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RazberyBandit

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Do you mean the scene within History of the World by Mel Brooks? "The Inquisition, here we go! The Inquisition, what a show!" :D
 

elel

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I can see how it would be easy to dismiss religious works (most of which are old) on the grounds of their being 'hearsay'. But may I ask you, do you believe that Napolion existed? King Alfred? Julius Caesar? If so, why them and not, for example, Moses or Jesus?
 

RazberyBandit

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That was pretty funny, reynod. I never saw it before. Guess we don't get quite enough Monty Python over here in the States...

This is the scene from History of the World Part 1 that I was thinkin' of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oppHeMlaLVM

@ Elel. I don't deny the existence of such religious figures. Quite simply, I question the alleged facts/feats surrounding what's written or claimed regarding their existence. It's easily argued (and proven) that the Gospels weren't written by the Disciples themselves. In fact, it was considered extremely out of the ordinary for people to write down their own accounts in those times. Instead, it was commonplace to have someone else transcribe stories which others told. Think of it as akin to dictation. The problem is, the Gospels weren't written during the lives of the Disciples soon after Jesus's death, but 100-200 years later. That's a lot of time for things to be forgotten, exaggerated, etc. And unfortunately, because of the incredible power struggles that accompanied the times that followed, it's a reasonable argument that the writings were forged with agenda.

Now, I'm not claiming such things happened. However, it's hard to say it's impossible changes weren't made, either, whether accidentally or purposely. Therein lies the main issue - faith vs facts. Without having witnessed such events firsthand, one cannot know with absolute certainty. "History is written by the victors."

Whichever and whatever beliefs you choose, so be it. Live your life as you wish, as I'll live mine. One would hope mankind would have grown wise enough not to tread upon the lives of others, yet such still remains largely a hope. Civility and kindness lie within us all, yet some of us choose to live otherwise. It's quite unfortunate that for there to be a truly epic change in that regard, much of the world would require an undeniably divine appearance and intervention.
 
True Christianity is accepting that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He lived on this earth among us as a man, that His birth was outside the sin stained bloodline of humanity because the mother of Jesus was a virgin and the conception done through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

That Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy, He also was a confirmation of Biblical History making statements in His Ministry time on this earth to validate some of the past recorded Biblical history, He was falsely accused, sentenced to death by crucifixion, was tortured and crucified, and died on the cross, His Blood Sacrifice paid the price for all our sins.

He was resurrected from the dead by the Power of the Holy Spirit and appeared in the flesh to His disciples, who then became eye witnesses to those facts, after that, He ascended into heaven to take His place at the right hand of God the Father, until the day of His Second Coming, when He will come back to earth and take all believers with Him back to heaven.

The Trinity is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, three in one but at the same time separate, with separate purposes, once the sin of the world was laid upon Jesus, then Jesus Christ became an unclean thing that God would not look upon, and blackened the sky so he could not see His precious Son.

It then became the Holy Spirits responsibility to remove that sin from Jesus, so that Jesus could go back into Gods presence, Jesus was baptized in the Lake of Fire, and all the sin was removed from Him, as He was without sin and clean, He voluntarily took that sin upon Himself to fulfill Gods Will, so that all mankind would have the ability to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven by simply believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, asking for forgiveness of your sins and asking Jesus to enter into your heart, and if you really mean it and believe, Jesus will come into your heart, and you will have an understanding to be able to comprehend the hidden things of God.

I pray for the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon every eye and every heart that is reading this, you are now responsible for everything you've read here, be careful how you respond, if you've read this far. God Bless you all! Ryan
 

RazberyBandit

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Very well said, Ryan. Those are the very core beliefs of Christianity. Even someone with as, oh... curious yet skeptical an eye as I have in regards to religion is quite aware of these beliefs. I consider myself fairly well-educated, and as such, I'm aware of the beliefs of other religions. (Moreso the "big 3" religions, with only a little Hindu and Buddhist knowledge.)

I find it curious, and perhaps troubling, how differently Judaism and Islam view the life of Jesus, and how Judaism and Christianity view Muhammad. (So-and-so was only a Prophet, so-and-so wasn't a Prophet at all, so-and-so wasn't divine, so-and-so was a false Prophet, etc...) The fact that anyone's life, or death for that matter, could give rise to three completely different religions that share an ancient, common base and belief system stirs more questions within me than answers. The differing views of Jesus and Muhammad seem to form the very basis of religious conflict that has existed for 1500-2000 years. The fact that people who have differing views can't simply coexist peacefully baffles me. That sort of pettiness seems, well, ridiculous, especially when they all believe that someday the Messiah will come. Why would anyone care that he didn't come for those who don't share your faith? At least you're saved, right?

I've tried again and again to remain open-minded, learning as much as I can about the major three. Unfortunately, as I stated previously, no one's ever had answers I've sought for some of the many questions I've had. Like my brief, yet informative experience with Sunday School. When I was 5, my parents felt it was OK to expose me to religion, we went to church a few times, and I attended Sunday School. On the 3rd day of Sunday School, I was thrown out for asking, "If God forgives all sins, how can anyone who feels sorry about something ever go to Hell?" I suppose it's safe to say that until the day God reveals himself to me, if in fact there is one, I may never get answers to relatively simple questions, like that.

And I hope no one thinks I'm just taking an opposing side for opposition's sake. To the contrary, I'm just a guy who doesn't know for certain if or if not God exists, while trying to remain open to his existence. However, I must admit I'm open to the ideas of Exotheology and ancient astronaut theories as well. Quite simply, I don't know what's true, if any of it is. And I realize there's a chance I will never know, just as well as I realize none of it may be true - that we humans who make errors may have gotten everything completely wrong so long ago, we're too far off-track to recover.
 

JAYDEEJOHN

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Whats interesting here is, in the end, the Jews will comes to know Christ before the end, according to the new testament.
Theres a desire in Gods word for the Israeli's, as they were His first chosen.
So tho it varies from Judaism, Christianity knows where its roots come from, which are older than Islam, while of course, the roots, Judaism itself is even older still.
Not sure about Islam, and how the Koran speaks on such things, as I know just a lil about Islam
 

henryvalz

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I can see how it would be easy to dismiss religious works (most of which are old) on the grounds of their being 'hearsay'. But may I ask you, do you believe that Napolion existed? King Alfred? Julius Caesar? If so, why them and not, for example, Moses or Jesus?
There is direct evidence of the existence of the historical figures you discuss, that is confirmed by science and historians to have originated in the time of their lives.

HOWEVER, THERE IS NOT ONE VERIFIABLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE OF MOSES OR JESUS. Not one. Funny that an entire literate nation was afflicted by a series of plagues, and there wasn't a single piece of evidence found in their literature or history?

Additionally, there isn't a confirmable single description of Jesus written during his lifetime. The four books written about Jesus were written hundreds of years after his death, and contain "facts" that are found in older religions showing that most of what Christianity is is just stolen bits from other religions.

Believe what you want, but don't try to compare established fact with mythology.
 




Jesus Himself said there was only one unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, or as he is sometimes called the Holy Ghost, and that shows just how important the Holy Spirit is, the Holy Spirit and Jesus can go in the presence of sin, but God the Father will not go in the presence of sin, and neither can sin enter into His presence.

That's why the Holy Spirits role in removing the sin placed on Jesus on the cross, was so important and so honored by God the Father, that committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable, so all other sins are forgivable.

If God reveals Himself to you it will be your choice and your choice alone, He does not make someone come to Him, that is completely up to them.

The prayer of conviction I prayed earlier, is to give a person the desire to seek out the truth, because once you find it, it's life changing, and as the Bible says, it will set you free.

Until a person is released from the bondage of this world, they don't realize they've been in it.

When I was little my grandpa had a mule he plowed the fields with, even when he took his lunch, he left the mule hitched to the plow in the field with a bucket of water, the mule would stand right there, grandpa would go eat, come back pick up the reins, Hyah mule!, and they were back to plowing.

The mule had blinders on his eyes so all he could see was the rut he was walking in, but when the plowing for the day was done, my grandpa would point for where he wanted me to stand, because he wanted to be sure I was not between the mule and the stall, where the mule knew his daily food was waiting.

Grandpa unhitched the mule from the plow and snatched the blinders off, and the mule took off for the stall, once those blinders were removed no one had to tell him where to go.

And one day, Lord Willing, God will take those blinders off of you, if you ask Him to, and when He does you will know the truth, and nothing will stop you from heading home and sitting at the table prepared for you.
 

elel

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Very well said. I hope that most of my posts in this discussion come across as well as that one did.

I guess I'll have to start off by saying that I'm sorry for what happened to you in sunday school. I will never appologize for Christ, but I find that I have to appologize for Christians all the time. I was thinking of putting 'Christians' in quotes, but that would give the impression that 'true' Christians are perfect. They're not.

As to the fact that different religions, or even sects within a religion never seem to co-exist peacefully I think that you have a valid point. I believe that there is never an excuse to spread Christianity by violence or force. I can't speak for Islam or Judaism since I don't know enough, though I have heard that Islam approves of the use of force for conversion. I, as a Christian, am commanded to tell other people about the truth, I will go into hostile areas to do this, and I will defend my land from aggression, but I will never approve of an attack on another group 'because they believe differently'.

The inquisition (which was mentioned earlier in this thread) was a horrible perversion where greed and fanaticism and political forces came together to make an organization which reported to nobody, could confiscate property so long as it could force a conviction, and in general made life miserable for everybody but the inquisitors. And it was directly contrary to the Bible. I can demonstrate this if anyone is interested, but I'm out of time for now ;)
 

elel

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I'm sorry that I don't have more time to answer this, but for now I'll link you to this article. I know that it doesn't directly address your objection, but if the Bible is accurate, what it talks about will be true.
 

elel

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They're probably scared to see so many mods in one thread :p
 

B_I_O_M

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It's a "miracle" if there ever was one. LOL.

