[SOLVED] Whoops--got the 95W CPU instead of the 65W

gn842a

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Well I've been building a new computer and am currently stalled by the gods of UPS. I selected the Ryzen 5 2600Z. Now I had intended to buy the Ryzen 5 2600. But when I saw the Z could be pushed a bit more, I decided to get that.

The thing is I'm not into overclocking. I was just of the mind that a chip designed for overclocking might be under less load and hence more durable than the regular chip. But when I actually pushed the button on Newegg I failed to notice that that the 2600 is 95W. I probably would not have gotten it had that made its way into my consciousness. My general thinking is that hotter implies more component wear and lowered longevity.

Then it occurred to me that since I am not a gamer that I might not actually be using the chip at 95W most of the time. So my question is: Does 95W mean an invariable draw of 95W, like the old tungsten light bulbs that had one and only one output measured in watts, or is the power draw more conditional on demand, like a dimmable switch in the living room, so that your 100 watt bulbs may actually be putting out only 50 or 60? It would be of some comfort to know that the I'm not destined to draw 95W for the thousands of hours I hope this build will last.

Greg N
 

Darkbreeze

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Open holes mean more noise. That goes for every case, period. That is why cases like the Fractal Design Define series have moduvent covers for unused fan locations in the top of the unit and noise blocking padding on the inside of the side panels on all panels that aren't windowed. Windowed models are not AS quiet because they have padded panel only on the backside.

I assure you, I have about twenty five different fans on my cooling shelf in my test area. None of them, regardless of brand, as as quiet as the Noctua models at an equivalent RPM or CFM. Only when a fan is running at a slower rate of speed, which generally means a lower RPM and lower CFM, can brands like BeQuiet beat out Noctua in terms of sound performance. I have yet to see any fan do it.
 
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Darkbreeze

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X, not Z.

95w is the maximum base clock thermal design power. It would only pull that under a full load at all core base clock speeds.

At boosted all core speeds, it may pull more than that, as might the 2600 anyhow. The only thing that really matters here is what the motherboard model is?

So long as you set the Windows power plan to balanced, which needs to be done ANYWAY on Ryzen according to AMD recommendations, and enable the power saving cool n quiet features in the BIOS, then it will only use that full wattage when it's under a full load. Normally it will vary depending on what you are doing. You are overthinking the situation or creating a problem where none exists UNLESS you purchase a very low end motherboard that is not fit to be used with that CPU.
 
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gn842a

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Well I forgot to mention yes it is Asus Prime X470 pro with Ryzen 5 2600X and an AMD RX 570 which is still on its way (using an old gpu meanwhile). 16 gigs DDR4 and an M.2 NVMe which is harboring the OS (I wonder if that is wise, an 860 Evo style SSD would be a few inches from the mobo and maybe less vulnerable to heat? I guess I'll find out.

ANYHOW, since we're on the topic of HEAT and POWER consumption, I was wondering whether there is a view as to how best to handle the cooling. In my old build I used Speedfan but it sounds as I should do it all through the UEFI? Is speed fan obsolete?

Oops yeah X, not Z! Thank you Darkbreeze. I can see I have some homework to do on getting these settings right. I am using the new system for this post but it has embarked on a multi-day Carbonite file download so I have to leave everything alone for a while.

thanks,
Greg N
 

rigg42

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Well I forgot to mention yes it is Asus Prime X470 pro with Ryzen 5 2600X and an AMD RX 570 which is still on its way (using an old gpu meanwhile). 16 gigs DDR4 and an M.2 NVMe which is harboring the OS (I wonder if that is wise, an 860 Evo style SSD would be a few inches from the mobo and maybe less vulnerable to heat? I guess I'll find out.

ANYHOW, since we're on the topic of HEAT and POWER consumption, I was wondering whether there is a view as to how best to handle the cooling. In my old build I used Speedfan but it sounds as I should do it all through the UEFI? Is speed fan obsolete?

