Which Card

[Layne]

I have searched the forums and havent found a difinitive answer so I thought I'd ask.

I am a bit confused with the new cards from ATI and NVIDIA, and everyone here seems to know A LOT more than myself.

My setup:
ASUS P4P800 Deluxe (800 Mhz FSB)
P4 3.0 (OC'd to 3.4)
1GB Corsair 3500C2PT RAM
Zalman CNPS7000 CPU Fan
Enermax NX4000 400W PSU
2x 40GB Raptor RAID 0
Gainward GF4 Ti4200 128 8x AGP

I am looking for a new vid card that will play Doom 3 and HL2 exceptionally, as well as other video card intensive games down the road such as Halo 2.

What I have read says that ATI doesnt handle pixel shaders as well as NVIDIA in their newer cards. I WAS looking into getting an ASUS Radeon 9800 Pro and flashing it to a 9800XT, yet I don't know if thats the best option for the newer games at this point.

If I get the new NVIDIA, I don't think my PSU is powerful enough to handle it and all my power connectors are actually being used as it is, so it looks like I would have to buy a new PSU just for the card.

Any help/suggestions would be appreciated as to what you think the best card would be for this setup for games such as Doom 3 and HL2. Thanks for any assistance.

 

[HardWareBoss]

Asus 9800Pro is a good card. Still waiting on all the benchies to come in on newer cards.

 

[scottchen]

Go for the Sapphire 9800pro, then flash the bios. It's a much better deal, they're very very cheap.

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[Vimp]

I think your slightly confused. ATI's newest cards are just as good if not better then Nvidia's newest cards at running pixel shaders. However Nvidia's cards feature more advanced pixel shaders. A Radeon 9800 Pro, paticularly Asus's, would be an excellent purchase for playing future games such as Half Life 2 and Doom 3. However Asus only sells the 256mb 9800 Pro which, from any brand, is significantly more expensive then the 128mb version with only a very minor performance gain. Your best bang for your buck in my opinion is to either get a 128mb 9800 Pro or get an X800 Pro. An X800 Pro will likly only be a small amount more money then a 256mb 9800 Pro but with twice the performance.

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Canada
Asus A7N8X-X, Athelon XP 2500+ Barton,
Samsung 1gb DDR400, MSI GeforceFX5900 XT.
Aquamark=<b>36077</b> 3DMark03=<b>5322</b>

 

[Layne]

I read that the ASUS was the best for upgrading from Pro to XT. I read the Sapphire's had some quality issues. I guess I'll look again.

Which X800 is the best bang for the buck - aren't there going to be like 3 versions or something - not to mention 3rd party manufactured versions?

Thanks for the replies.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Vimp's right, the ATIs are better with pixel shading power, even the latest ones. The areas nV excels at may not be exposed for some time.

For Doom3 you may see certain benifits of nV's designs as Carmack designed D]|[ with their products in mind. There is no longer an nV-cnetric path, but there may be some things that play to nV's strengths. Just be aware of that. HL2 should see performance benifits favouring ATI from what the stolen Beta tells us.

For the older cards The R9800 is definitely the way to go. For the newer cards it's much more application/use/opinion specific.

The best X800Pro I've seen sofar is from HIS with the new ArticCooling VGA Silencer II already on it;

<A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?104809#104809" target="_new">http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?104809#104809</A>

That's all you'll be able to get until the X800XT and GF6800 series make it to market.

As for the R9800XT, ASUS is good, as is the HIS, and of course the BBA is a standard.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: <A HREF="http://www.hartware.net/showpic.php?type=news&id=36411&nr=3&path=http://gfx.turtled.com/n/36000/36411_3b.jpg" target="_new">Better pics of the HIS</A>

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 05/19/04 10:49 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[drudo]

I'm in the same situation. I fried my 9500 pro recently (*sob*) so now I'm using a GF3 TI200. So I'm looking to get a new card. I think i'm going to wait about a month so see Nvidias full line up and new benchmarks with mature drivers. The only thig holding me back from buying a x 800 pro now is the 12 pixel pipelines. I want to get a 16 pixel pipeline card or nothing. So I have my eye on the 6800 Ultra, or 6800 GL or the x800 XT when it drops to $425. Not sure yet so i'm waiting.

