well are people forgeting something

[Guest]

You sly...two bit little whore....this is a debate about gaming cards vs pro cards. Do you really believe you can sway the debate with your childish little strategy. Its too late monkey spanker....you have posted the benchmarks and I have copied them incase you decide to delete them!!!

!!!!Bang!!!!...you roach....

"no kelder....you can't shoot goblins in wordpad"

 

[noko]

<i><font color=purple><b>The best graphics cards for 3D MAX users are undoubtedly those from NVIDIA GeForce2 family.</b></font color=purple> Note that their performance in 3D MAX depends only on the graphics chip frequency and is in no way influenced by the memory speed or number of rendering pipelines.

</i>
<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/cpu/3dmax-platform/index3.html#9" target="_new">http://www.xbitlabs.com/cpu/3dmax-platform/index3.html#9</A>
You can argue with xbitlabs, maybe they don't know what they are talking about either and are frauds too. I agree with m_keller there, your link is just frankly obsolete, it is comparing a GF quadra not even a GF2 version of the Quaudra with ancient drivers from nVidia. Do you have any more recent and accurate reviews that would be more useful? Why should I believe what you say? Do you do professional 3d graphics? If you don't then you are in the same shoes as me.

Well to eat your <b>C kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade n II</b>

 

[Guest]

This was never pro vs gaming cards. It was about a game card being a viable alternative to a $1000+ card. Althogh someone would have to be nuts not to get the best pro cards out there if htey had the money. nvidia cards vs oxygen cards goes to nvidia hands down considering the benchmarks are equal or some go to nvidia and also considering you save at least $300 going nvidia.

 

[Guest]

just to save you some reading tonestar
"The today's graphics market offers two types of graphics accelerators: the so called gaming and professional ones. According to a widely spread opinion, professional graphics cards are absolutely useless for gaming needs and very efficient for all sorts of 3D modeling applications, while the gaming cards can suit only for playing games. We would like to stress right away that in this article we do not intend to argue about the abilities of professional graphics accelerators in other 3D modeling applications. We would only like to disagree with the general statement about professional graphics cards being much more powerful than the gaming ones or being a must for those who want to work in 3DMAX.

A few months ago we got hold of a 700-dollar Oxygen GVX1, which turned out slower in 3DMAX than NVIDIA GeForce256, despite an external geometric coprocessor (and the corresponding support in the drivers). It is exactly because of the lower performance compared to the gaming accelerators that we didn't include any professional graphics cards in our today's tests. "

Those paragraphs say it all don't they? It is indeed time for you to sit down.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by m_kelder on 06/06/01 11:41 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[juin]

Why you flame him does you will sleep better tonight or what.Respect people and they will do the same.

Kelder will just flame you.No one get somthing form this.
A forum is suppost to be a discussion on a subject so each personne can learn from eacg others.Right now is like a clan war.
PRO intel vs PRO AMD.

 

[Guest]

Umm....noko...none of these card are good enough for professional CAD or Animation. At the hobbiest level you can debate all you like. There are other factors to like driver optimisation and stability as well as full open gl compliance. Well what do have to say about the benchmarks? Do you know how they relate to the work method of a draftsperson or animator? Isn't doubling the performance in geometry and lighting a worthy difference between the games and pro platfroms....you see, even kelder has relised his own stupidity. Thank god he at least believes himself.

And yes noko, I am an engineer. I spend everyday working with CAD. My draftspeople have tried to take work home to use on the tnt2's and gf2's but it was impossible. It all depends what level your at. Trust me, if kelder was creating anything worth looking at he'd be forced to get a pro card. That why anyone from a mile away can tell he's a phony. If I was a game playing 3D hobbiest it wouldn't matter all that much which of those game cards I picked, it would be more than likely that my amateurish 3D skills could be handled by any of them. You see, its like getting a race car driver to test cheap 4 cylinder asian budget cars. It will never win no matter which one he picks.


"no kelder....you can't shoot goblins in wordpad"

 

[noko]

Why are you comparing a professional card to a commercial card anyways??

FireGL2 lowest cost on PriceWatch.com - $965

FireGL4 - $1751

Oxygen VX1 Pro - $604

Oxygen GVX420 - $1374

Gloria III - $849

Looks like todays gaming cards beats last years professional cards especially if it is a GF2. If profesionals where able to use those old profesional cards last year I am sure m_kelder can use a gaming card today with just as good results if not better due to the faster processors. What is the big deal anyways, everything m_kelder says is right on the money as far as I see it. I sure hope the $1000 cards today beats the gaming cards, that doesn't mean you can't do a professional job using a gaming card particualary with todays advance gaming cards. What is your point?