Oops yeah X, not Z! Thank you Darkbreeze. I can see I have some homework to do on getting these settings right. I am using the new system for this post but it has embarked on a multi-day Carbonite file download so I have to leave everything alone for a while.

thanks,
Greg N
Asus AI Suite will do fan control in windows. The bios also works but you get more control with AI suite. I would invest in a better cooler for the 2600x. The stock cooler is pushed to its limits on stock boost settings and is inadequate IMO.
 

Darkbreeze

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Unless I'm mistaken, AI Suite settings ONLY take effect once Windows drivers and applications load into memory, correct?

I like doing things in the BIOS, for a number of reasons. The MOST compelling reason, for me, is that I dislike ALL of the bundled softwares that come with or are available FOR motherboards and I've been of that opinion for quite a long time. They are usually unnecessarily bloated and are usually at least somewhat buggy as well. The fewer applications I have to run, and the more I can streamline system behavior at the hardware level, the happier I am and the less my system has to deal with being congested up with a bunch of extra processes that really are not necessary.

Another reason is, unless things have changed recently, those bundled fan and monitoring applications don't take effect until Windows has loaded drivers and application libraries into memory, which means that you still pretty much need to configure fan behavior in the BIOS anyhow for pre-Windows environments like being IN the BIOS, or running Memtest, or anything that isn't specifically Windows. Granted, for a lot of people, that isn't going to be all that often, but the fact remains that there are times when you're not in Windows and if you have to configure the fans for non-Windows behavior anyhow, I don't see much point in having to screw with it while I'm IN Windows as well. It's not like you should be needing to constantly fiddle with fan configurations. Set them. Forget them. Done. Never think about them again unless there is a cooling or noise related issue.

I would recommend you do ALL of the following.


Update BIOS.

Update all drivers from the motherboard product page.

Install the latest AMD chipset drivers from the AMD website. This is the only driver I do NOT recommend getting from the motherboard product page, EXCEPT on laptops or in cases where it is a specialty configuration and appropriate chipset drivers are not available from the Intel or AMD websites.

And if you haven't already, and are using an existing Windows installation from a previous system for this new build, it would be VERY advisable to do a CLEAN install of Windows before doing anything I listed above, first.
 
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rigg42

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Unless I'm mistaken, AI Suite settings ONLY take effect once Windows drivers and applications load into memory, correct?

I like doing things in the BIOS, for a number of reasons. The MOST compelling reason, for me, is that I dislike ALL of the bundled softwares that come with or are available FOR motherboards and I've been of that opinion for quite a long time. They are usually unnecessarily bloated and are usually at least somewhat buggy as well. The fewer applications I have to run, and the more I can streamline system behavior at the hardware level, the happier I am and the less my system has to deal with being congested up with a bunch of extra processes that really are not necessary.

Another reason is, unless things have changed recently, those bundled fan and monitoring applications don't take effect until Windows has loaded drivers and application libraries into memory, which means that you still pretty much need to configure fan behavior in the BIOS anyhow for pre-Windows environments like being IN the BIOS, or running Memtest, or anything that isn't specifically Windows. Granted, for a lot of people, that isn't going to be all that often, but the fact remains that there are times when you're not in Windows and if you have to configure the fans for non-Windows behavior anyhow, I don't see much point in having to screw with it while I'm IN Windows as well. It's not like you should be needing to constantly fiddle with fan configurations. Set them. Forget them. Done. Never think about them again unless there is a cooling or noise related issue.

I would recommend you do ALL of the following.


Update BIOS.

Update all drivers from the motherboard product page.

Install the latest AMD chipset drivers from the AMD website. This is the only driver I do NOT recommend getting from the motherboard product page, EXCEPT on laptops or in cases where it is a specialty configuration and appropriate chipset drivers are not available from the Intel or AMD websites.

And if you haven't already, and are using an existing Windows installation from a previous system for this new build, it would be VERY advisable to do a CLEAN install of Windows before doing anything I listed above, first.
Yes you are correct that the AI Suite settings ONLY take effect once Windows drivers and applications load into memory. AI suite gives you some extra options that you don't have in Bios like adjusting the max temp in the fan curve, running fixed fan speeds, and changing the temp sensor source. The fan tuner in Asus' UEFI doesn't have these options and will run your fans at 100% when the CPU hits 75c. This is really annoying if you have high speed fans that you don't want to ramp up that high when the CPU hits 75c. The only reason to use AI suite is the fact that the Asus fan tuner kind of sucks in the UEFI. Otherwise I would agree that doing the fan tuning in bios is preferred with most motherboards.