But honestly, I'm very happy that this has worked out. Take that, cynics! And I would have liked to responded to some of the posts, but I don't have the much time to really do that. It's a con of forum discussions, but at least it's a relatively minor one.
 

RazberyBandit

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There's no reason to be afraid of the mods here at Tom's at all. Well, so long as you can be civil. I have had minor problems before, inappropriately wording something and getting a short-term ban for it. After civil discussion with aford10, we agreed that it was simply the wording that was out of order, and he lifted the ban allowed me to amend it on my own. And dare I even mention the Palit discussion... Ryan? Randomizer? LOL *walks on eggshells*

My point is, the mods here are generally the absolute cream of the crop when it comes to civil discussion.

Also, thanks for the kind words, elel. I look back on my Sunday School experience now and just shrug it off. Maybe that lady was having some tough times and couldn't handle such a question from a snot-nosed little kid... I dunno. But I certainly don't blame all of Christianity for what happened.

@ Ryan. I apologize if I'm misinterpreting, but if you're trying to guide me towards salvation, it's not going to happen here. I feel I'm well beyond the point where words alone will sway me, no matter how genuine. It's more like I'd need something along the lines of my own Burning Bush.

Continuing, why the use of the word "blinders?" I suppose it's in reference to the belief that God's creation is all around me, yet I don't see God in my surroundings. Well, I don't see any aliens either... Do I have blinders for aliens as well? OK, that's a bit of a harsh comparison, but the point remains. Creationism is a theory/theology I obviously don't follow. It would be convenient to simply chalk everything up to something divine, but scientific facts and theories regarding creation hold merit and contradict Creationism repeatedly. I might add, it's far easier for me to accept scientific fact than it is to accept divinity. Though, it's easily argued by some of the more liberal Creationists that even evolution is of God's design.

Anyway... I'm not upset with the choice of the word blinders. I do find it a tiny bit harsh or out of place, though. But like I said, if God's going to reveal himself to me, he needs to make it more obvious than someone again telling me he's everywhere and all I have to do is look.

@ henryvals. I too mentioned the fact that the writing of the Gospels took place long after the death of Jesus. And despite the lack of physical and recorded evidence of his existence, the mere mention of his existence within Judaism, the established religion of the region at that time, is proof enough for most. And is Moses not mentioned within anything Egyptian? What about Greek? What of Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac? Are they all just myth, like Hercules, or even Paul Bunyan?

While agree that some of the facts/beliefs within Christianity were "bent" in order to give it more appeal to pagans who may have otherwise completely rejected it, not everything within it appears as such. And while some of it's "tales" are remarkably similar to other accepted beliefs and/or mythologies of the era, that could simply be coincidence.

I dunno... Maybe you watched Bill Maher's Religulous one too many times. I've watched it myself several times, but I don't accept what's said within it as fact.
 


I'm writing what the Holy Spirit is giving me in my heart to write, it's been years since I've participated in a thread like this, what I am writing may not even be meant directly for you, but for someone else reading it, so don't let individual words like blinders seem to mean intent, over just simply sharing a childhood memory.

Only God knows why He has given me what He has to say in this thread so far, it's not being given to me for nothing, someone reading it will benefit from it, everyone has a time in their lives, it may not be your time at all, but it may very well be someone else's time.
 

The thing is, is that even possible? We all know that the beliefs of a person influence their decisions. What's stopping the people who run the gov's of the world (ie politicians) from being at least some what influenced by religion? For example, take the idea of abortion. We all know that religious views will most certainly come in to play on a topic such as this.
 
Btw, any one have a good translation of the Qur'an & Torah? The one's I've found seem to get "lost" in translation to English.

Btw, congratz every one on keeping this civil. I usually do not participate in a discussion as this as it usually get out of hand. Even with my close friends, I do not talk religion and never talk religion with strangers/friends. The closest that I've come to a discussion on a topic on religion was in my freshman year in high school with some Christian girl who's name I can't recall (she moved to Arizona or Idaho, IIRC) but I remember the face. And like here, we kept it very civil.
 

RazberyBandit

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Complete separation of church and state is not possible. Ideals that get their basis within religion can't help but influence the people who believe in them, whether they be elected or appointed members of government. Likewise, such beliefs will just as certainly influence the masses who vote. But, I don't believe complete separation was the intended goal of our "founding fathers." (Perhaps it was, though. Some of them looked down upon religion quite fiercely.)

I think the general goal was to prevent the government from becoming a institution wherein religious beliefs were readily and handily spread, making the government another "hand" of the church. It's one reason the US has never (and hopefully will never) officially claimed itself a Christian nation, despite the majority of it's populace sharing Christian faith. Once something like that occurs, say goodbye to any and all assemblance of separation of the two.
 

randomizer

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Even if separation of Church and State were possible, personal beliefs will affect all political decisions (and so will "popular opinion" even more). I know at least one atheist who does not agree with abortion. That obviously has nothing to do with religious ties.
 
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