Well to eat your <b>C kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade n II</b>

 

[AeroSnoop]

You need to get a life as you obviously have an obsession with Kelder. Btw - I'm still waiting to see some of this professional work that you do.

 

[Guest]

"driver optimisation and stability as well as full open gl compliance"

non issue for nvidia with a -> .

"you see, even kelder has relised his own stupidity" stop trying to put words in my mouth, I have never said that a geforce 2 is better than any pro card out there, never ever said that.

"I am an engineer. I spend everyday working with CAD" very different from animation, not nearly the poly's per object and all these cards are "opengl compliant" and thus have dual plane. We never said anything about tnt2's. Cad is more video intensive than other 3d apps. An ametuer is the one that usually uses more poly's than what are needed and thus hit the limit sooner so what you said about an ametuer not need more power is ridiculous. But it is more benificial for an ametuer to have lesser hardware so he learns to keep his poly's down sooner.

Simply, a Cad user doesn't have much to say for 3d artists. Nothing I say is derived by me trying to fool people into thinking that a geforce will beat every pro card out there. Our previous discussions, if you can call them that, have been geforce vs oxygen and now that I have once again proven that oxygen cards are basically obsolete you try and move the argument to high end pro cards vs geforce2's which there is no argument.

 

[noko]

Thanks for telling me you work with engineers and do CAD work, which sounds like 3d cad work to me. Isn't that more intense then doing work in 3dsMax? Seems like cpu power would rule there as well. So do you use MP workstations and what professional cards do you use? If I was a professional game developer meaning using low polygon models wouldn't I use a gaming card to begin with? Seems like professionals would use the best tools of the trade within budget constraints. Which maybe will be a game card for professional game developement. If I was going to do alot of photoshop work a Matrox 450 may be the ideal professional tool of the trade. My point is you don't need the fastest, latest high tech stuff to be a professional. It maybe nice to have the fastest tool but that doesn't necessarily make a professional. A true professional or expert will be able to do more with less because he/she does know his/her trade better. I agree with you that somethings do require the latest and up to date technology but must things don't. Not having them doesn't make you a non professional or a fraud. In your line of work you know what it takes to get the job done with what ever time constraints are imposed. Other people maybe be able to do it with less equipement and maybe take longer in the process but with just as good as quality. If you compare the professional tools of 5 years ago that got the job done for 3d graphics, that GF2 MX and T-Bird system that m_kelder is building will just blow them away. You know, m_kelder is smart after all.

Well to eat your <b>C kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade n II</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 06/07/01 00:29 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

"no kelder....you can't shoot goblins in wordpad"

I liked your other ones better...

seems you've seen the light now or are you emailing xbit calling them fruads?

 

[noko]

Looks like Omid Rahmat will be doing a High End OpenGL review next week on the top professional cards of upwards of $2000. I am glad some people can afford those cards. Of coarse the performance of the newest professional cards in polygon handling will be higher then the non professional cards. In two years time the game cards will beat these as well making them look like toys. Bottom line is use what you got and can afford and do the best job you can and keep your head up high because your hard working effort will beat anyones mediocre effort using the best tools .

Well to eat your <b>C kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade n II</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 06/07/01 01:44 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[noko]

Have you ordered your MX yet? Gainward is coming out with a 270mhz MX400 with 3.3ns ram!!! Sounds like a real screamer for 3dsMax to me. Xbits Labs testing indicates it is the speed of the GPU that determines its speed in 3dsMax, not the memory, not the number of pipelines. I know you want to overclock your MX to the hill (smart move as long as you don't burn it up) but maybe getting a card already there will be a better choice. The tests done in 3dsMax using the MX was at 175mhz, just think of what this Gainward card would do at 270mhz! Virtually 100mhz faster.

Well to eat your <b>C kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade n II</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 06/07/01 01:56 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

[-peep-], already paid for... maybe that would be a nice cheap upgrade in a bit.

 

[Guest]

Check out the cooling section, I posted what I did to my case.

 

[Guest]

"My point is you don't need the fastest, latest high tech stuff to be a professional. It maybe nice to have the fastest tool but that doesn't necessarily make a professional."

I'll second to that. Many years ago, I was a student that just discovered 3D Studio 3.0 (yes, pirated of course). Did a lot of rendering just for my amusement. One day a local Belgian computer magazine organized an animation contest with Autodesk (no Kinetix yet back then). I decided to give it a try and made a 2,5 minute animation called 'Interrupt conflict - War of the jumpers'.. A parody to Star Wars inside the computer.

