Weight of seacraft

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In the Arms and Equipment Guide, it says that to calculate speed based
on dray animals, involves a formula based on the total weight of the
vessel in question.

Then they don't give weights for most of the big ships.

Anyone with an informed opinion got /any/ idea on how much a huge,
hulk-style boat would weigh?

 

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Talen wrote:

> In the Arms and Equipment Guide, it says that to calculate speed based
> on dray animals, involves a formula based on the total weight of the
> vessel in question.
>
> Then they don't give weights for most of the big ships.
>
> Anyone with an informed opinion got /any/ idea on how much a huge,
> hulk-style boat would weigh?
>

IMHO, you can't easily apply the rules for draft animal to the rules for
moving ships. The physics and situations are so very different.

A horse pulls a cart across solid ground. If the horse stops, so does
the cart. A ship moves across water, which acts by very different rules,
including a much lower static friction and having nowhere for the horse
to stand.

In real life, even a single mule could pull a barge of several tons up a
canal. You didn't go fast, but you didn't need to. Even if you wanted to
go faster, the barge wasn't built to go faster, so water resistance
becomes a problem. Likewise, a longboat full of sailors (8-10) could
slowly move their 50-100 ton sailing ship in the water. Again, not fast,
but enough to move the ship. Then again, 120 men in three banks of oars
made the trireme the fastest ship in the ancient world.

Finally, we have ship design. A barge is not a galley is not a scowl.
Barges aren't built to go fast. Scowls would be way overpowered by going
fast. Galleys are really built for speed.

If you can give us more information, we can comment more appropriately.
I assume that you want to power a ship via some large or giant beast and
want some rule to follow.

CH

 

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It has been brought to my attention that Clawhound <none@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>
>If you can give us more information, we can comment more appropriately.
>I assume that you want to power a ship via some large or giant beast and
>want some rule to follow.

The ships in question are basically, the size of small villages.
They're floating cities, owned and controlled by halfling families,
and the leaders and shipwrights of these families would be druids.

So, I was wondering exactly /how many druids/ I'd need for their
collective animal companions (of, at best, 9th level or so), to
shove/drag the ship around at a good clip in an emergency.

 

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On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:46:46 GMT, Talen
<talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> scribed into the ether:

>It has been brought to my attention that Clawhound <none@nowhere.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>If you can give us more information, we can comment more appropriately.
>>I assume that you want to power a ship via some large or giant beast and
>>want some rule to follow.
>
>The ships in question are basically, the size of small villages.
>They're floating cities, owned and controlled by halfling families,
>and the leaders and shipwrights of these families would be druids.
>
>So, I was wondering exactly /how many druids/ I'd need for their
>collective animal companions (of, at best, 9th level or so), to
>shove/drag the ship around at a good clip in an emergency.

With dolphins as companions, it really wouldn't take *that* many. These are
animals with enough strength to propel themselves multiple body-lengths out
of the water. 30 or so? Just a guess.

 

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It has been brought to my attention that Matt Frisch
<matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:46:46 GMT, Talen
><talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> scribed into the ether:
>
>>It has been brought to my attention that Clawhound <none@nowhere.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>If you can give us more information, we can comment more appropriately.
>>>I assume that you want to power a ship via some large or giant beast and
>>>want some rule to follow.
>>
>>The ships in question are basically, the size of small villages.
>>They're floating cities, owned and controlled by halfling families,
>>and the leaders and shipwrights of these families would be druids.
>>
>>So, I was wondering exactly /how many druids/ I'd need for their
>>collective animal companions (of, at best, 9th level or so), to
>>shove/drag the ship around at a good clip in an emergency.
>
>With dolphins as companions, it really wouldn't take *that* many. These are
>animals with enough strength to propel themselves multiple body-lengths out
>of the water. 30 or so? Just a guess.

Sharks for preference, with leader druids getting stuff like
Elasmosaurus.

 

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Talen wrote:

> It has been brought to my attention that Clawhound <none@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>If you can give us more information, we can comment more appropriately.
>>I assume that you want to power a ship via some large or giant beast and
>>want some rule to follow.
>
>
> The ships in question are basically, the size of small villages.
> They're floating cities, owned and controlled by halfling families,
> and the leaders and shipwrights of these families would be druids.
>
> So, I was wondering exactly /how many druids/ I'd need for their
> collective animal companions (of, at best, 9th level or so), to
> shove/drag the ship around at a good clip in an emergency.
>

My opinion: Never enough. That city is not built for speed. The faster
it goes, the higher water-resistance will rise. It's not like a hull
that cuts through water. It's more like a barge. So all you'll get is
2-3 knots out of it. 5 knots tops.