EDIT: Found Q-Fan Configuration sub menu at the bottom of the monitoring tab in the Asus UEFI that provides more options.
 
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AIsuite has been problematic for me and many others. All is adjustable in BIOS itself, for fans there is automatic tuning depending on other settings and works fine.
As for 95 or 65W TDP processors, no worries, 2700x is nominally 105W but under full OC and full load frequently hits 140w+ and VRM is still cool suggesting that even higher loads are possible.
 

Darkbreeze

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The fan tuner in Asus' UEFI doesn't have these options
It has been years since I've seen a board that cost more than 100 dollars NOT have the ability to individually adjust high, medium and low temperature points and PWM ratio, especially on an ASUS board. Even my 4 year old Hero VIII has the ability to set those variables in the BIOS as well as changing between PWM and DC modes on all fan headers AND changing the temperature sensor source from five or six different options including CPU, T-sensor, motherboard, VRM, PCH and external sensors.

I'd be VERY, VERY surprised if that Prime X470-Pro that was four years newer and a mid tiered board in the highest chipset family was not able to do that as well.
 
Asus Prime x470 pro does have control for all but AIO_PUMP fan ports. It is called Q-Fan control and a speed curve could be set manually or let it test and set automatically. Auto setup is mostly right, best to let it work while conditions are hottest. IT works for fans in voltage as well as PWM mode.
 

rigg42

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It has been years since I've seen a board that cost more than 100 dollars NOT have the ability to individually adjust high, medium and low temperature points and PWM ratio, especially on an ASUS board. Even my 4 year old Hero VIII has the ability to set those variables in the BIOS as well as changing between PWM and DC modes on all fan headers AND changing the temperature sensor source from five or six different options including CPU, T-sensor, motherboard, VRM, PCH and external sensors.

I'd be VERY, VERY surprised if that Prime X470-Pro that was four years newer and a mid tiered board in the highest chipset family was not able to do that as well.
I just discovered the Q-Fan Configuration sub menu buried at the bottom of the Monitor Tab in the UEFI. It seems really counter intuitive that they wouldn't have all of these options in the Q-Fan Control window but they are indeed there. I did find a minor limitation as compared to AI Suite at least with my ROG strix b450i. Source options are CPU, Motherboard, PCH, T_Sensor, and Multiple Sources. No PCI-E which is an option in AI suite. There also is still no way to to set upper temp above 75c but you can set the max duty cycle to whatever % you want so it's not a big deal.
 
I just discovered the Q-Fan Configuration sub menu buried at the bottom of the Monitor Tab in the UEFI. It seems really counter intuitive that they wouldn't have all of these options in the Q-Fan Control window but they are indeed there. I did find a minor limitation as compared to AI Suite at least with my ROG strix b450i. Source options are CPU, Motherboard, PCH, T_Sensor, and Multiple Sources. No PCI-E which is an option in AI suite. There also is still no way to to set upper temp above 75c but you can set the max duty cycle to whatever % you want so it's not a big deal.
You shouldn't let it lower CPU fan speed at more that 75c at all. some PBO limitations occur way before, at 62 - 65c where you would want highest cooling to get best performance.
 

rigg42

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You shouldn't let it lower CPU fan speed at more that 75c at all. some PBO limitations occur way before, at 62 - 65c where you would want highest cooling to get best performance.
In most instances I would agree. However if you have high RPM fans you probably don't want them to rev up full speed because they get loud as hell. Non x chips are better manually overclocked so PBO isn't even a factor in all circumstances. In this particular build I'm running a 1600 in a node 202. I don't want my 2000 rpm GPU chamber fans ramping up to full speed. Now that I figured out how to limit the max duty cycle this isn't an issue and I don't need AI suite anymore.
 
