Weird Hops - 100% Packet Loss, ISP Is No Help

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ColdAtrophy

ColdAtrophy

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Jul 8, 2014
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So I was trying to play Titanfall last night on my Xbox 360. I kept getting the error "Unable to connect. Check your internet connection."

After resetting my modem and router, resetting the console, clearing the console's cache, and restarting the game, I was still getting the same error. I had no problems using my internet to do anything else. I ran some tests on speedtest.net and pingtest.net. Nothing unusual.

So I decided to contact Electronic Arts support. They had me run their UO Trace utility. It's basically just a program that runs a tracert in a way that is easier for people who are unfamiliar with Command Prompt.

This is where I noticed something weird.
Host Name IP Address Hop Ping Packet Loss % Packets R/S
* Unknown Host * 10.223.224.1 2 9ms 100% 0 / 381

According to EA Support, this is the reason why I am experiencing intermittent connectivity issues with their servers. They told me and I quote "you need to contact your ISP to have them forward your ports". That makes no sense to me. I can port forward in my router without my ISPs assistance.

However, today I was able to connect to the Titanfall servers with no issues. This hop is still listed in a current tracert. It is the first hop just past my network. After this, it gets picked up by hosts labeled as being Charter servers. I tried running a tracert to Google.com and I see the same weird hop #2.

NOTE: I ran a tracert through Command Prompt just to make sure UO Trace wasn't causing some weird issue or false data. Results did not differ.

I called Charter (my ISP) Support today. They insisted that they couldn't help me. They told me to contact the console manufacturer (facepalm) and/or the router manufacturer (facepalm). The tech person didn't listen to a single thing I said and insisted that if I can connect to the internet, it simply isn't their problem. She also said that Charter does not block anything or interfere with my traffic in any way.

So, my question to you fine folks:
Why do I have a hop that is showing 100% packet loss just after my router? Is this normal? I am nearly 100% sure that this is indicative of some kind of a problem, but I'm not sure what that problem may be. I also am seeing another similar Unknown Host entry listed as hop #15. There is another one listed as hop #12 with no ip and no packets sent or received. (These tracerts are being run between myself and easo.ea.com) Is someone hijacking my internet traffic? Are there programs that are known to do this? I have recently run AV scans and nothing is coming up. There are, however, two laptops connected to my network. I am running an AV scan on the 2nd PC as we speak.

Please help! I will provide any more information that you may require, just let me know.
 
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100% packetloss means that data didnt' send/receive through that hop point. The hop point in question if your sure the IP is charter's is charter's routers/equipment, but you need to prove that, and point specifically to that one. NO you won't get help with 1st level tech, what you need is to escalate the issue to Tier 2 / Tier 3 (NOC) which would immediately understand what your problem really is, as you properly diagnosed it.

NOW A CAVEAT: IF Charter is OVERSELLING your area, there is a provisioning technique, which can give False-Positive/Falses when doing such things. This is because they use a ondemand system, so they 'drop' (packet loss) a connection point when not needed until it is needed, and then bring it up. Basically this is a cost saving mechanic that they can get a lower end connection (say for your neighborhood) sell to 1000 customers on equipment meant for 100 customers, since all 1000 won't actually be using the connections 100% of the time. This is used in the current VDSL techniques, where it is a virtual setup of the neighborhood connections, but they actually DROP the connection when not having traffic over it / meet certain criteria (aka you downloaded TitanFall then were playing for four hours using up 60GB in 24 hour span so you need to be 'throttled' for other traffic).
 
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When I asked the Tier 1 tech to have my issue escalated, she at first said okay. Then she started telling me that the problem was with my router and that they couldn't help me. I never once throughout the entire conversation felt like she even remotely understood what it was that I was talking about.

If you think I should call back and try to get the case moved up, I will indeed do just that. It's interesting that you brought up the point about overselling. They just bumped up everyone who had 30mbps to 60mbps, free of charge. I'm wondering if this new hop is a part of the system that allowed them to do that without installing enough new ports at the headend to support everyone actually using that much bandwidth.
 
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Well this brings up a interesting point that you need to clarify.

Do you use JUST their Modem/ Router? If so and your wired to their one piece of equipment then the 1st Tier hasn't a clue and proved it. Especially if it was their own equipment.

Do you have their Modem and then your own Router? If so you need to UPGRADE to their provided combo Modem / router and not use your Router at all. The first test to prove 'they are right or wrong' would be to unplug the Router and plug the XBOX directly to the modem, If it still doesn't' work then when you get the tech on the line you can point out the XBOX is ONLy connected to their modem and nothing else and this is what your getting at this hop point that is their equipment point.

Do you have their Modem/Router AND you added your own Router? WHY?!?!?! You should NEVER piggy back router to router, and would be a source of the problem as they said. If their Modem/Router was WIRED only, simply exchange it for a upgrade as a Modem/Router/Wifi is the NORMAL equipment issued, not a add on cost.
 
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I use a Netgear WNDR3400v2. It is mine. They only provided me with a modem. It is not a gateway or router and only has one ethernet port.

I was able to connect and play Titanfall just fine last night and today. However, my real concern here is that weird hop, especially since according to EA, that is the reason why I did and could have connection issues. Perhaps they are wrong and were just looking to shift the blame.

I know better than to use two routers. However, I understand why you can't take for granted that I do or do not know something.


 
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According to that Wikipedia entry, if they were using Carrier-grade NAT, I wouldn't be able to host any online games, nor would anyone else who uses their services. I recall that the tech who installed our service told me he knew of several people who were running their own dedicated gaming servers on Charter internet. Then again, I'm not an expert and he could have just been trying to sell me on the quality of their service.

If your suggestion is the case, does that Unknown Host represent a problem or is it simply normal for Carrier-grade NAT?
 
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When you run this you see it say this on hop 2 but then all the hops past it are fine ?

All this really means is the device in the path either is configured to not respond to TTL going to zero or it is very busy. It is likely it is configure to not talk to you.

This is very common for a firewall to act this way.

Now if the trace route stops as say hop 2 and also all hops beyond that it means the network is either down or again a firewall is blocking the trace. Many times you can run actual traffic though a firewall but traceroute and ping are blocked.

I am going to suspect you had a dumb ass at the tech support dept....what do you expect a network expert at a gaming company.

It is extremely common to find devices in a traceroute that do not respond and/or do not resolve in dns. Wait until you see traceroutes where there are multiple paths that change all the time..and that too is normal.
 
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Can you explain this to a higher degree? I'm not quite sure what the implications of "double NAT'd" would be. The Charter tech did say one thing that struck me as interesting in this regard. She told me that if I was using my own router, I would not be using a Charter IP address. This flies in the face of everything I thought I understood about how this works. I thought that my router received an IP address from the ISP through the modem and assigned internal IPs that all technically use the ISP's assigned IP address but allow for multiple devices on one network. Otherwise, all devices would need their own IP addresses which is where IPv6 comes in. Am I wrong in any part of this?

If their CGN is interfering with my router, what would I need to do? There is no way that I know of that would allow me to have more than one device connected to the modem they provided me with. Should I see if they offer a gateway as standard equipment?

You really might be onto something here. Titanfall is a next-gen developed title with servers provided by Microsoft's datacenters and the game is a Microsoft exclusive. Microsoft stated that they manufactured the Xbox One to be better optimized for IPv6 connections. Perhaps there is some compatibility issue with a last-gen port of a next-gen game designed to be used on IPv6 compatible consoles on a server farm that was designed with IPv6 in mind. There surely must be a reason why this is the only thing I'm having a problem with. I could be connecting dots where there are none through ignorance.
 
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This will be in lay terms, not technical. It doesn't matter which modem and/or router you have or if it's leased from your ISP or purchased. Your ISP will provide you with one IP address - typically a public IP address. This becomes the WAN address on your router. You then configure your router to provide other devices on your LAN IP addresses (private IP addresses). Your router encodes the data packets with your private IP address and WAN address. This way other computers on the internet know to send data back to your network (the WAN address). Your router then decodes the data packet to get the private (LAN) address so it knows which device on your local network to send the data packet to.

Computers and devices on the internet see your WAN (public) IP address, not your local network (private) IP addresses. 10.*.*.* are private IP addresses and don't get routed over the internet. If your first or second hop in a traceroute is 10.223.224.1 as you stated, then something is going on. I'd suspect CGN or a rogue DHCP server on the network somewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_network

In this case, since your ISP may be using CGN, In this case, not only does your LAN IP address get NAT'd, but your WAN IP address will also get NAT'd. Computers on the internet can't see your network at all. All packets from your network will appear to come from your ISP. Your ISP's router would then need to decode the data packets to get your network address in order to forward them to your router. Your router in turn would need to decode/deNAT that packet to get your local network addresss for the device that originally sent the packet. So, your ISP will need to port forward when using CNG.

The other option is a rogue DHCP server on your ISP's network. I discovered a rouge DHCP server on Time-Warner's network quite a few years back. My WAN IP address kept coming up 10.x.x.x on my router. After saving weeks worth of router logs and managing to talk with a top level network manager at Time-Warner, they finally believed me and found the rogue server and were able to take it down.
 
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Would it be possible for me to send you some screenshots privately? I'd like to be armed with as much information as possible when I talk to these techs and I surely do not want to be obviously wrong. I'm convinced that something is amiss here and if you could help me back up my statements, I'd greatly appreciate it.
 
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Correct and that is where NAT comes in, where the Router is making a 'fake' IP for all the computers INSIDE your network to the single Internet IP assigned



Incorrect last I heard. What your describing here is your ISP assigning a BLOCK to your Internet connection, which is common use for Business Class / old T1 Gamer (primary non-business customer) connections using a CSU / DSU Router. In that case you were 'expected' to connect multiple 'devices' (router, PC, Server, etc) that each had their own IP usually based on subnetted account, so they could physically have a high speed connection to your Point Of Entry (PoE - different then POE aka Power Over Ethernet) that then is 'distributed' across your IP set assigned to your location (usually blocks of 16, got as low as 4 in Business Tower Buildings due to the physical limitations on trying to wire multiple floors of a high story building).



Nothing you can do actually, IF this was the case, that is how they 'oversell' the area and set up the region for that service. I am aware it DOES happen (as mentioned I think when discussing VDSL doing like that), but Charter is Cable and a different tech, and also a major carrier, so they have the money to do LARGE SCALE, and would have the access to the "BIG PIPES" to connect off of.

I believe (as I suggested a couple times) you are being 'shafted' by stupid techs, I am on Time Warner, and I had the same options as your saying your using for ISP service. They then doubled, then Quadrupled then just went nuts on our speed, as we originally were buying into the 30Mbps, but they were switching up to the 75Mps equipment so we got added to that, then went and got 150Mbs within the year, now we are at 300Mbps connection and 20Mbps UP for about $95 a month now (up from the original $69.99 we signed up for). The move OVER 30Mbps REQUIRES new 'end point' equipment (aka your Modem is legacy and needs to be swapped out) in conjunction with the overhaul of their own equipment (the CGN part you were discussing, in those Network Operation Centers - NOCs) to provide better speeds. That your still on a MODEM only from Charter (my Mother worked for them out on Long Island and familiar with the equipment they sold) should be demanded to be replaced out for a current model AS NOTED HERE https://www.charter.com/browse/internet-service/internet#charter-wifi

As I said; All ISP business models now provide a single device, Modem, Router and Wifi, solution they manage on their end and kill the need of your own Router (though you could get Range Extenders, but you have to coordinate with your ISP for that).



