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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Heard someone in our group mention this "Of all the Ravnos I've seen so
far, none of them are really Ravnos...".

I'd have to agree (though there are, like, two, that are more or less
ravnosy).

All these G4 guys have crazy disciplines, some are frippin' 7 caps with
only one inclan at superior, or only two inclan disciplines! I miss the
good ole 6 cap three superior days, and 4 cap three inclan days. Its
not bad neccesarily, but it makes for cyrpt selection HELL.

Try getting noobs into this, they'll be like "man... I don't want my 4
cap ravnos to have pre! What's up with that?"

Furthermore, with vampires like this being made in G4, I have to kick
back my estimate for the need of G5 another frickin' set. that's, like,
5 sets x 9 months = 45 months or december 2008 (I'm thiking we're going
to get Kindred of Africa, and maybe another bloodlines expansion in
here, extending the life line of G4). That's crazy!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Heard someone in our group mention this "Of all the Ravnos I've seen
so
> far, none of them are really Ravnos...".

No kidding. As someone who likes to play ravnos I am pretty
dissappointed with all the chimestry stuff and the ravnos vampires I
saw. Not a lot of in clan disciplines to mention and some more high
blood cost zero stealth actions that don't do much.

Boo.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

actually i like the way the ravnos go from now on:

i love Mata Hari, OBF CHI qui for aus and a crazy special make her
outstanding. i trying to come up with a nice deck only for her (and i
guess im not the only one)...

Tatiana Stepanova s also cool. PRE CHI obf for ani and a neat special
too. again you could build a whole deck only around her. or even in
combination with mata hari in a wild recruit anything from other clans
or even vote (PRE and obf + 2 votes and OBF)...

Alexis Sorokin lines up well with mata hari shaing OBF and CHI and some
good specials. cant complain about her...

Callirus is basic. dont even start to complain about him...

Paul Forrest is the man for the new ravnos. i mean what did the ravnos
really lack in the past? ousting power was one of those things. now
with pretty much PRE and paul they have it. well guess thats bad for
the ravnos is it? i think it makes them at least something more
playable in the tournaments. if you dont like that thought. well play
the G2G3 ravnos...
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

If we go back to the source material, the Ravnos are now effectively a
Bloodline, not a clan. With that in mind, it makes sense that those
that survived the Week of Nightmares would be those who had made strong
ties outside of their clan.
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Heard someone in our group mention this "Of all the Ravnos I've seen
so
> far, none of them are really Ravnos...".
>
> I'd have to agree (though there are, like, two, that are more or less
> ravnosy).
>
> All these G4 guys have crazy disciplines, some are frippin' 7 caps
with
> only one inclan at superior, or only two inclan disciplines! I miss
the
> good ole 6 cap three superior days, and 4 cap three inclan days. Its
> not bad neccesarily, but it makes for cyrpt selection HELL.
>
> Try getting noobs into this, they'll be like "man... I don't want my
4
> cap ravnos to have pre! What's up with that?"
>
> Furthermore, with vampires like this being made in G4, I have to kick
> back my estimate for the need of G5 another frickin' set. that's,
like,
> 5 sets x 9 months = 45 months or december 2008 (I'm thiking we're
going
> to get Kindred of Africa, and maybe another bloodlines expansion in
> here, extending the life line of G4). That's crazy!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<kit3cat2@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:1109022137.681814.317650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > Heard someone in our group mention this "Of all the Ravnos I've seen
> so
> > far, none of them are really Ravnos...".
>
> No kidding. As someone who likes to play ravnos I am pretty
> dissappointed with all the chimestry stuff and the ravnos vampires I
> saw. Not a lot of in clan disciplines to mention and some more high
> blood cost zero stealth actions that don't do much.
>
> Boo.
>

Then better take a look again at Edged Illusion. Pack 20 of them in a deck.
If my 30 cryptic mission deck is capable to raise hell , the ravnos version
will be an armaggedon.