Guess what ? I won against many professional teams that had this immensely powerfull workstations, rendering farms, worked with 4+ people on one animations.

You know what computer I had ? A 486-66 with 4 (yes FOUR) MB ram. 3DS wasnt even supposed to work on anything less than 8. (btw, rendering just one 320x200 frame took about 15 mins.. go ahead and count my total rendering time.. took me all summer)


Was I a professional ? No. Did I have professional hardware ? LOL, hell no ! Did I produce a professional looking animation ? Apparently so.

The point is, its not the tools that make one skilled. Sure I would have loved a better setup back then (I was drooling over 16 Mb RAM and a 500 Mb harddisk), but it wouldnt have produced any better result.. just would have taken me a bit less time.

(btw, in case you're wondering, I won a 3DS R4 package, a card that allowed me to produce S-VHS video animations (very, very expensive at that time, like $3000, and much better than those frame-by-frame VCR things), and some other stuff.. I gave up on animation though, once MAX 1 came out..

---- Owner of the only Dell computer with a AMD chip

 

[noko]

Thanks for the input, I've seen that happen many times in my life. Our internal drive can conquer many obsticles. I wonder if the non winning participants complained because they didn't have the most up to date hardware? Really that is not what wins, it is the person that does the work. I hope you get back into animations by the way.

Well to eat your <b>C kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade n II</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 06/07/01 03:52 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

"I wonder if the non winning participants complained because they didn't have the most up to date hardware? "

No, but they didnt believe me either when I told them on what computer I had rendered the thing.. They all used Pentium 66's with 64+ (!!) Mb ram. The team that ended second, had 20 of these machines in a rendering farm.

Also, I have to admit, when I saw the other animations, there were many that were so good, I could not have made them.. I just had the better and more original idea

---- Owner of the only Dell computer with a AMD chip

 

[Guest]

Gee...I've heard it all now....how can I argue with the logic...wow bbaeyens...you beat a handlefull of professionals with a 20 machine setup who have dedicated their whole existance to 3D animation...and you were just a hobbiest...wow...and your one little tiny machine handled the kind of animation that outstripped the mega professionals of first place ....and you left behind the whole feature film industry and all that money....to do what? You turned your back on the biggest break of your life....the voices in your head told you Jesus was coming back didn't they...and you had to be ready for that...you couldn't go to earn heaps of dough and keep creating award winning animations...not when Jesus was coming back!!!

Freakin hell...at least when kelder lies he attempts to make it believeable.

I got to question myself. Why in f%uckin hell am I talking to you monkey spankers for?

Imagine a large scene, say a city on the waterfront, and a few animated characters, with cars and lights in motion etc. Are you going to tell me that you g2mx is gonna handle all those trajectories, polygons, lights, spacewarps, particles etc?

If your modeling a bong that doesn't move to impress your friends, it doesn't mean your a professional. Sorry to tell you. While I'm at it...father christmas and the easter bunny don't really exist either. Sorry...here have a tissue...

Umm...kelder...maybe you ought to ring up Elsa and 3Dlabs and tell them theres no need for them to do business anymore cos your MX is here....hehehehe....while your at it ring up ILM, Pixar and Blue Sky and tell them despite all the professional broadcast work they've done, that there all stupid and got ripped off when they could have just bought an MX....

hehehehehe...thanks for making me laugh.....really...

"no kelder....you can't shoot goblins in wordpad"

 

[Guest]

hey tonestar, why don't you post something worth while, I mean really...

"Imagine a large scene, say a city on the waterfront, and a few animated characters, with cars and lights in motion etc. Are you going to tell me that you g2mx is gonna handle all those trajectories, polygons, lights, spacewarps, particles etc?"

Dumbass, you don't have everything at rendering poly levels all at once and you don't allways need everything viewed. You need to know at least a little bit about 3d animation before you post something stupid like that!

"Umm...kelder...maybe you ought to ring up Elsa and 3Dlabs and tell them theres no need for them to do business anymore cos your MX is here....hehehehe....while your at it ring up ILM, Pixar and Blue Sky and tell them despite all the professional broadcast work they've done, that there all stupid and got ripped off when they could have just bought an MX..."

Now you are trying to put more words in my mouth. That is just your poor understanding on what I am trying to teach you. You obviously are beyond help.

 

[Guest]

Go on, tonestar, you're just flattering me. I dont care if you believe me. Go ask Autodesk or CM Magazine in Belgium.

