this one has. While they are not likely to change every ones mind, they hopefully make people think about their positions and their implications. These kinds of discussions are especially important among people that are knowledgeable and care about the subject, in this case computer and digital technology because of the influence we have. It’s a safe bet that just about everyone on this forum has friends and families that come to them with computer problems and ask for advise, and opinions. As that great writer poet, and philosopher Anonymous once said, “Those who disagree with you have an inalienable right to be wrong.” :)
 

g-paw

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Microsoft definitely has its legal problems both here and especially Europe. I think 2 of the most troublesome areas are Digital Rights vs. Fair Use and access to the communication infra structure. The jury is still out on tiered ISP services, which is far from settled but I believe legislation has been introduced in the House supporting this. I don't think there is much questions of the government reducing our right to privacy, e.g., the NSA stuff and buying phone information from data brokers. The argument is whether or not they're doing it but is it legal and/or necessary. We just happen to be living in a period when technology is ahead of our normative and value system. Would like to know what that escrow account invested in going from $6.1 million to $65 million in 10 years.
 

llama_man

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Just so you know...

You say this...

It is commonplace for a company that dominates a market to out-price it's competitors to prevent them getting a foot in the door of the market. Another example would be how British Airways priced Laker out of business. It's how monopolies remain monopolies. It's called a "barrier of entry" and is one of Porter's "5 Forces" if you're interested in business strategy theory.

Then you say this...

A monopoly is where a single producer controls so much of the market that they effectively have total control. It has NOTHING to do with the nature of the product, the price, the day of the week or the colour of the CEO's beard.

In the first qoute you say "dominates a market to out-price it's competitors to prevent" ..
But then you later say this "NOTHING to do with the nature of the product, the price, the day of the week or the colour of the CEO's beard. "

I don't even have to respond to that idiotism... your doing well yourself.

I don't think you read my post properly, and should go back and read it again. The first quote you've used is where I was discussing typical behaviour of monopolies. The second quote is where I was clearing up your misconception of the DEFINITION of a monopoly.

Let me restate it in clearer terms:

A monopoly will commonly lower it's prices in order to price it's competitors out of the market. However, THIS IS NOT THE DEFINITION OF A MONOPOLY. The name "monopoly" is based rather obviously on "mono", meaning "one", and not on any notion of price.

For example, I could choose to start selling llama-flavoured jelly. If no-one else made it, then I would be a monopoly. It would not matter if I sold it at a loss, or at a great profit. I WOULD STILL BE A MONOPOLY.

Of course, my business tactic would be to sell at a high price until a competitor tried to enter the market and undercut me. Then, I would slash prices and spend a fortune on advertising until the competitor went bust, upon which I'd yank the prices up again.

The pricing strategy would not DEFINE me as being a monopoly, it would be an EFFECT of me being a monopoly.


You can't really use Apple OS (or Linux) to play games, so for the PC Gamer, Microsoft has a monopoly.

Was it Microsofts fault that game programmers choose their system to write the game programs for... by the way.. you can [if I remember right] play Quake, far Cry, and some other good ones on Linux...some programmers are getting smarter in realizing the fact that the games play just as well if not better on Linux...from what I've heard in other forums.

But that was Microsofts fault.

Fault has nothing to do with it. The fact is that the majority of games will only run on Windows, so that if you want to play most games, you need to buy Windows - and therefore Windows has a monopoly. Whether this was Microsoft's intention is no way relevant to whether or not the monopoly exists.


Err, how does the cost of the product in any determine whether the vendor is a monopoly?

will, over a period of time, average to be higher than if there was effective competition

My example of the $99, was that after how many years of being dominate, they are giving pretty good for the price in comparison to Apple... but then again, you saying "over a period of time"...just proves what you know about business strategies... in comparison to what i was trying to say about pricing.

Hmm, I'd suggest that maybe we should be thinking of it the other way around. How is it that Microsoft, which shifts many more copies of Windows than Apple does of it's OS, still charge more? You'd think the development costs would be spread over a far larger number of copies, and so should result in a cheaper product, not a more expensive one?

Say it costs £1bn to develop an operating system (figure plucked out of the air for example). If Microsoft sell 100 million copies, and Apple sell 10 million, then then the develop cost per product is £10 vs £100. assuming the cost of manufacturing the disk and distribution is the same, you'd expect Windows to be £90 cheaper, yes? But it isn't. This suggests a number of possibilities:

1. The development cost of Windows is orders of magnitude higher (seems unlikely to me)
2. Apple are selling their product with a low profit margin (or even at a loss) in order to gain market share.
3. Microsoft are charging with a huge profit margin to capitalise on thier market dominance.

If Microsoft aren't creaming the market, how come Bill Gates is the world's richest man?


Just because it's not an essential product, doesn't mean that the producer isn't a monopoly! Where did you get that idea?
Give it up!!!

My point was....if you think it's a monopoly.....DON'T BUY IT!!!!!!!!!! ...IT'S NOT ESSENTIAL!!!!!!!
They didn't force you to buy it... SO HOW CAN IT BE A MONOPOLY!!!!!!!!
I didn't need it to drive my car...DID I????????
I didn't need it to work...DID I??????????

You're doing it again. Why do you think you must be forced to buy a product for it to be a monopoly? Where did you get this notion?

Back to my example of llama-flavoured jelly: it would certainly not be an essential product, but it would still be a monopoly.

To illustrate my point:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/monopoly
You will note that in the main definition it does not mention:

1. Whether the commodity or service is essential
2. Price
3. CEO's beard colour

So, your continual assertion that "unless it's an essential product that it cannot be an monopoly" (paraphrased (*)) is false.


(*) your actual post was "They didn't force you to buy it... SO HOW CAN IT BE A MONOPOLY!!!!!!!!", which I assume was a rhetorical question designed to illustrate that it couldn't be a monpoly because you weren't forced to buy it.
 
So if you're the only one selling llama-flavored jelly, and as such are a monopoly, do you believe you should be forced to go out of business? Do you think your "company" should be divided up? If you are providing a product that everyone wants, and no one else can provide a competitive product, what do you think will happen if you're forced to close shop?

Microsoft isn't blocking Linux... and there is certainly no way they will ever beat it on price. They are GIVING it away for Christ's sake... and yet people still buy Windows.

I just find it hard to accuse Microsoft of anti-competitive behaviour when viable alternatives do exist. They may control the majority of the market, but that is hardly anything to fault them with. Face it, if Apple had a bigger share of the pie, would the SEC complain that MacOS had a monopoly?
 

g-paw

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Laws regarding monopolies go back the the end of the 19th century. In a free, competitive market system there is an inevitable movement to monopolies, companies get stronger, gain larger market shares, at the expense of other companies and the weaker ones go out of business. Eventually you end up with one or a few dominating the market at which point the market is no longer competitive. You can make the argument that only the strongest should survive but as socieies both the U S and Western Europe have decided that in order for the laws of supply and demand to work and to maintain a free market, there must be competition. If you want to know what happens when monopolies dominate an economy, start reading the economic history of the U S in tha latter half of the 19th century and early part of the 20th century. The tendency for monopolies to develop in a free market system is as much a social or economic law as the law of gravity is a law of physicics. As I previously pointed out, Linux and Mac are not at this time viable alternatives to Windows. This will change in the future but the Federal goverment will have to make sure that Microsoft does not drive them out of business or control the market to such an extent Linux or Mac cannot increase market share. Their is certainly enough evidence to demonstrate that over the years, Microsoft has driven competitors out of business using illegal tactics
 
Apple shot itself in the foot... that's hardly Microsoft's fault... nor should they have to pay to prop up their competitors. If Apple had opened up their architecture (like IBM did), they could have deepened their market penetration. However, since they "monopolized" their architecture and their OS... they couldn't compete with the multitudes of PC manufacturers.

You see, Apple is also a monopoly. No, they don't have the market share of PCs with Windows, but only Apple produces MacIntosh computers. Only Apple makes an OS for those MacIntosh computers. (Well, ok... you can run Linux on a Mac, but even fewer people do that than with PCs) If I could run out and buy a cheap Mac clone the way I could with a IBM PC clone... I think the market would look very different today, don't you?

Apple wanted to control every aspect of their computers. That is why they have so little market share compared to Windows PCs.

I understand where this is all coming from... but how can MS be held liable for the mistakes of it's competitors?
 

g-paw

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First the monopoly we're talking about is the Operating System, i.e., by controlling 90% of the OS market, Microsoft has a monopoly. And your right, in good part they have this monopoly because Apple decided to be rigidly proprietary but this is not the only reason. Apple may have a monopoly on many of the pieces parts it uses, i.e., if you use a Mac, you'll have to by hardware produced by Mac, but they don't have a monopoly on computers, i.e., there are viable alternatives obviously. Microsoft is not being held liable for the mistakes of their competitors. Rather Microsoft cannot control the OS market via patents and copyrights that prevent programers from developing drivers and programs that will only work on Windows in order to ensure a free, competitive market in Operating Systems. In other words, given they control 90% of the market for any number of reasons, they have to be forced to open this market. Of course they should be compensated fairly for this as I said in a previous post. Monopolies will eventually destroy the free market system if allowed unfettered existence. It is sometimes necessary to sacrifice what benefits one for that which will benefit all and a free market will benefit far more people than Microsoft's monopoly.
 

llama_man

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Another problem with Microsoft is that they can use their dominance of the Operating System market to exert control over every other type of software.

For example, bundling a disk defragmenter and Internet Explorer with Windows might make using the o/s easier for a lot of users (many of whom still don't know that you need to defrag 8O ), but it also has the negative effect of squeezing out indepedent software developers. The majority of PC users won't bother to download (let alone purchase) a defrag program if they already have one bundled with Windows.
 

g-paw

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Must agree with you. On the upside, most of Microsofts products are not the best in class, perhaps an understatement?, which means other vendors can compete on quality.