I was on the TitanFall Beta Testers and know quite intimately how the game worked and alot of how it works. Your completely wrong and lost about IPv6. IPv6 is using a larger address base, and some different ways to 'communicate', but still is based off IP as outlined by IEEE (the international standard maker). Before IPv6 could be implemented by M$, it had to be, and has been for a very long time, implemented HARDWARE wise on the Internet and it's data points. If it wasn't coded for the hardware of the many different internet devices you 'connect through' (hops), then as a International standard it wouldn't work. Once it was implemented at the hardware level (switches, routers, large and small scale clusters, etc.) then software companies startered to code against it, in this case IPv6 has been INTEGRATED into Windows since Vista was released, which makes the backend connections alot simpler for the network layer (referring to the OSI Seven Layer model) to communicate with a larger address base. Again, IF there was such a issue as your implying it would be a GLOBAL issue, not just a 'single to me' issue and surely been something that would not only affect Titanfall but MANY software applications using IPv6 since Vista,.. uhmm like Tom's Hardware Forum's Servers serving out this website your looking at for a BASIC example.

 
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That your a gamer, hosting games, and so on, especially 'heavy' games like Titanfall (50GB installed http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-11-why-the-pc-version-of-titanfall-is-a-48gb-install) I think you should step back a bit and realize that when I said about throttling you are a prime candidate (as well as those "everal people who were running their own dedicated gaming servers"). As noted in Charter's own words: http://www.myaccount.charter.com/customers/support.aspx?supportarticleid=2615

"If a certain area of the network approaches a state of congestion, the network practice will ensure that all customers have equal access to the Internet. This means that the heaviest users over the most recent time period will not impact other users, causing them to have a diminished experience. Congestion management will identify which accounts are using the greatest amounts of bandwidth and those accounts will be temporarily managed, until the period of congestion passes, so no other users are affected. Congestion is not managed based on the online activities, protocols or applications a customer uses; rather it focuses solely on the heaviest users in the most recent measured period, currently 15 minutes. A typical experience might include longer download and upload times, latency in online gaming and overall slower Internet activities, "

AND to also note: . " The No Excessive Use of Bandwidth policy relates to the total usage of an account in a calendar month. If you would like to read more about No Excessive Use, please reference our AUP at charter.com/aup "(https://www.charter.com/browse/content/res_hsi) which says:

"2. Prohibited Activities Using the System, Network, and Service...
• Excessive use of bandwidth that in Charter’s sole opinion, places an unusually large burden on the network or goes above normal usage. Charter has the right to impose limits on excessive bandwidth consumption via any means available to Charter."

And lastly also noted under Usage Limits on the https://www.charter.com/browse/content/network webpage also reaffirms it, BUT also nicely if you scroll to the bottom, they provide a estimated TIME based performance expectation and Latency chart so you can see how well they perform. You can then figure out based on those numbers and times, were you exceeding the limits as those are the 'Commuting" times just like on the highway that become 'full' of vehicles.

OH yeah, also found here http://www.digitallanding.com/high-speed-internet-providers-bandwidth-limits/
"Charter’s data caps range from 150-250 GB per month, depending on your plan. However, unlike some other Internet services providers, if you happen to exceed your cap, you don’t get to pay any overage fees. Instead, your Internet access is simply cut off completely until the next month."
 
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@ Tom Tancredi

Thanks for all the info. I just wanted to let you know that I am definitely not being throttled. I did read those bandwidth usage policies when I first got service. It seems that, in some areas, Charter actively enforces these soft caps. I have read forums posts from people in these areas. Mine is not one of them. I live in a smaller city and I suspect that overuse of their network is not a major problem here. I have gone over these soft caps before and they have never shut off my service or even hinted that they might do so. Network tests reveal that my bandwidth, pings, and overall line quality are consistent and great.

I was playing Titanfall on Xbox 360 with a physical disc. The 360 version won't even allow you to install it because of the way the game is setup to run reading from the disc and the HDD simultaneously for higher throughput, but either way I hadn't downloaded it or anything else of significant size recently.