In most instances I would agree. However if you have high RPM fans you probably don't want them to rev up full speed because they get loud as hell. Non x chips are better manually overclocked so PBO isn't even a factor in all circumstances. In this particular build I'm running a 1600 in a node 202. I don't want my 2000 rpm GPU chamber fans ramping up to full speed. Now that I figured out how to limit the max duty cycle this isn't an issue and I don't need AI suite anymore.
It doesn't matter how big or fast fans are, they shouldn't let temps go that high (75c) as performance will suffer, unless of course you are OK with that.
 

Darkbreeze

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I have a high RPM fan, which is a Noctua NF-A14 2000rpm iPPC industrial model, and while I can't change the maximum temperature higher than 75°C, which you wouldn't want to do anyway because anytime you are at that temperature you want full speed operation, I can in Q-fan control change the maximum SPEED at 75°C or higher so that it only runs at 85% PWM signal which keeps it right at about 1750-1800rpm instead of the full 2000RPM which is a little too high and annoying, and realistically unnecessary, for my setup.

You do have to make THAT specific change to the PWM percentage at max temp in the buried controls in the monitor tab, as you say, but there should also be a graphical Q-fan control applet up above the regular tabs for AI Tweaker, Monitoring, etc., in the BIOS screens. Finer tuning should be done textually, basic curves can be done graphically with an actual curve you can see. I like to set the basic curve graphically and then go back and fine tune it with specific numbers.
 

rigg42

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I have a high RPM fan, which is a Noctua NF-A14 2000rpm iPPC industrial model, and while I can't change the maximum temperature higher than 75°C, which you wouldn't want to do anyway because anytime you are at that temperature you want full speed operation, I can in Q-fan control change the maximum SPEED at 75°C or higher so that it only runs at 85% PWM signal which keeps it right at about 1750-1800rpm instead of the full 2000RPM which is a little too high and annoying, and realistically unnecessary, for my setup.
Right. Same for me as I outlined earlier.
There also is still no way to to set upper temp above 75c but you can set the max duty cycle to whatever % you want so it's not a big deal.
 

rigg42

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It doesn't matter how big or fast fans are, they shouldn't let temps go that high (75c) as performance will suffer, unless of course you are OK with that.
My performance doesn't suffer at all when running the CPU over 75c. It increases performance because I can clock it higher. It's not ideal, and it could degrade the CPU a bit faster over time, although Its a compromise I willing to make with an $80 CPU in a thermally restrictive ITX case. The fans I'm talking about restricting have 0 impact on CPU cooling anyway. All they do is feed fresh air to a blower GPU in a separated chamber. In fact running them at higher RPM is probably worse because it will just cause turbulence. My CPU fan and side exhaust fans are full tilt at 75c.
 
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My performance doesn't suffer at all when running the CPU over 75c. It increases performance because I can clock it higher. It's not ideal and it could degrade the CPU a bit faster over time though. Its a compromise I willing to make with an $80 CPU in a thermally restrictive ITX case. The fans I'm talking about restricting have 0 impact on CPU cooling anyway. All they do is feed fresh air to a blower GPU in a separated chamber. In fact running them at higher RPM is probably worse because it will just cause turbulence. My CPU fan and side exhaust fans are full tilt at 75c.
Oh, I thought it was about CPU cooler fans since you were talking about CPU temps.
 
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rigg42

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Oh, I thought it was about CPU cooler fans since you were talking about CPU temps.
Until this morning when I found the Q-Fan sub menu I was stuck with the GPU chamber fans reading the CPU censor and causing the fans to go full tilt when I didn't want them to. This is why I resorted to AI suite for fan control. Now that I can limit the max duty cycle and use a different sensor I won't be using AI suite any more. I wish I could use the PCI-E sensor like I can in AI suite but it probably doesn't really matter. If I set them to constantly run at 50% it would be totally fine.
 