For 9th level animals, tops, I'd guess 1/4 knot in optimal conditions.

CH

 

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On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 03:19:04 GMT, Talen
<talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> In the Arms and Equipment Guide, it says that to calculate speed based
> on dray animals, involves a formula based on the total weight of the
> vessel in question.
>
> Then they don't give weights for most of the big ships.
>
> Anyone with an informed opinion got /any/ idea on how much a huge,
> hulk-style boat would weigh?

How huge is huge? Big age-of-sail ships of the line probably displaced
about 2000 tons (it's hard to tell from sources as 'tonnage' in those
days was a sort of volume measure WRT ships). Medieval ships might
have weighed a few hundred tons.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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It has been brought to my attention that Rupert Boleyn
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 03:19:04 GMT, Talen
><talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> In the Arms and Equipment Guide, it says that to calculate speed based
>> on dray animals, involves a formula based on the total weight of the
>> vessel in question.
>>
>> Then they don't give weights for most of the big ships.
>>
>> Anyone with an informed opinion got /any/ idea on how much a huge,
>> hulk-style boat would weigh?
>
>How huge is huge? Big age-of-sail ships of the line probably displaced
>about 2000 tons (it's hard to tell from sources as 'tonnage' in those
>days was a sort of volume measure WRT ships). Medieval ships might
>have weighed a few hundred tons.

The mental image I want is Titanic. A floating township.

 

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On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:46:46 GMT, Talen
<talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> The ships in question are basically, the size of small villages.
> They're floating cities, owned and controlled by halfling families,
> and the leaders and shipwrights of these families would be druids.

Okay, you're looking at probably several tons of weight per halfling
in house and chattels, stores, potable water, the hull to support all
this, more stores of hull materials, and so on. If it's laid out like
a land-based village the tonnage will go up because that's a fairly
inefficient way of building a vessel. If it's like a wooden sailing
ship you could pack more in, and have more people per ton (a first
rate ship of the line had a crew of over 800 men).

> So, I was wondering exactly /how many druids/ I'd need for their
> collective animal companions (of, at best, 9th level or so), to
> shove/drag the ship around at a good clip in an emergency.

A lot.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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It has been brought to my attention that Rupert Boleyn
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:46:46 GMT, Talen
><talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> The ships in question are basically, the size of small villages.
>> They're floating cities, owned and controlled by halfling families,
>> and the leaders and shipwrights of these families would be druids.
>
>Okay, you're looking at probably several tons of weight per halfling
>in house and chattels, stores, potable water, the hull to support all
>this, more stores of hull materials, and so on. If it's laid out like
>a land-based village the tonnage will go up because that's a fairly
>inefficient way of building a vessel. If it's like a wooden sailing
>ship you could pack more in, and have more people per ton (a first
>rate ship of the line had a crew of over 800 men).

No, it's much more efficiently built, but it has village-level
capacities (stores, blacksmitheries, etc.)

>> So, I was wondering exactly /how many druids/ I'd need for their
>> collective animal companions (of, at best, 9th level or so), to
>> shove/drag the ship around at a good clip in an emergency.
>
>A lot.

Yeah, I'm prepared for that. ;p

 

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:32:33 GMT, Talen
<talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> >How huge is huge? Big age-of-sail ships of the line probably displaced
> >about 2000 tons (it's hard to tell from sources as 'tonnage' in those
> >days was a sort of volume measure WRT ships). Medieval ships might
> >have weighed a few hundred tons.
>
> The mental image I want is Titanic. A floating township.

Well if it's one hull it's limited by the technology (or magical
equivalent) available. Even 19th century wooden hulls were limited to
a little over 200 feet long. Past that you need iron frames, at least,
or some serious magic. That's assuming it needs to be ocean-going in
terms of strength, and a traditional shape. A near-circular shape
could be bigger, as long as the hull kept a hear-full draught out to
the edge, so there was bouyancy right to the hull's edge to support
it. Even so you'd not get away with more than 250-300 feet, and maybe
five full decks, and man would she catch the wind (not to mention leak
like a sieve after each storm).

Multiple hulls linked by walk-ways with flex in them can extend as far
as you need, though in a significant storm it would have to break up,
and reform afterwards.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Multiple hulls linked by walk-ways with flex in them can extend as far
> as you need, though in a significant storm it would have to break up,
> and reform afterwards.

China Mieville's _The Scar_ had a floating city like this (bigger,
event).

If I wanted to run with a floating, ocean-going city, I'd have lots of
boats and ships, probably *not* tightly bound together but reasonably
easy to break up. Armada (IIRC the name) was really tightly bound;
there were some ships that could break off, but most were attached to
their neighbors rather thoroughly.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13

 

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:59:32 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> >
> > Multiple hulls linked by walk-ways with flex in them can extend as far
> > as you need, though in a significant storm it would have to break up,
> > and reform afterwards.
>
> China Mieville's _The Scar_ had a floating city like this (bigger,
> event).
>
> If I wanted to run with a floating, ocean-going city, I'd have lots of
> boats and ships, probably *not* tightly bound together but reasonably
> easy to break up. Armada (IIRC the name) was really tightly bound;
> there were some ships that could break off, but most were attached to
> their neighbors rather thoroughly.

I was thinking of the agglomeration in _Snow Crash_, actually.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:59:32 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> >
>> > Multiple hulls linked by walk-ways with flex in them can extend as far
>> > as you need, though in a significant storm it would have to break up,
>> > and reform afterwards.
>>
>> China Mieville's _The Scar_ had a floating city like this (bigger,
>> event).
>>
>> If I wanted to run with a floating, ocean-going city, I'd have lots of
>> boats and ships, probably *not* tightly bound together but reasonably
>> easy to break up. Armada (IIRC the name) was really tightly bound;
>> there were some ships that could break off, but most were attached to
>> their neighbors rather thoroughly.
>
> I was thinking of the agglomeration in _Snow Crash_, actually.

Similar idea, in terms of how it'd feel -- lots of narrow passages
between boats, guylines tying them together, etc.

Armada might still be a better fit for what he's trying to do, if only
because they didn't have the 'single huge ship' to drive it all (but
they were, ahem, working on remedying that).

Both are probably useful reading. I think _Snow Crash_ describes what
it's like there, in terms of conditions, but _The Scar_ better describes
a floating city, and what it's like trying to move the bastard.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13

 

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"Talen" <talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> wrote in message
>news:5eq6415pjkt5hppcdupegs870nh849butv@4ax.com...
> It has been brought to my attention that Rupert Boleyn
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> The mental image I want is Titanic. A floating township.
>

Think about a huge barge or several interconnected barges.
This would allow the use of limited technology of
a typical D&D world. It may also be easier to deal
with as smaller parts.

With several barges, the interconnections would allow
a much more flexible arrangement that waves wouldn't
tear apart. The "town" would be highly organized and
somewhat predictable due to the unusual location that
it is built on. You'd likely have special "roads" that run
through the middle of each barge and "bridges" that
interconnect them.

Moving the monstrosity is something I'll have to think about.
With linked barges, you can't have a normal rowing system.
You might need magical assistance to move it. Maximum speed
would be nothing like a normal barge and it might be limited
due to structural strength limits. Again, special magical assistance
may be the only good way to make it work. Sails would look
rather strange sprouting from the roof tops and interior sails
would get little or no wind.

 

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:50:39 +1200, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
scribed into the ether:

>On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:32:33 GMT, Talen
><talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> >How huge is huge? Big age-of-sail ships of the line probably displaced
>> >about 2000 tons (it's hard to tell from sources as 'tonnage' in those
>> >days was a sort of volume measure WRT ships). Medieval ships might
>> >have weighed a few hundred tons.
>>
>> The mental image I want is Titanic. A floating township.
>
>Well if it's one hull it's limited by the technology (or magical
>equivalent) available. Even 19th century wooden hulls were limited to
>a little over 200 feet long. Past that you need iron frames, at least,
>or some serious magic. That's assuming it needs to be ocean-going in
>terms of strength, and a traditional shape. A near-circular shape
>could be bigger, as long as the hull kept a hear-full draught out to
>the edge, so there was bouyancy right to the hull's edge to support
>it. Even so you'd not get away with more than 250-300 feet, and maybe
>five full decks, and man would she catch the wind (not to mention leak
>like a sieve after each storm).

Actually, could probably fit 7-10 decks...they'd be designed for halflings,
after all.

The actual titanic had 2229 people on it. A village for permenant
habitation would require more open area than a cruise ship, but it is also
halflings who take quite a bit less in resources than a human would to
maintain. Plus, a GIANT portion of the titanic was it's rather primitive
drive system, which in this case would be totally absent.

