Question What is your opinion on Framework Laptops?

[IDProG]

I think they will fail.

Framework laptops are solving problems that don't really exist.

It legitimately only has 1 positive thing: Unit upgradability. But even this positive thing is not purely positive, because they come with an insane price tag.

IMO, current problems with laptops are:
- Efficiency
Current laptops have horrible efficiency. There are two ways to solve this: One, by optimizing x86 architecture (which they are currently doing); Two, by using an APU instead of a CPU + GPU. I believe APUs will be laptops' future. At the same performance, an APU is easier to cool, more efficient, and cheaper.
- Battery
Two problems with this: One, the battery isn't replaceable. Well, some are, but the designs are different each laptop that people just don't bother with the extra cost. I think a way to solve this is to standardize the battery shape. Two, the battery is too small. The cause of this is a ridiculous law that prevents devices with >99Wh battery capacity to go into airplanes. Some manufacturers have said that they wanted to add more battery, but couldn't because of the stupid law. I think it's great if the limitation can be increased to 199Wh or something, so laptops can have better battery life.

Framework laptops solve none of those and actually add to the problems:
- Price
Framework laptops are ridiculously expensive. $1400 for a $900 laptop. The expansion cards are also ridiculously expensive.
- Proprietary
Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I believe Framework's parts are proprietary. Even if they aren't intentionally, they basically are as of now, as no one else has ever made parts for Framework laptops. Not a good look, is it.

 

[thestryker]

- Efficiency
Current laptops have horrible efficiency. There are two ways to solve this: One, by optimizing x86 architecture (which they are currently doing); Two, by using an APU instead of a CPU + GPU. I believe APUs will be laptops' future. At the same performance, an APU is easier to cool, more efficient, and cheaper.

Intel and AMD's laptop processors are all APUs, and you won't see more powerful graphics in them until DRAM starts being on package which kills upgradability or repairability.

- Battery
Two problems with this: One, the battery isn't replaceable. Well, some are, but the designs are different each laptop that people just don't bother with the extra cost. I think a way to solve this is to standardize the battery shape. Two, the battery is too small. The cause of this is a ridiculous law that prevents devices with >99Wh battery capacity to go into airplanes. Some manufacturers have said that they wanted to add more battery, but couldn't because of the stupid law. I think it's great if the limitation can be increased to 199Wh or something, so laptops can have better battery life.

You cannot standardize battery shape without standardizing everything about laptops or making them bigger again. Putting in huge batteries is a pretty poor solution to the problems at hand.

- Price
Framework laptops are ridiculously expensive. $1400 for a $900 laptop. The expansion cards are also ridiculously expensive.

The new ones start at DIY $849/Prebuilt $1049, but the original ones did start at $1399 though they're currently discounted. This puts the pricing just about in line with what's on the market given the quality of the screen etc. The expansion cards also don't really seem to be all that expensive aside from the storage ones.

- Proprietary
Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I believe Framework's parts are proprietary. Even if they aren't intentionally, they basically are as of now, as no one else has ever made parts for Framework laptops. Not a good look, is it.

They're not proprietary at all, but it takes time to make things which require custom designs. I'd imagine most companies weren't particularly hot on designing stuff during the first iteration so we may see more down the road.

I think they will fail.

Framework laptops are solving problems that don't really exist.

The original price point mostly aimed it at enthusiasts, but the current pricing seems a lot better and should open it up for a wider market. They've also got the 16" version coming and some discrete graphics options with it which should open things up more. They also teamed up with Cooler Master to make a case for the motherboards so you can make a SFF PC out of it upon upgrading.

E-waste is a significant problem, and if Framework is successful it ought to push the needle for the whole industry. This is a very big deal for the environment should it be successful. Repairability and reusability are extremely important here.

I think their success could go either way, but it seems like they've got a good chance as long as they keep expanding in the right ways.

 

[hotaru.hino]

Framework laptops are solving problems that don't really exist.

One would argue there are multiple problems with the current laptop industry, especially when it comes to reparability, upgradability, and e-waste.

It legitimately only has 1 positive thing: Unit upgradability. But even this positive thing is not purely positive, because they come with an insane price tag.

Because they're not a high-volume hardware vendor. They're also targeting the "ultrabook" market, which historically has always been more expensive for some reason.

IMO, current problems with laptops are:
- Efficiency
Current laptops have horrible efficiency. There are two ways to solve this: One, by optimizing x86 architecture (which they are currently doing); Two, by using an APU instead of a CPU + GPU. I believe APUs will be laptops' future. At the same performance, an APU is easier to cool, more efficient, and cheaper.

A lot of laptops that get really good battery life already are "APUs". They just don't have a GPU that'll set records.

And while they won't be able to touch Apple's numbers, there are a few x86 based laptops that get close

- Battery
Two problems with this: One, the battery isn't replaceable. Well, some are, but the designs are different each laptop that people just don't bother with the extra cost. I think a way to solve this is to standardize the battery shape. Two, the battery is too small. The cause of this is a ridiculous law that prevents devices with >99Wh battery capacity to go into airplanes. Some manufacturers have said that they wanted to add more battery, but couldn't because of the stupid law. I think it's great if the limitation can be increased to 199Wh or something, so laptops can have better battery life.

The reason why there's a limitation on battery size is safety. If the battery catches fire, higher capacity batteries have a tendency to be more energetic with their "explosions." I don't know about you, but I'd rather not be in a sealed tube at 30,000 feet in the air if a battery goes off and it becomes too much to contain.

So until we have batteries that are more or less fail safe, this will be a limitation.

Framework laptops solve none of those and actually add to the problems:
- Price
Framework laptops are ridiculously expensive. $1400 for a $900 laptop. The expansion cards are also ridiculously expensive.

Where are you seeing a $1400 laptop on Framework that you can get an equivalent for $900?

Going by nothing else, I picked out their Framework 13 laptop using the "Performance" model, which costs $1469 and has the following specs:

• Core i7-1360P
• 16 GB of RAM
• 512GB of storage
• 61 W-Hr battery

Looking at the Dell XPS 13 Plus, it has a 55W-Hr battery life and costs $30 more.

Lenovo has the X1 Nano Gen 3 is $1511.30, but this is the sale price, they originally listed it at $2159.00. Also they didn't list the battery capacity (or I'm not seeing it)

I can't find something from HP with near-equivalent specs, so I'm not going to bother

- Proprietary
Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I believe Framework's parts are proprietary. Even if they aren't intentionally, they basically are as of now, as no one else has ever made parts for Framework laptops. Not a good look, is it.

They open sourced their motherboard, including how to make a case for it. They're also working on getting an open source UEFI in their product. And even if you don't have something to fill in one of those upgradable bits, the port itself is ultimately USB-C.

So do I think Framework will fail? No. Even if one of the major system builders goes all in on right-to-repair and manages to drive them out of business, the whole point of Framework was to prove you could have an ultrabook laptop with the same modularity, reparability, upgradability, and reusability as a desktop.

 

[BFG-9000]

Clevo has been making laptops with replaceable CPUs and MXM-standard format GPUs for awhile, but the Framework allows you at any time to even change motherboard platforms too, so you can for example go from Intel to AMD.

The motherboard and GPU modules are proprietary, but the idea is after you upgrade your laptop, the old motherboard can be repurposed as a NUC-ish SFF desktop and old GPUs could be put into an eGPU module for other, lesser laptops. The main reason these are interesting is the prices of the components seem completely fair, and the desktop case shockingly cheap, or even free if you have a 3D printer as they posted up the design for everyone.

 

[hotaru.hino]

The thing with the whole "proprietary" parts is I feel like this is like saying the IBM 5150 PC is proprietary, because nobody else was using anything they were.

Framework has intentions on making documentation of their components open for anyone to use. Whether or not anyone else wants to make components following those specifications is another thing.

 

[punkncat]

Apparently, LTT sees enough promise in them to be a major contributor. I think he owns part if not all of the operation.

 

[hotaru.hino]

Apparently, LTT sees enough promise in them to be a major contributor. I think he owns part if not all of the operation.

He apparently regrets not investing more into the company, if the last video he did on it a few months ago is anything to go by.

 

[LordVile]

The entire concept is dumb and a bit predatory on people who don’t know better. Is a basic laptop and is as upgradable/repairable as one but at 1.5x the price.