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gn842a

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Asus AI Suite will do fan control in windows. The bios also works but you get more control with AI suite. I would invest in a better cooler for the 2600x. The stock cooler is pushed to its limits on stock boost settings and is inadequate IMO.
Yes indeed, I have a Noctua from my previous build but I need an adapter for the new AM4. I'm waiting for it and have OEM fan installed for temporary purposes. I must say though OEM cpu fan is impressive and very quiet. I have some concerns that the Noctua will be noisier.

thanks,
Greg N
 

gn842a

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Well I reinstalled the chipset drivers this time from AMD rather than from ASUS.

I don't know what to do about AI suite. It sounds like the stuff that comes on the disk with the mobo. On my F2A-86 VPro from days of yore, the comes-with mobo software was a giant PITA and I uninstalled it.

So have things changed, should I be trying to get AI Suite? Or is it just going to confuse me and get its commands with the UEFI screwed up? (as was the case in the old build) I'm not even sure where to get AI suite unless perhaps its on the disk on my mobo which I haven't used.

I followed the instructions from the Newegg guys and just downloaded drivers from the ASUS web site.

thanks
Greg N
 

prophet51

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To use anywhere near 95w you have to put load on all 6 cores/12threads. Currently after 12hrs uptime and a bit of light gaming my 2600 has a peak wattage of 50w, in gaming it sits between 30-40 watts usually.
And even if you do use all 6c12t 95w still isn't that bad and the stock cooler is pretty potent, don't listen to people saying spend more money on an aftermarket cooler the Spire is a beast(I have the weaker stealth cooler, has a peak temp of 57c after 12 hrs).
 
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rigg42

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Well I reinstalled the chipset drivers this time from AMD rather than from ASUS.

I don't know what to do about AI suite. It sounds like the stuff that comes on the disk with the mobo. On my F2A-86 VPro from days of yore, the comes-with mobo software was a giant PITA and I uninstalled it.

So have things changed, should I be trying to get AI Suite? Or is it just going to confuse me and get its commands with the UEFI screwed up? (as was the case in the old build) I'm not even sure where to get AI suite unless perhaps its on the disk on my mobo which I haven't used.

I followed the instructions from the Newegg guys and just downloaded drivers from the ASUS web site.

thanks
Greg N
Given that you can probably do everything you need from the UEFI I probably wouldn't bother with AI suite. You can download it from the same place you grabbed your drivers if you want to play around with it. Its under utilities.

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/Utility/DEFS_AI_Suite_III_V3.00.51.zip?_ga=2.17872505.179114.1562463220-1546138993.1537063394
 
95w is the maximum base clock thermal design power. It would only pull that under a full load at all core base clock speeds.

At boosted all core speeds, it may pull more than that, as might the 2600 anyhow...
I think that only applies to Intel's definition of TDP, since they altered it some years back to hide the high power draw of their higher-end processors under load. At least with AMD's 2000-series, their TDP seems to take boost clocks into account. I don't think Tom's included power draw measurements in their 2600X review, but they did in their 2700X review. And in that case, the higher-clocked eight-core processor with a TDP of 105 watts only drew 105 watts during their Prime95 torture test, while it drew about 56 watts in their gaming test, 31 watts while running computer-aided design software, and just 13 watts while idling on the desktop. Power draw of the 2600X is likely to be similar under most applications not utilizing all cores, and below 95 watts with all cores under full load.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-7-2700x-review,5571-12.html

The thing is I'm not into overclocking. I was just of the mind that a chip designed for overclocking might be under less load and hence more durable than the regular chip. But when I actually pushed the button on Newegg I failed to notice that that the 2600 is 95W. I probably would not have gotten it had that made its way into my consciousness. My general thinking is that hotter implies more component wear and lowered longevity.
Actually, both the 2600 and 2600X can be overclocked. The 2600X provides higher performance out of the box though, and comes with a better cooler to counter any additional heat generated under load. I wouldn't be too concerned about the heat generated by the processor, especially if you are not running heavy multi-core workloads for extended lengths of time. You rarely hear about CPUs failing, and typically other parts of the system will be more likely to fail, unless perhaps one is pushing their CPU to its limits with an excessively high overclock or something.
 
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