Over the last couple of days, the Project Ara Twitter feed has suddenly come to life, but the messages are alarming.
Where Are You Going, Project Ara? (Opinion) : Read more
Where Are You Going, Project Ara? (Opinion) : Read more
Where Are You Going, Project Ara? (Opinion)
- Thread starter scolaner
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This is the kind of project that makes no sense and which worries me about Alphabet=Android R&D, an "upgradeable" phone has sense only if you paid the same plus an reasonable prime than the equivalent non-upgradeable, project ARA hardly would meed this goal, as niche device is only attractive for developers interested to try different kind of hardware.
Hardly ARA will deliver an affordable device.
Other things that worry me, is the stability, the industry trend is to include everything on a single chip this saves power but better delivers reliability, as long you add more connectors (specially those high-speed) you add more points succeptible to interference or data loos etc, you add inestability and unreliability.
To me ARA has no sense, has sense only for R&D teams (niche) that need to test their software against the latest harware, sometimes not available on a single device, beyond that, I don't see how ARA could beat a 220$ Moto G, or deliver an flagship device stable and reliable whithout skyrocket price.
I'll kill ARA today.
Hardly ARA will deliver an affordable device.
Other things that worry me, is the stability, the industry trend is to include everything on a single chip this saves power but better delivers reliability, as long you add more connectors (specially those high-speed) you add more points succeptible to interference or data loos etc, you add inestability and unreliability.
To me ARA has no sense, has sense only for R&D teams (niche) that need to test their software against the latest harware, sometimes not available on a single device, beyond that, I don't see how ARA could beat a 220$ Moto G, or deliver an flagship device stable and reliable whithout skyrocket price.
I'll kill ARA today.
There's some truth to what you say - The idea of Ara only really makes sense if you forsee some reasonably frequent generational leaps in technology in at least some of the sub-modules; a new wireless technology would be the most important, followed by consistent improvements in cameras, but at the moment I don't think either of those are likely.
In the other direction maybe they are more thinking about being hyper affordable with users free to go wireless only or without 4G (or GPS) at a reduced cost. That mid-range market segment I think is much more relevant for reasonably frequent single component upgrades - You could keep up with the latest stuff you want without having to start a new contract or paying through the nose.
Clearly this is always going to be an enthusiast kinda thing but that doesn't mean it's dead on arrival - Remember how the Nexus 5 and 7 were enthusiast devices that became successful because Google priced them very aggressively and I can see them doing something similar here. If it's the right price then there's plenty of consumers who'll give it a go even if they don't really know why they want it (see every watch-device ever made).
If the price is REALLY good then this is exactly the phone you want to get for your kids. Nice big, high def screen but you can skimp on the other specs because kids are kids and they really don't need a $700 flagship to play angry birds and text message and you can upgrade it for them in chunks for birthday and christmas and not by dropping a lot of money in one go.
There's use cases, that's what I'm saying. This all depends on it being priced well, but Google know their market place. If they can't compete on price they aren't going to put it on the market. With the rate of technological advancement now there's little reason to buy an Ara; if you want to upgrade once a year you can get a plan to do that and if you seriously can't wait two months to get the new fastest mobile chip then you have problems. I don't see that being who they are going after and I think we'll see a sub $350 price range with medium specs. That makes sense to me.
hannibal
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- Apr 1, 2004
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Well ARA is cool consept. You can change parts like in your desktop computer.
Want to have new faster GPU, just buy new, pull off the old and snap in the new. And so on! This is the good part.
What is bad, well the size of the phone is bigger than a phone with the same specks with normal structure. The Ara most propably is more expensive than a normal phone with the same specs. But as soon as you oly by new module vs a completely new phone, you start to see some savings.
Your screen and CPU are just fine. Buy only new battery and new GPU. You can save a lot of money!
How many of us has bought new CPU lately to desktop? No improvement has happened in that sectors in years. How many have bought new monitor or new GPU or new SSD in the same time?
Modular phone definitely has its merits!
But if it is too big, or if the price difference in the beginning is too deep, I can see some problems. The bigger problem may be that most people in the real world buy the cheapest possible option. And project Ara may not be the answer to that even in the longer run, because Google has some quality standard reservations, that some other companies does not have... So the big audience that goes for the cheapes possible solution is most probably out of market segment for this phone (as any other phone that cost more than 60$ is...)
Want to have new faster GPU, just buy new, pull off the old and snap in the new. And so on! This is the good part.
What is bad, well the size of the phone is bigger than a phone with the same specks with normal structure. The Ara most propably is more expensive than a normal phone with the same specs. But as soon as you oly by new module vs a completely new phone, you start to see some savings.
Your screen and CPU are just fine. Buy only new battery and new GPU. You can save a lot of money!
How many of us has bought new CPU lately to desktop? No improvement has happened in that sectors in years. How many have bought new monitor or new GPU or new SSD in the same time?
Modular phone definitely has its merits!
But if it is too big, or if the price difference in the beginning is too deep, I can see some problems. The bigger problem may be that most people in the real world buy the cheapest possible option. And project Ara may not be the answer to that even in the longer run, because Google has some quality standard reservations, that some other companies does not have... So the big audience that goes for the cheapes possible solution is most probably out of market segment for this phone (as any other phone that cost more than 60$ is...)
well look at it this way, you could see the phone as an investment.
do i really need a new screen every phone if mine is already around 300dpi?
do i need a new battery if mine is still working?
do i need a new network card if mine still works or there isn't anything better?
if i dont use it to take pictures all the time do i need the camera upgraded if i think its good enough?
the short answer is no... but you see it all the time that new oses or "upgrades" dont perform as well on older phones, so that cpu/gpu i do need upgraded from time to time, and if i want to own my phone outright and not have to get a new one every few months or years, thats all the better for me.
razor512
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- Jun 16, 2007
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They really don't need to go with this design. A more compatible solution would be to simply avoid BGA components, and move to socketed components instead.It will make the phones probably 1 mm thicker, but it will allow for standard designs to become upgradable, e.g.popping out the SOC, and installing a faster one, or replacing the RAM, or adding more flash storage.
As long as the components are pin compatible, upgrades will be relatively simple.
For almost all smartphones, the camera module is already removable.
Simply use sockets for the SOC, RAM, Flash, Wireless radio chipset, and audio components.
Then even without companies taking a specific interest, users can take their devices apart, do a search on the model number of the chip they want to upgrade, and then look through the datasheet (a design like this will mean that the company will not go out of their way to make the device non user serviceable). Many pin compatible chips will list multiple versions on the same datasheet. With a small amount of work, a user can then source the bare component and do the upgrade them self. or if needed, the company can provide a curated list of compatible components.
The issue with Project Ara, is that it leads to a lot of extra complexity and redundancy since they are making multiple modules fit a standardized bus. Think of it like when AGP videocards were dying out, but there was still some demand for higher end PCI express cards for AGP systems. You would notice that all of those higher end AGP cards, has a special chip that got insanely hot, it was essentially adapting and handling the translation needed for a PCI express card to work with AGP
You will end up with that for Project Ara, which will eat into efficiency of the device.
Unless they gain the mjority of the combined smartphone market,they will be unlikely to get components designed specifically for heir interface, instead you will have companies doing stuff like sourcing a MOC 100 BGA transceiver and then adding like 50+ other supporting passive and active components to make it work with the custom connector interface of the phone.
While it will be more convenient for the end user in terms of customizing their device. it will cost more to get the performance they want. The device will be heavier, and there will be less room for the battery.
A to sockets with the standard layouts, means that phones can keep their stacked design (screen on top, PCB in the middle, removable battery on the bottom), but allow the user to simply access the PCB in an easy manner, and then swap components.
As long as the components are pin compatible, upgrades will be relatively simple.
For almost all smartphones, the camera module is already removable.
Simply use sockets for the SOC, RAM, Flash, Wireless radio chipset, and audio components.
Then even without companies taking a specific interest, users can take their devices apart, do a search on the model number of the chip they want to upgrade, and then look through the datasheet (a design like this will mean that the company will not go out of their way to make the device non user serviceable). Many pin compatible chips will list multiple versions on the same datasheet. With a small amount of work, a user can then source the bare component and do the upgrade them self. or if needed, the company can provide a curated list of compatible components.
The issue with Project Ara, is that it leads to a lot of extra complexity and redundancy since they are making multiple modules fit a standardized bus. Think of it like when AGP videocards were dying out, but there was still some demand for higher end PCI express cards for AGP systems. You would notice that all of those higher end AGP cards, has a special chip that got insanely hot, it was essentially adapting and handling the translation needed for a PCI express card to work with AGP
You will end up with that for Project Ara, which will eat into efficiency of the device.
Unless they gain the mjority of the combined smartphone market,they will be unlikely to get components designed specifically for heir interface, instead you will have companies doing stuff like sourcing a MOC 100 BGA transceiver and then adding like 50+ other supporting passive and active components to make it work with the custom connector interface of the phone.
While it will be more convenient for the end user in terms of customizing their device. it will cost more to get the performance they want. The device will be heavier, and there will be less room for the battery.
A to sockets with the standard layouts, means that phones can keep their stacked design (screen on top, PCB in the middle, removable battery on the bottom), but allow the user to simply access the PCB in an easy manner, and then swap components.
sisman2000
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- Aug 17, 2009
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Meanwhile top tier phone maker Samsung is moving in a different direction without removable battery and memory, not seeing the market need for Ara-like device.
The problem with Samsung is that they believes they are selling phones to iPhone owners...
Anyway, while Samsung is excessive and out of focus about battery and SD memory, the fact is common people (not Geeks and Geek-wannabe) is more often to never update nor upgrade theis PCs, some reasoning is that Upgrade dont provides you and New Device, just one patched with some new tech, ussually not in optimal setup, while selling the current device and purchasing an entirely new one actually gives the top.
Android phones are dropping cost fast, today the Motorola Moto G 2015 is as capable as the Galaxy S4 (less than 2yr), and not allways an update is really an upgrade, this apply to Note 4 owners that dont wanna update to the Note 5 since seems an inferior device to many of them.
Upgradability also is an tricky promise, hopefully most devices are now 64 bits, but imagine you purchased an ARA phone a year ago and realize now you cant upgrade it since its an 32 bits core not compatible with new 64 bit peripherals ?...
ARA's upgradability is too overated and only very few actually are interested on this.
Quixit
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- Dec 22, 2014
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The current trend for less expensive handsets and the slowdown of hardware development have sorta blunted the point that launched Ara in the first place. If you can own a single handset for 3-5 years without feeling you need to replace it you don't really need an upgradeable phone. Most phones break or wear out within 5 years anyway, unless Ara is built like a tank I can't see one lasting much longer than a normal phone, although it would make it easier to repair.
I'm still interested in the idea, it just seems like it may not have the mass appeal they expected when it does launch. If a $130 Xiaomi phone is fine for most people, it will be hard to sell an Ara phone that's even close to competitive with that. If you don't think that type of phone really exists read this http://www.gearbest.com/cell-phones/pp_204055.html (I do not endorse this store or product, it's just interesting what you can get for such a crazy low price).
I'm still interested in the idea, it just seems like it may not have the mass appeal they expected when it does launch. If a $130 Xiaomi phone is fine for most people, it will be hard to sell an Ara phone that's even close to competitive with that. If you don't think that type of phone really exists read this http://www.gearbest.com/cell-phones/pp_204055.html (I do not endorse this store or product, it's just interesting what you can get for such a crazy low price).
Articles like these are why I stopped coming to Tom's a year ago after being a regular reader for well over a decade.
NONE of the news from Google is negative! Basically the magnets didn't work out, when you drop the device the modules fly out, big whoop there are a million other ways of securing the modules. The pilot program in Puerto Rico? Well Google gave us reasons for wanting the pilot program there but let's face it we all knew it wasn't going to happen there and now that plans are for testing in the U.S. We are more excited about this fantastic news. As for the delay that should have been expected by EVERYONNNNEEEEE!!!! A ground up modular phone with a catalog of modules at launch all happening in 2015 was a joke every person knew this would not come to be this year and I will put my life on the line and say that a project Ara device will NOT be commercially available in 2016 either. Again none of this is bad news, just a dose of reality
Don't try so hard to create drama where there isn't any, TomsH.
NONE of the news from Google is negative! Basically the magnets didn't work out, when you drop the device the modules fly out, big whoop there are a million other ways of securing the modules. The pilot program in Puerto Rico? Well Google gave us reasons for wanting the pilot program there but let's face it we all knew it wasn't going to happen there and now that plans are for testing in the U.S. We are more excited about this fantastic news. As for the delay that should have been expected by EVERYONNNNEEEEE!!!! A ground up modular phone with a catalog of modules at launch all happening in 2015 was a joke every person knew this would not come to be this year and I will put my life on the line and say that a project Ara device will NOT be commercially available in 2016 either. Again none of this is bad news, just a dose of reality
Don't try so hard to create drama where there isn't any, TomsH.
ericburnby
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- Mar 4, 2010
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Ara is a complete clusterkuf and will never go anywhere.
Manufacturers of components (like SoC's) have been adding in components that were once separate (CPU, GPU, RAM and now cell modems). It's ridiculous to design an architecture around swappable components when the whole industry is going towards combining multiple features into a single chip. Same goes for anything wireless that needs an antenna (cellular, BT, WiFi, GPS) where we now see chips that put multiple devices into a single package.
Even worse, existing components easily connect to each other. Unlike PC's, mobile devices don't have a "chipset" which handles all of the interfacing between the CPU and other devices using buses like PCIe. SoC's have the interfaces and logic integrated and connect directly to common components (like NAND flash or cameras). Now Ara thinks it's a good idea to start using a new bus (UniPro) and force modules that could previously connect to the SoC directly to instead add a NEW bus and communicate over that instead? Ridiculous.
How about antennas? They are large and would span an area greater than the modules with the chips they need to connect to. You'd never have a cellular module with its own antenna. Same for things that require large antennas to work (like NFC). So they're going to have to put the antenna in the actual core baseplate module itself. That means you're forever stuck with the antenna design they use. Further, modern smartphones often share antenna resources between different wireless systems. Antenna design is highly complicated and not something just "tacked on" like a module would be.
Another issue? Heat. Modern smartphones also have to manage heat and the entire device is basically a large heat spreader with certain components (cell modem, SoC, battery charging circuitry) strategically located and managed in order to keep thermal issues in check. When you have individual modules, how do you transfer the heat from them to disperse of it? An electrical connection is easy. Thermal connections aren't.
Bottom line, there are so many issues to overcome to give you a device in the end that really offers few advantages that I'd bet $$$ this never goes anywhere.
Manufacturers of components (like SoC's) have been adding in components that were once separate (CPU, GPU, RAM and now cell modems). It's ridiculous to design an architecture around swappable components when the whole industry is going towards combining multiple features into a single chip. Same goes for anything wireless that needs an antenna (cellular, BT, WiFi, GPS) where we now see chips that put multiple devices into a single package.
Even worse, existing components easily connect to each other. Unlike PC's, mobile devices don't have a "chipset" which handles all of the interfacing between the CPU and other devices using buses like PCIe. SoC's have the interfaces and logic integrated and connect directly to common components (like NAND flash or cameras). Now Ara thinks it's a good idea to start using a new bus (UniPro) and force modules that could previously connect to the SoC directly to instead add a NEW bus and communicate over that instead? Ridiculous.
How about antennas? They are large and would span an area greater than the modules with the chips they need to connect to. You'd never have a cellular module with its own antenna. Same for things that require large antennas to work (like NFC). So they're going to have to put the antenna in the actual core baseplate module itself. That means you're forever stuck with the antenna design they use. Further, modern smartphones often share antenna resources between different wireless systems. Antenna design is highly complicated and not something just "tacked on" like a module would be.
Another issue? Heat. Modern smartphones also have to manage heat and the entire device is basically a large heat spreader with certain components (cell modem, SoC, battery charging circuitry) strategically located and managed in order to keep thermal issues in check. When you have individual modules, how do you transfer the heat from them to disperse of it? An electrical connection is easy. Thermal connections aren't.
Bottom line, there are so many issues to overcome to give you a device in the end that really offers few advantages that I'd bet $$$ this never goes anywhere.
jasonelmore
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- Aug 10, 2008
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they going through a lot of trouble for a product that is maybe gonna sell 80,000 units.. and that's a big maybe.
Articles like these are why I stopped coming to Tom's a year ago after being a regular reader for well over a decade.
NONE of the news from Google is negative! Basically the magnets didn't work out, when you drop the device the modules fly out, big whoop there are a million other ways of securing the modules. The pilot program in Puerto Rico? Well Google gave us reasons for wanting the pilot program there but let's face it we all knew it wasn't going to happen there and now that plans are for testing in the U.S. We are more excited about this fantastic news. As for the delay that should have been expected by EVERYONNNNEEEEE!!!! A ground up modular phone with a catalog of modules at launch all happening in 2015 was a joke every person knew this would not come to be this year and I will put my life on the line and say that a project Ara device will NOT be commercially available in 2016 either. Again none of this is bad news, just a dose of reality
Don't try so hard to create drama where there isn't any, TomsH.
I'm not sure I follow. Just because you expected the news doesn't mean it's not negative.
Also, the drop test thing was a joke, it turns out, which I noted in the article, which makes me think you didn't read the whole thing. (Were the drop test bit true, I would agree with you -- who cares if they separate when you drop the phone. Better than everything shattering.)
The thing to understand here is that this is not about selling *phones*, it's about selling *modules*. This will ostensibly be an enthusiast-class platform. So maybe 80k people will buy an endo, fine, that's probably not a great ROI for Google, but ideally, Ara will bring about an entire sub-market.
Think of it this way: You can buy a smartphone (a complete system), and you can buy a prebuilt PC (a complete system). The idea of a modular smartphone is that you can buy an endo and ALSO pick and choose from any number of modules, in the same way that you can buy a motherboard and build a custom system around it.
Maybe Nvidia/AMD would build a discrete graphics module you could use to soup up gaming performance. Maybe Toshiba makes a storage module that bumps up your capacity to 256 GB. Maybe Canon develops a high-end camera module with a removable lens mount.
And so on. That's the promise of a modular smartphone. Whether we'll get there is anyone's guess. That's why it's important for Ara to succeed -- how many other companies besides Google have the resources to crack that nut?
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