"and you left behind the whole feature film industry and all that money"

Film industry ? Get real..
AS for money.. I got an official 3ds licence I could not sell, and a card that has been obsolete for years.

"....to do what? You turned your back on the biggest break of your life."

Really ? I know what I can, and what I cant. I won, because I had a good idea, not because Im such an excellent artist.. far from.. I cant draw anything, except straight geometric things like the computer inside I did, and architectural designs/animation which I also did. Dont ask me te make a toy-story like animation cause I cant draw anything "curbed", organic, and have it move in a natural looking way. I spent like 50% of my time on that animation trying to get the camera paths in such a way they wouldnt jerk and produced a fluid movement.

And.. I have had bigger "breaks in my life", dont worry.

---- Owner of the only Dell computer with a AMD chip

 

[Guest]

"Dumbass, you don't have everything at rendering poly levels all at once and you don't allways need everything viewed."
.....if you remember I was the one who told you that, eg. command/display panel in max ...remember back in your original post, the 3D cards one? You know, the one where you passed up a GVX1 for a $120?

"no kelder....you can't shoot goblins in wordpad"

 

[noko]

Wasn't the Blair Witch Project done with an ultra low budget and with very commercial equipement, by first timers? Answer, <b>YES</b>. Well the movie beat a number of so called professional movies out there in the box office as well, also being very original and got the story told better then 90% of those so called professional movies. Come on, everyone knows that most 3d programs you don't have to render everything when you move around by using bounding boxes as needed, or just rendering the selected object when you move. That MX card beats those very high price professional cards of yester year anyways. Isn't the real rendering done by the cpu/program anyways, meaning that sceen could be produced by virtually any graphics card, it just may take longer to move around when modelling. As for rendering, I use to take weeks on my 68000 chip on my Amiga to render simple raytraced objects. It got the job done, it just took longer. We are not talkin about a 68000 chip here now either, still that Amiga could have rendered what you have describe, it just might take a few years to do it. Wise person says, a smart person can take little information and derive the right answer, a fool with a preponderance of facts stumbles over even the smallest conclusion. Come on and lighten up a little. What you do is specific isn't it as in architecture? Disney probably wouldn't use you to develope the next Disney 3d character right? Wrong profession, they may use m_kelder instead because he is more able to do organic shapes vice the straight line engineering stuff that you do (which I maybe wrong at, you might be able to do organic modelling, I don't know). Meaning there are many different type of professionals in the 3d field and they don't have to have your equipment or your criteria to get the job done.

Well to eat your <b>C kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade n II</b>

 

[killall]

and id like to see a 1.7ghz athlon mp but thats not the point...

you do not strengthen the weak by weakening the strong

 

[Guest]

Was the blair which an animated feature? If the whole award rested on a good story it would be a script writing competition. Despite your story you still have to animate the scene, the expression and the emotion. He claimed he did all of this against teams who have comited their lives and their finances to this objective and he beat them all. He claimed all this happened during Max's early release....if he stuck with it he would have made packets as during that period the scene wasn't swamped by animators like it is now. Sorry the pieces don't make up the puzzle.

Ok, I have talked about rendering so many times now everyone must be sick of it. Geometry proccesing is the issue...mx doesn't meet professional requirements in that most crucial category. Bounding boxes are almost useless when animating..you may as well hide the object as you can not derive an accurate animation trajectory with this method. However turning off objects is often no option eg. car exploding with characters running away and shop fronts collapsing...they have to be animated in relation to each other...hence the use of a pro 3D card. Hence you can pick kelder as an ametuer from a mile away.

Yes rendering is cpu intensive....most people will render overnight when they are NOT at their machine...if rendering for materials usually they set a small screen size a render one frame.
Kelder has no hope of ever attaining employment in this field. There are so many people just at this forum alone who have no intention of persueing an animating career yet still know alot, lot more about it than kelder. He will spend years attempting to educate himself, years searching for employment only to end up flipping burgers at McDonalds.

He talks about artistic skills which is a story in itself. Succesful artists are compelled to create their work, compelled to learn to create with the software and compelled to display it. Kelder has nothing to display.

Kelders issues are psycological...he likes to ride the coat tails of the hardware manufactures, to come here and profes to the ignorant, to be asked questions and recieve feelings of self worth when he responds, regardless of wether his answers are right or wrong...it doesn't matter to him. I suspect kelder to be rather young and a bit of a dreamer, thats ok, but he would do well to focus on another career where there aren't so many good minds to compete with.

"no kelder....you can't shoot goblins in wordpad"