(It’s also less repairable than a MacBook and if one of the ports is damaged that’s a minimum £500 mainboard which is significantly more than it is for basically any other mainboard)

 

[LordVile]

Clevo has been making laptops with replaceable CPUs and MXM-standard format GPUs for awhile, but the Framework allows you at any time to even change motherboard platforms too, so you can for example go from Intel to AMD.

The motherboard and GPU modules are proprietary, but the idea is after you upgrade your laptop, the old motherboard can be repurposed as a NUC-ish SFF desktop and old GPUs could be put into an eGPU module for other, lesser laptops. The main reason these are interesting is the prices of the components seem completely fair, and the desktop case shockingly cheap, or even free if you have a 3D printer as they posted up the design for everyone.

But the mainboards are stupidly overpriced and by the time you’re done with one mainboard it likely won’t be worth making into a SFF PC. Laptops are generally ran until they either break or get too slow to be practical.

 

[hotaru.hino]

The entire concept is dumb and a bit predatory on people who don’t know better. Is a basic laptop and is as upgradable/repairable as one but at 1.5x the price.

I'm pretty sure the people buying this know what they're getting into, because you kind of have to go out of way to know it even exists.

Price wise it's about the same as any other ultrabook laptop.

(It’s also less repairable than a MacBook and if one of the ports is damaged that’s a minimum £500 mainboard which is significantly more than it is for basically any other mainboard)

Hm...

Scenario	Macbook	Framework
RAM is broken	Replace entire computer	Replace RAM module
Storage is broken	Replace entire computer or replace with Apple's proprietary SSD	Replace with the industry standard M.2 2280 SSD
Want more storage	Replace entire computer or replace with Apple's proprietary SSD	Upgrade with the industry standard M.2 2280 SSD
Want more RAM	Replace entire computer	Upgrade RAM module(s)
Replace battery	Requires isopropyl alcohol and care to remove	Just unplug and unscrew the thing
Replace screen	Need to replace the entire display assembly	Need to only replace the display itself

Also where can you find new mainboards for modern (i.e., within 1-2 years) laptops for less than £500?

 

[LordVile]

I'm pretty sure the people buying this know what they're getting into, because you kind of have to go out of way to know it even exists.

Price wise it's about the same as any other ultrabook laptop.


Hm...

Scenario	Macbook	Framework
RAM is broken	Replace entire computer	Replace RAM module
Storage is broken	Replace entire computer or replace with Apple's proprietary SSD	Replace with the industry standard M.2 2280 SSD
Want more storage	Replace entire computer or replace with Apple's proprietary SSD	Upgrade with the industry standard M.2 2280 SSD
Want more RAM	Replace entire computer	Upgrade RAM module(s)
Replace battery	Requires isopropyl alcohol and care to remove	Just unplug and unscrew the thing
Replace screen	Need to replace the entire display assembly	Need to only replace the display itself

Also where can you find new mainboards for modern (i.e., within 1-2 years) laptops for less than £500?

Few issues here. RAM and storage literally never break and you can buy replacement logic boards from apple. You can also buy the display from apple. The battery is also attached via pull tabs, no alcohol required. The framework display is also poor quality.

If a port breaks on framework you need to buy an entire new mainboard which costs as much as a new laptop. A Logic board from apple for equivalent performance is about 1/3 the price of the framework and as you say that comes with an SSD and memory. You're also not taking into account that the Mac is an ultrabook whereas the framework is a standard size laptop which by default also have revocable RAM and storage as they don't have size constraints.

Overall if you want a framework just buy a bog standard laptop for $600-800. It will likely be better than the framework in nearly every way and be just as repairable.

 

[thestryker]

I know engaging like this is probably a mistake, but just in case someone is scrolling through this thread and believes this person...

Few issues here. RAM and storage literally never break

How to tell someone knows absolutely nothing in one quick sentence.

You can also buy the display from apple.

So? The point was that you have to buy the entire display assembly which means it costs 2x+ what a replacement from Framework does. I believe you can just buy the panel from aliexpress et al, but we're talking official replacements here.

The battery is also attached via pull tabs, no alcohol required.

The M1 (couldn't be bothered to see about M2) uses adhesive tabs for securing the battery and requires you to remove several parts to get to it depending on which you have Pro fewer than Air.

The framework display is also poor quality.

Compared to? As far as other laptops out there the screen is actually on the good side for a non OLED. It's very similar to, if not the same screen as, the Surface Laptop.