"That your still on a MODEM only from Charter (my Mother worked for them out on Long Island and familiar with the equipment they sold) should be demanded to be replaced out for a current model AS NOTED HERE"

I checked that link. It states that equipment varies by location. It may simply not be the standard for my area. Either way, I told them when they first installed my internet that I had my own router that I would be using. In the past I have experienced a lack of proper customization options on the gateways provided by the ISP. I have a decent router that I paid good money for when it was new and I have kept it up to date with firmware. I believe they did offer me a router initially but at an extra monthly premium and I didn't see the point then. If they do offer a gateway, might it be configured in such a way that it is operates better with their system?

As for the part about Titanfall and IPv6, it seems I am wrong. As I stated, I probably was simply connecting dots where there are none through ignorance. Thanks for setting me straight.

At any rate, I haven't yet reconnected with Charter but I believe I am going to do so tomorrow. I was talking to a friend of mine about it and they told me that they see the same thing with their connection (different ISP, different city) and it turned out to be a result of the way his ISP had set up their network like you had initially posited when you were talking about an "on demand" system.

Thanks again for the info and the help.

 
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Cool on the rest of the post. Glad I could help point in some direction. As for this question, in MY experience with multiple service vendors, multiple connection types (DSL, Microwave, Satellite, T1, Cable, etc.), and now going onto 25 years... I had to change my mindset as thing changed in the techfield. I was of the same mindset a while ago (just a couple years) but the changed that have occurred for the Cable Industry (with the stiff competition Google and ATT have wrought with 1Gb TO the home, and Verizon Fibre breathing down their necks as the next one to do so) have been leap and bounds in just months at a time. Given that
1) YES the newest equipment by ARRIS is easy to self configure IF your ISP allows it (in my case I can get granular QoS) as in the case of TW does for me.
2) YES you have to have the newer equipment no matter what, as I mentioned if you were given a 'modem' most likely it is the old gen and CAPS at under 30Mbps even if you were paying for 300Mbps service like I am. Your end equipment does need to be updated, I believe, because after 'Modems', was the combo Modem/Router, then Modem/Router/Wifi. They should still given you the Modem/Router/Wifi none the less, but I seen what the 'techs' in the field do, and most of them are old 'hardware cable / telco' folks and these computer services they haven't a clue.
3) YES I paid good money when I got my router, and it worked fine for all my needs and still would, BUT this new setup renders MY choice obsolete; it just happens that way (like DDR2 RAM, Floppy Disks, and many other things) all the time and your a smart guy that knows that, your just having to face it is your time now on this equipment.
4) YES having tested this through moves, supporting others, etc. I have not seen a reason WHY I would need a personal router from this. YES I know you 'paid' for your router and why should you pay for another; true, but you still need a Modem that meets their service demand specs to PROVIDE the service your paying for, and those are 'packaged' all in one devices as I mention. So yeah, it really isn't much a option or choice in order to GET the service you want at the package your paying for unless you can BUY your own NEW one that meets those specs (inclusive for high end COAX capability up to 1Gbps on your COAX WAN port) and make sure it is a 'supported' device under your Charter contract. That of course again still is money out of your pocket, but one way or the other when tech 'shifts' we need to fork over more money to get up to speed with it right?

From experience of two children, wife, then myself all online at the same time on four separate systems, not to include the Kindles being used in between the stuff being done on the computer, I have had streaming video to Wife, WHILE kids stream a totally different site, AND I am playing a FPS, all with no lag when I was at 75Mbps, and now at 300Mps.. well needless to say we can do as we all like with no impact on anyone else. IMO anything over 100Mbps unless you got alot of roommates and family all with multiple devices PER PERSON, is just a waste at this point. It helps speed things like when I have to redownload SkyRIM as I am trying to mod, in just a couple minutes and that is it instead of 'hours' or 'next day' while still able to check email, run multiple webpages in chrome, etc. with no lag or stutter.

 
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