And of course, tumninos is obviously a bad addition for turbo week of
nightmares decks.

But I should agree on the fact that the g4 crypt is really strange. Not sure
what can be done with them .Time will say.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian a écrit :
> Heard someone in our group mention this "Of all the Ravnos I've seen so
> far, none of them are really Ravnos...".
>
> I'd have to agree (though there are, like, two, that are more or less
> ravnosy).
>
> All these G4 guys have crazy disciplines, some are frippin' 7 caps with
> only one inclan at superior, or only two inclan disciplines! I miss the
> good ole 6 cap three superior days, and 4 cap three inclan days. Its
> not bad neccesarily, but it makes for cyrpt selection HELL.
>
> Try getting noobs into this, they'll be like "man... I don't want my 4
> cap ravnos to have pre! What's up with that?"

Furthermore, it only strenghtens my opinion that G4 could have waited :
these vamps (and same for Gios and others) would have made nice
additions to existing "teams" as G3, not unbalancing anything, and G4
indies could have waited some. What, "it would have made a wider choice
of indies than of main clans" ? Well, maybe. But if it opens more gaming
possibilities, I don't see where the trouble would have been, as we'll
seldom put more than 12 vamps in a crypt anyway and most of the combos
couldn't have been played with G2s anyway...

Just my angry 2cents, of course (and yes, I think the set is great ; not
the gestion of G4).
-------------------
Orpheus
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <421a68e7$0$23964$626a14ce@news.free.fr>, Orpheus
<orpheus.13@DEADfree.fr> writes:
>Furthermore, it only strenghtens my opinion that G4 could have waited :
>these vamps (and same for Gios and others) would have made nice
>additions to existing "teams" as G3, not unbalancing anything,

Consider how many vampires a clan has for a standard grouping pair for,
say, the Malkavians. Now consider how many vampires the Ravnos would
have in [2/3] with another seven vampires, or more with Hazimel and
Gharston in there. That's rather significantly more. [1/2] Malkavians,
say, get 24 vampires. [2/3] Ravnos with no group 4 and the new vampires
in there would have 35. Why do the Ravnos need nearly has as many
vampires again as the Malkavians have in a group pair?


A line has to be drawn *somewhere*. The line has been drawn for [1/2]
and [2/3] pairings. Redrawing the line for the Independent clans based
on "Oh, well, it wouldn't hurt, would it?" is the start of slippery
slopes of power escalation. The Independents end up with a wider crypt
selection than any other clan. So then the Camarilla or Sabbat have to
get bumped up again.

Which is exactly the sort of power escalation that a firm hand with
grouping avoids.


Undermining the basic necessary functionality of grouping seems to be
counter-productive. I am not sure why you think it is a good thing to
promote.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1109017087.734558.199100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> writes:
>All these G4 guys have crazy disciplines, some are frippin' 7 caps with
>only one inclan at superior, or only two inclan disciplines! I miss the
>good ole 6 cap three superior days, and 4 cap three inclan days. Its
>not bad neccesarily, but it makes for cyrpt selection HELL.
>
>Try getting noobs into this, they'll be like "man... I don't want my 4
>cap ravnos to have pre! What's up with that?"

You could suggest they buy the freely available Ravnos from Groups 2 and
3. White Wolf seem to be quite happy to reprint sets as and when demand
is there. Why would you want Group 4 to provide the same crypt
construction possibilities as other groups? That would be a little
repetitive.


When we have players on one side saying that Group 4 is too different
from 2 and 3, and players on the other side saying that Group 4 is just
a repeat of earlier groups, it strikes me that a fair balance has been
struck.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:09:31 +0000, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
wrote:

>When we have players on one side saying that Group 4 is too different
>from 2 and 3, and players on the other side saying that Group 4 is just
>a repeat of earlier groups, it strikes me that a fair balance has been
>struck.

Good point, I thought the same when I saw this thread. Some weeks ago,
Black Annis and Mitru were "just revamped Beast and Miller". Now this.