 

[Layne]

<b>RE: the X800 Pro IceQ II</b> - that things a BEAST! Wow! Looks very impressive.

Thanks for the info.

<b>RE: NV specific optimizations in games such as Doom 3</b> - should I wait for more info about the game or is the info already out there? I know Carmack has said that he favors NV based cards for Doom 3, yet I was kinda hoping with the power of the ATI based cards, it wouldnt really matter. If I have to go with a NV based card, it looks like I'll have to buy a new power supply to run it

<b>RE: 12 pixel pipelines vs 16 pixel pipelines</b> - um huh?

This is the stuff I need to hear to help me make a decision. I built this machine for gaming and I am willing to spend the cash to max it out. $ isnt necessarily an issue - tho I would like to get the most bang for the $ with as little tinkering as possible. I mean putting that hefty CPU cooler on the board was enough tinkering to last me the life of this machine. Getting just the right amount of thermal compound took me quite a while and I still dunno if I got it right!

Thanks again for all the input from a total noob.

 

[Vimp]

Aside from unforseen bugs and glitchs you can rest assured both Nvidia's and ATI's newest highend cards will play both Half Life 2 and Doom 3 at extremely satisfying frame rates regardless which card does the job better. So that really needn't be an issue.
As far as pixel pipelines go its not something to worry about. Sure 16 pipes is better then 12 pipes, imagine that, but if the card that the 12 pipes is on is alot better then the card the 16 pipes is on then it remains to be seen which card is actually better despite how many pipes they have. In other words its the end result that matters. Best thing you should do when comparing cards is to only compare specs of cards when the cards in question are all from the same company (Nvidia or ATI in this case). When comparing between the two companies the specs mean almost nothing and the only way to really see how they compare to each other is to look at benchmarks because their archetecture is to different for specs to be viewed with any real meaning. Also note that when I say companies I mean all ATI and Nvidia cards and not individual brands of each such as Sapphire and Asus, etc.

<font color=blue>_______________________________</font color=blue>
Canada
Asus A7N8X-X, Athelon XP 2500+ Barton,
Samsung 1gb DDR400, MSI GeforceFX5900 XT.
Aquamark=<b>36077</b> 3DMark03=<b>5322</b>

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

First, no problem about the HIS info, they've just impressed as of late.

RE: NV specific optimizations in games such as Doom 3 - should I wait for more info about the game or is the info already out there

Depends on how pressed you are to get new gear, and how important the game is. Really even the R9800series and FX5900 series will run the game fine, it's just a question of turning up the features (just look at FarCry, they play, but play better on the newer cards). The only way to be sure what (card) does what (features/performance) with what (game) is to wait until they are fully reviewed. If you go nV you will only need a new PSU for the GF6800Ultra. What do you have now? A quality 400W should be ok. You can get away with less, but really you need to keep other things under control (future CPUs and such may force you to that eventual upgrade). The GF6800non-ultra should be in the same power category as the X800XT/PRO.

RE: 12 pixel pipelines vs 16 pixel pipelines - um huh?

<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/nv40_6.html" target="_new">Brief blurb explanation of pixel-pipes in current line at Xbit</A> , <A HREF="http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/r420_x800/index.php?p=7" target="_new">Plus B3D's look at the X800s pipes</A>, <b>basically it's the number of parallel pixels/fragments that can be processed per clock cycle per texture function (colour and Z)</b>. nV has a way of just doing z which makes it 32x0, but it still has only 16 physical pipelines. If a pixel requires more than just one texture function then it must go through again, and you'd have an output of 8 pixel per cycle.
The old nV 3X design could send 2 in at once (if programmed well enough) and was a 4x2 design instead of just a 4x1 design. This meant when dual textures was needed it could process 4 pixels per clock cycle just like the ATI's 8x1 design. Very few games call for that (Quake 3 is one) and thus you didn't see the full potential of that design in most cases. Now I may be confused somewhere, as there are definitely more knowledgeable people than me out there (and they may offer a more detailed or different view of it), but that's the gist of it AFAIK. Not easy to explain, but that first line kinda covers it (went back and bolded it [which may be my undoing! ]).