 

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:20:26 GMT, Matt Frisch
<matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> The actual titanic had 2229 people on it. A village for permenant
> habitation would require more open area than a cruise ship, but it is also
> halflings who take quite a bit less in resources than a human would to
> maintain. Plus, a GIANT portion of the titanic was it's rather primitive
> drive system, which in this case would be totally absent.

The Titanic was built of iron, not wood. Assuming this thing is built
of wood it has significantly limited strength, and thus practical
size.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:45:38 +1200, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
scribed into the ether:

>On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:20:26 GMT, Matt Frisch
><matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> The actual titanic had 2229 people on it. A village for permenant
>> habitation would require more open area than a cruise ship, but it is also
>> halflings who take quite a bit less in resources than a human would to
>> maintain. Plus, a GIANT portion of the titanic was it's rather primitive
>> drive system, which in this case would be totally absent.
>
>The Titanic was built of iron, not wood. Assuming this thing is built
>of wood it has significantly limited strength, and thus practical
>size.

Well, that's a whole other thing...practicality. A verticle cruise ship
would be really lacking in surface area needed for various outdoor
activities, and also for growing food and keeping livestock. Sans
electricity, the bottom decks would also be rather unpleasantly cold and
dark. I think the titanic comparison was more mass + size rather than
shape.

 

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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:37:54 GMT, Matt Frisch
<matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Well, that's a whole other thing...practicality. A verticle cruise ship
> would be really lacking in surface area needed for various outdoor
> activities, and also for growing food and keeping livestock. Sans
> electricity, the bottom decks would also be rather unpleasantly cold and
> dark. I think the titanic comparison was more mass + size rather than
> shape.

That's why I suggested something almost round and fairly flat.
However, I doubt you'd be able to manage more than 250-300' long
without magic or an iron frame (and probably hull).


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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It has been brought to my attention that Rupert Boleyn
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:20:26 GMT, Matt Frisch
><matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> The actual titanic had 2229 people on it. A village for permenant
>> habitation would require more open area than a cruise ship, but it is also
>> halflings who take quite a bit less in resources than a human would to
>> maintain. Plus, a GIANT portion of the titanic was it's rather primitive
>> drive system, which in this case would be totally absent.
>
>The Titanic was built of iron, not wood. Assuming this thing is built
>of wood it has significantly limited strength, and thus practical
>size.

Remember, D&D has magical wood with the strength and hardness of iron,
no?

 

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>
> Remember, D&D has magical wood with the strength and hardness of iron,
> no?

magic is the key factor.

I wouldnt overly worry about trying to calculate in real world terms

id just

1. Assume you can make 5 knots with every 'spellcaster' (add up all
their levels)in the village helping and using up half their spells in
the process.
2. Lower the speed relative to the less spellpower you have available
(ie they are not in the village at the time).
3. Assume by the time you are down to 25% or less of available
spellcaster levels there isnt enough power to get momentum / safely
keep things intact / overcome resistance, etc.

JohnD

 

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JRR_talking wrote:

>>Remember, D&D has magical wood with the strength and hardness of iron,
>>no?
>
>
> magic is the key factor.
>
> I wouldnt overly worry about trying to calculate in real world terms
>
> id just
>
> 1. Assume you can make 5 knots with every 'spellcaster' (add up all
> their levels)in the village helping and using up half their spells in
> the process.
> 2. Lower the speed relative to the less spellpower you have available
> (ie they are not in the village at the time).
> 3. Assume by the time you are down to 25% or less of available
> spellcaster levels there isnt enough power to get momentum / safely
> keep things intact / overcome resistance, etc.
>
> JohnD

Nice little rule. I like it.

CH

 

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Talen <talen@spamspamspamspam.dodo.com.au> typed:

>In the Arms and Equipment Guide, it says that to calculate speed based
>on dray animals, involves a formula based on the total weight of the
>vessel in question.
>
>Then they don't give weights for most of the big ships.
>
>Anyone with an informed opinion got /any/ idea on how much a huge,
>hulk-style boat would weigh?

You can easily work out how much it weighs based on the amount of
water it displaces. Archimedes' principle and all that.

For example, if it's 300' by 100' and has a draught of 20', that's
600000 cu ft = 17000 tons.

If it's a village (which might on land have an area of 1/4 mile
square, plus fields), it'll probably draw more water too, say 40'
(you'll need the extra bulk for structural strength and stability).
That's about 2 million tons.

For drag on that scale, you might be able to use a 2D approximation of
Stokes' Law, but fluid dynamics is not my thing. Try the web.

Not sure how useful that is in practice. I think it would go with the
tide and local currents, regardless of what poor animals you wanted to
drag it.

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org