An overview of the indie vampires released clearly shows how much g4
is different from g2. A splash on Fortitude for the Giovanni and
Assamites, a splash of Presence on the Ravnos and more Thaumaturgy on
the Setites. In a nutshell.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Fabio \"Sooner\"" <fabio_sooner@nospamterra.com.br> wrote:
: On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:09:31 +0000, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
: wrote:
: An overview of the indie vampires released clearly shows how much g4
: is different from g2. A splash on Fortitude for the Giovanni and
: Assamites, a splash of Presence on the Ravnos and more Thaumaturgy on
: the Setites. In a nutshell.

At the cost of not getting Clan Disciplines for those new Ravnos. It's
nice that the new Ravnos can be used to build a Presence-Ravnos Decks,
but can they be used to build a Ravnos deck or do you automatically have
to go for a G2-3 crypt?

It's not a biggie for me, I just think that most of the new Vamps are a
wee bit useless and a better job could've been done with them. Some,
otoh, are just brilliant.

//T
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:28:21 -0300, Fabio "Sooner
<fabio_sooner@NOSPAMterra.com.br> wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:09:31 +0000, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> When we have players on one side saying that Group 4 is too different
>> from 2 and 3, and players on the other side saying that Group 4 is just
>> a repeat of earlier groups, it strikes me that a fair balance has been
>> struck.
>
> Good point, I thought the same when I saw this thread. Some weeks ago,
> Black Annis and Mitru were "just revamped Beast and Miller". Now this.

Black Annis and Mitru are still just revamped Beast and Miller.

That is not related to, in any way, the inability for vampires of
specific clans to learn their clan disciplines.

--
Bye,

Daneel
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> [0] Clearly, some cards cater to the standard V:tM disciplines, like the
> Paths, or the new vampire creation cards in KMW. However, there's not a
> lot to say that you couldn't play a Ravnos Potence deck (if such
> vampires were available) and throw in the clan toys to taste.
>

Note that only one of those - Tumninos - actually caters to giving
"in-Clan" disciplines. Waters of Duat makes no compunction about
Disciplines, and Proxy-Kissed and Web-of-Knives Recruit both "waste" cost
points on "out-of-Clan" disciplines.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 22 Feb 2005 11:26:43 GMT, Teemu T Vilen <tvilen@cc.helsinki.fi>
wrote:

>"Fabio \"Sooner\"" <fabio_sooner@nospamterra.com.br> wrote:
>: On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:09:31 +0000, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
>: wrote:
>: An overview of the indie vampires released clearly shows how much g4
>: is different from g2. A splash on Fortitude for the Giovanni and
>: Assamites, a splash of Presence on the Ravnos and more Thaumaturgy on
>: the Setites. In a nutshell.
>
>At the cost of not getting Clan Disciplines for those new Ravnos. It's
>nice that the new Ravnos can be used to build a Presence-Ravnos Decks,
>but can they be used to build a Ravnos deck or do you automatically have
>to go for a G2-3 crypt?

I guess that's the whole point of grouping. Ravnos G2-G3 are still
available. You want a "pure clan" deck, go 2-3. If you want something
different to work with, go g3-g4. That simple.


>It's not a biggie for me, I just think that most of the new Vamps are a
>wee bit useless and a better job could've been done with them. Some,
>otoh, are just brilliant.
>//T

I assume that most vampires are "useless" until someone clever finds a
reason/way to use them effectively. It holds true to many g1 and g2
vamps until today. New cards are always improving "useless" vampires'
chances to shine. See Andrei Puxton before and after Anarchs...

Other than that, I insist that some g1-g2 vampires should not be used
as reference, simply because these should have never been released to
begin with. So we won't get anything as "powerful" in the new groups,
it seems, and I relish it.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Smiling Tom a écrit :
> <kit3cat2@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje
> news:1109022137.681814.317650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Screaming Vermillian wrote:
>>
>>>Heard someone in our group mention this "Of all the Ravnos I've seen
>>>so far, none of them are really Ravnos...".

(...)

> But I should agree on the fact that the g4 crypt is really strange. Not sure
> what can be done with them .Time will say.

they have a new discipline spread, very different from the preceding
ravnos.
chi / pre, who would have expected that from this new set ? :)

But i consider it's a good thing. The G2 ravnos already had a very solid
disc. spread, with very few out of clan... They were pretty good vampire
costwise. And printing some more with the same scheme would have been
a waste imho. Now we have variety, and a lot of things to try ! that's
what expansions are for ! If you miss the old ani/for/chi, you can still
play G2 :)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <opsmlm9izvo6j3lh@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <daniel@eposta.hu>
writes:
>That is not related to, in any way, the inability for vampires of
> specific clans to learn their clan disciplines.

V:TES doesn't have the concept of clan disciplines, in general[0].
Three Ravnos with CEL POT PRO would be no less Ravnos, in V:TES terms,
than three with ANI CHI FOR.

If you want to play Ravnos with ANI CHI FOR, use the Ravnos with those
disciplines. If you want to play Ravnos with "off-clan" (V:tM-wise)
disciplines, use the Ravnos with those disciplines.

However, to have group-pairings simply provide the same "in-clan"
possibilities would mean no-one established would ever need to buy new
groups - they'd simply use the earlier cards which provided all the same
discipline sets. Having different groupings providing different
possibilities, some directly V:tM related, others more unusual, provides
reasons for different groups of people to buy all sorts of different
cards.


If you were a card game publisher, why would you release a set of cards
which was just an old set all over again which offered little new for
players to use? Sounds like a shaky business model to me.


[0] Clearly, some cards cater to the standard V:tM disciplines, like the
Paths, or the new vampire creation cards in KMW. However, there's not a
lot to say that you couldn't play a Ravnos Potence deck (if such
vampires were available) and throw in the clan toys to taste.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <20050222143330.W93883@sidehack.sat.gweep.net>, Gregory
Stuart Pettigrew <etherial@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> writes:
<snip - vampire creators from Kindred Most Wanted>
>Note that only one of those - Tumninos - actually caters to giving
>"in-Clan" disciplines. Waters of Duat makes no compunction about
>Disciplines, and Proxy-Kissed and Web-of-Knives Recruit both "waste" cost
>points on "out-of-Clan" disciplines.

Yeah, I'd wondered about the Potence on Web of Knives. Mildly unusual.
I assume they're some sort of thugs or something in the material.

Still, it provides some interesting options, though pot/qui doesn't work
as well as it might (IMO) and pot/cel is probably more simply achieved
via, well, a different clan, and I'm not sure the Potence options for
the Assamites are that great. Of course, this might be an interesting
way to supplement that and throw in some Discipline cards for the real
vampires. I'm just not entirely sure what it would actually do.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <fson111ct587c20atirrgril7olf35lmu0@4ax.com>, salem
<salem_christ.geo@hotmail.com> writes:
<Web of Knives and Assamite potence>
>Disease/Selective Silence/Torn Signpost/Grapple/Thin Blood/Blur
>
>Your 'core' short-chain combo being Disease/Grapple (hopefully at POT
>for the press), the others being the 'fill-out' flexibility cards.
>Especially when using +str vamps. Like Bootylicious Hill.

Ooh, Selective Silence is double plus good. (I'm slowly working my way
through ELDB to find k l33t r4d cards.) Undue Influence makes me
dribble more, though.