The basic 3designs on the table right now are 16pipes (X800XT/GF6800Ultra>), 12pipes(X800Pro/GF6800non-ultra), 8pipes(X800SE/GF6800SE&XT?).

And simply put, all things being equal (like memory, frequencies, and architecture), 16pipes>12pipes>8pipes.

Right now you can only get the X800Pro which is a 12 pipeline chip from ATI. The X800XT should be out next month or July at the latest, and the GF6800s should arrive sometime next month as well(although they may surprise with something sooner). So for right now, you can only get a 12 pipe card.

If you can wait, then it's worth getting the 16 pipeline X800XT and GF6800Ultra/GT. Both of which will give you significant performance boosts with little tinkering. Whether you will use those performance deltas right now is another question, likely only if you crank up the settings, or put those future titles to use.

So money not a major issue, then go full out if you want the results. If you want GOOD results, and best bang for your buck, I would recommend the 12 pipeline X800Pro or GF6800, they should be rather inexpensive. The 8 pipeline cards aren't likely to be great cards, but may offer some nice features as long as they don't have crippled 128bit memory (which many will have), but I'd still stay away from them, as they are likely not a great deal when compared to the R9800 series.

Money of little concern, and you want something to last a long time, then wait for the X800XT or GF6800Ultra/GT.If you want bang for your buck, something in your rig NOW, and can upgrade again this time next year, get the X800Pro, nothing should be unplayable on it for at least a year or more.

Take a look at the performance gaps etween the X800Pro and XT to get an Idea of the impact of the those pipelines. There are alot of reviews out there including LARS' one on the front of THG.

Anywhoo, hope that helps.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK

 

[Layne]

Well I want the new card soon after/before Doom 3 is released Been looking forward to that one.

I have a Enermax NX4000 400W PSU with all power cables in use.

I appreciate the info on the pixel pipes, yet its waaay over my head - other than "more pipes = better" Might try and work thru the info more later for "fun".

I will prolly wait for the X800XT for its less power consumption (vs the GF6800U) and great features. Any ideas about what companies other than BBA will be making great versions of this card?

Regarding $ not an issue. When I built this machine, I set aside cash for a better card. I promised myself I would get the latest and greatest when Doom 3 is released and gol darnit I'm stickin to that promise!

So its lookin like the X800XT. Just need to find the best X800XT! I'll keep checking the main site for info.

Thanks again for everyone's input. Very edumacational!

 

[Vimp]

The companies I would recommend buying an X800 XT from are ATI, Asus, and MSI. All three companies are well known for having the highest quality parts and all three have a 3 year warrenty. Except for ATI the other 2 include some of the best bundles with their video cards. Quality wise though I think Asus is top dog, but at a price.

<font color=blue>_______________________________</font color=blue>
Canada
Asus A7N8X-X, Athelon XP 2500+ Barton,
Samsung 1gb DDR400, MSI GeforceFX5900 XT.
Aquamark=<b>36077</b> 3DMark03=<b>5322</b>

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

First, you can erase a double post by going into the edit button and clicking on 'delete this post' (just need to delete one). Double posts happen to everyone from time to time.

<b>EDIT</b>: See you fixed it by the time this posted.

As for which card to get, if you're waiting for D3/HL2, then they will be out around the same time as these cards (likely just weeks afterwards), so no rush, take your time and chose wisely AFTER the previews/reviews. These are new game engines and they may offer performance figures never seen by other games, despite early/earlier releases of these titles.
Always best to buy a card once the games are actually on the shelf or at least reviewed extensively by more than one site.

Power consumption may come into play, but if an GF6800non-ultra performs better than the X800XT in the tasks/games you want, that will have similar power considerations (both are single molex cards, with similar consumption figures).