A Logic board from apple for equivalent performance is about 1/3 the price of the framework and as you say that comes with an SSD and memory.

8GB/128GB M1 MBA logic board at ifixit is listed as $399. Framework i7-1165G7 motherboard is the same price.

You're also not taking into account that the Mac is an ultrabook whereas the framework is a standard size laptop which by default also have revocable RAM and storage as they don't have size constraints.

Framework is definitely a thin and light, and if your only definition of ultrabook is the size of the MBA then nobody sells them except apple.

Overall if you want a framework just buy a bog standard laptop for $600-800. It will likely be better than the framework in nearly every way and be just as repairable.

This is just flat out untrue you will not find the level of performance in something that cheap unless there's some sort of big sale going on. There are so few laptops that rise to the level of repairability as the Framework to suggest otherwise is a bad joke.

The original release of the Framework laptops were absolutely overpriced for what they were, but it was also their first attempt. The current pricing isn't very far off of what you'd expect from an equivalent performance/features laptop (though Framework charges a lot for Windows so if you do the DIY version you can save a lot).

 

[USAFRet]

Few issues here. RAM and storage literally never break

That's funny, considering I've had an SSD literally break.

 

[hotaru.hino]

Few issues here. RAM and storage literally never break

Uh, yes they can. Just because you haven't seen it personally doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

and you can buy replacement logic boards from apple.

That doesn't make it as reparable as Framework's main board replacement. If you have to replace the main board on an Apple laptop, for instance, you better hope you had a recent back up, because you're not getting the data off the soldered in storage. Or maybe you can if you ask Apple nicely. Either way, this scenario is not a problem on a Framework main board: you pop out the SSD from the old board, put it in the new one, and away you go.

This also doesn't address the fact you can't upgrade either RAM or storage on Apple's laptops. And no, buying a whole new main board doesn't count. That's like saying you can upgrade your desktop's RAM and storage, but you must also buy a new main board and CPU.

The battery is also attached via pull tabs, no alcohol required.

While I'll give them props for making it easier to take out, this only applies to the M2 laptops. And pull tabs still aren't as great as well, simply unscrewing the thing (which you also have to do on an M2 laptop)

The framework display is also poor quality.

RTING's display review for the Framework vs MacBook Air

If the Framework display is of poor quality, so is the MacBook Air's.

If a port breaks on framework you need to buy an entire new mainboard which costs as much as a new laptop.

Last I checked $849 is not as much as $449. Also this is a strawman. If a port breaks on a laptop, that doesn't mean the entire laptop is broken. Either you 1. just don't use the port anymore and live with it or 2. replace the connector.

A Logic board from apple for equivalent performance is about 1/3 the price of the framework and as you say that comes with an SSD and memory.

It's also $100 more than a base model Framework mainboard, at least from iFixit. Which doing some math, I'm pretty sure $549 is not 1/3 of $849. Also if you're saying Framework's main board cost as much as a new laptop in general, as in you can get a $449 laptop, well, so does Apple's main board. And that $449 laptop is going to suck.

And sure, while Apple's mainboard comes with 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage, you can buy that much for around $50.

PCPartPicker Part List

Memory: Kingston ValueRAM 8 GB (1 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 SODIMM CL22 Memory ($23.25 @ Amazon)
Storage: Samsung 970 Evo Plus 250 GB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive ($31.48 @ Best Buy)
Total: $54.73
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2023-07-11 12:25 EDT-0400

You're also not taking into account that the Mac is an ultrabook whereas the framework is a standard size laptop which by default also have revocable RAM and storage as they don't have size constraints.

Framework is 0.62 inches thick. Dell's XPS 13 is 0.6 inches at its thickest. The 2022 MacBook Air is 0.61 inches at its thickest.

I think Framework qualifies as an ultrabook.

Overall if you want a framework just buy a bog standard laptop for $600-800. It will likely be better than the framework in nearly every way and be just as repairable.

Not really, considering for most of these laptops you can't even buy spare parts. And any spare parts you can buy are from third party sellers who likely gutted them. And then there's the upgradability and upcylcing that these laptops don't really have.

Also link to where I can find $600 (actual price, not sale price) laptops that are much better in every way than a base model Framework 13.