The difficulty here, IMO, is supplementing it with enough Assamites with
Potence - since there are only three in group 2, at 6, 8 and 10 - or
finding yourself with Potence you don't want.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:39:51 +0000, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
wrote:

>In message <fson111ct587c20atirrgril7olf35lmu0@4ax.com>, salem
><salem_christ.geo@hotmail.com> writes:
><Web of Knives and Assamite potence>
>>Disease/Selective Silence/Torn Signpost/Grapple/Thin Blood/Blur
>>
>>Your 'core' short-chain combo being Disease/Grapple (hopefully at POT
>>for the press), the others being the 'fill-out' flexibility cards.
>>Especially when using +str vamps. Like Bootylicious Hill.
>
>Ooh, Selective Silence is double plus good. (I'm slowly working my way
>through ELDB to find k l33t r4d cards.) Undue Influence makes me
>dribble more, though.
>The difficulty here, IMO, is supplementing it with enough Assamites with
>Potence - since there are only three in group 2, at 6, 8 and 10 - or
>finding yourself with Potence you don't want.

Maybe you just found the way - go anarch. You can splash in some Smash
and Grab and Undue Influence to help.

There's also Akram available to fill the old pot/qui/cel crypt, but it
doesn't do jack on size terms.

I expect Selective Silence to decrease the necessity of celerity
splash though. With it you can focus on additional strikes, Psyche!
and a couple of dodges. My main concern with the Assamites was always
the great number of moving parts on any standard qui/cel
combat-oriented deck. You needed some maneuvers / anti-S:CE tech (Thin
Blood at close range, Psyche! anytime) / press / strikes / additionals
/ defense at least. Though many celerity cards fit more than one
category, you still have too many slots do devote if you want a little
flexibity, specially considering that the best anti-S:CE available
comes after a good bunch of cards have been played if you're acting.
Let's see if Selective Silence (and the advent of Michael di Carlo)
help with that.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:36:54 +0000, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
scrawled:

>In message <20050222143330.W93883@sidehack.sat.gweep.net>, Gregory
>Stuart Pettigrew <etherial@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> writes:
><snip - vampire creators from Kindred Most Wanted>
>>Note that only one of those - Tumninos - actually caters to giving
>>"in-Clan" disciplines. Waters of Duat makes no compunction about
>>Disciplines, and Proxy-Kissed and Web-of-Knives Recruit both "waste" cost
>>points on "out-of-Clan" disciplines.
>
>Yeah, I'd wondered about the Potence on Web of Knives. Mildly unusual.
>I assume they're some sort of thugs or something in the material.
>
>Still, it provides some interesting options, though pot/qui doesn't work
>as well as it might (IMO) and pot/cel is probably more simply achieved
>via, well, a different clan, and I'm not sure the Potence options for
>the Assamites are that great. Of course, this might be an interesting
>way to supplement that and throw in some Discipline cards for the real
>vampires. I'm just not entirely sure what it would actually do.

Disease/Selective Silence/Torn Signpost/Grapple/Thin Blood/Blur

Your 'core' short-chain combo being Disease/Grapple (hopefully at POT
for the press), the others being the 'fill-out' flexibility cards.
Especially when using +str vamps. Like Bootylicious Hill.

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:39:51 +0000, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
scrawled:

>In message <fson111ct587c20atirrgril7olf35lmu0@4ax.com>, salem
><salem_christ.geo@hotmail.com> writes:
><Web of Knives and Assamite potence>
>>Disease/Selective Silence/Torn Signpost/Grapple/Thin Blood/Blur
>>
>>Your 'core' short-chain combo being Disease/Grapple (hopefully at POT
>>for the press), the others being the 'fill-out' flexibility cards.
>>Especially when using +str vamps. Like Bootylicious Hill.
>
>Ooh, Selective Silence is double plus good. (I'm slowly working my way
>through ELDB to find k l33t r4d cards.) Undue Influence makes me
>dribble more, though.
>
>The difficulty here, IMO, is supplementing it with enough Assamites with
>Potence - since there are only three in group 2, at 6, 8 and 10 - or
>finding yourself with Potence you don't want.

Eye of Haz, Hand of Conrad, and, of course, the thing that started
this all, Web of Knives Recruit.

....hmm, and if you splash some Silence of Death in (now with added
shiny "10" in the corner!) you might just torpor the odd loser before
he even hits you back.

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
 
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