Which X800XT to get? Not sure, really not enough info yet. As for best HSF (mainly of interest for overclocking), I haven't seen the HIS solution, but I assume it would be similar to the X800Pro in that there are two versions, IceQ and Regular.

<A HREF="http://usa.asus.com/products/vga/ax800xt/overview.htm" target="_new">The ASUS cards</A> look very similar to their PRO counterparts, and are quality makers.

Sapphire has a version called <A HREF="http://www.hartware.net/showpic.php?type=news&id=36443&nr=1&path=http://gfx.turtled.com/n/36000/36443_1b.jpg" target="_new">TOXIC</A>, which reminds me of the HIS solution. And would likely be a quality part of medium to medium high standards. <A HREF="http://www.hartware.net/showpic.php?type=news&id=36295&nr=1&path=http://gfx.turtled.com/n/36000/36295_1b.jpg" target="_new">Here's </A> their PRO.

<A HREF="http://www.hartware.net/showpic.php?type=news&id=36295&nr=2&path=http://gfx.turtled.com/n/36000/36295_2b.jpg" target="_new">Not sure which of the two ABITs this is</A>. Abit is a new entry for ATI.

<A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?104946#104946" target="_new">MSI is another recent ATI partner</A>

<A HREF="http://www.hartware.net/showpic.php?type=news&id=36295&nr=3&path=http://gfx.turtled.com/n/36000/36295_3b.jpg" target="_new">GigaPuke</A> avoid

<A HREF="http://www.hartware.net/showpic.php?type=news&id=36295&nr=4&path=http://gfx.turtled.com/n/36000/36295_4b.jpg" target="_new">PowerCrap</A> avoid

<A HREF="http://www.hartware.de/press_1973.html" target="_new">Club3D</A> (is made by powercolor/crapper) and I would avoid them too.


Quality wise I put Asus, HIS, ATI (BuiltByAti) at the top of my list. And Sapphire would be right behind ATI, with quality products but you have to research them to be sure you're getting their 'good' models.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 05/20/04 01:53 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Layne]

OK so I have been doing some more reading (uh oh) and found, as stated previously, that the X800 series dont support Shader Model 3... I understand this isnt a big deal for the current, or soon to be current, crop of games - yet do you believe Shader Model 3 will be needed in the relatively near future for games? I understand technology changes quickly and there's nothing for certain, yet I want SOME longevity from the $500 card I'm gonna buy.

So bottom line, if you were in my shoes, would you worry about Shader Model 3 support in future games or is this just an unknown I need to deal with?

Thanks for any assistance.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Layne on 05/20/04 09:55 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[HardWareBoss]

What happened to the vid card with that ICEQ on board?

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I'd say it won't make much difference until about mid 2005.

Even then the impact may be minimal. If all other performance issues are the same though, it doesn't hurt to go with the extra features of the GF6800. The thing is whether these are simply bullet-point/checkbox features, or whether they will truely show gain before the next generation comes along with even more power and functionality.

If it were me, I would go with the X800XT, but that's if you're talking about AGP which has a mediocre shelf-life, once the PCI-EX cards get here I'm not planning to upgrade until MAJOR feature changes, so I might go with the NV45 if someone could convince me of the advanatge being more than just 60million transistors, and doesn't sacrifice PCI-EX performance. Right now it's all a big question mark. As many people have said, it would've been more dramatic if nV had come up with some killer app comparison or something to promote the technology better, but with the mediocre proof of concept out there on MS' site and such, it's not really all that compelling.

But if you are worried about missing out on features, then go with the NV40, but just don't be surprised it it performas like the NV30 does with PS2.0 applications.

Still a tough call until something (like a 2dmark 2004) comes along to expose tangible benifits/differences (other than static images or canned video).

Of course that's just my two frames' worth.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

What happened to the vid card with that ICEQ on board?

Yrah, didn't want to repeat myself. I did mention HIS at the end again, but didn't think we needed to repost the link again in the same thread.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK