News Why AMD’s Ryzen 7000 and Motherboards Cost So Damn Much

kristoffe

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He only mentioned it four times in the article. Maybe we should try reading the article before racing down to the comments to go to bat for a company that sees you as an ATM machine.
you didn't just make intel seem like they don't see people like ATM machine, did you? And they mentioned the power draw briefly, not in detail. The OP is correct, stop being so contrarian.
 
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Friesiansam

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One thing you will be able to with AMD but, not Intel though, is buy a new and up to date CPU in four years time and, slot into the same motherboard, without any additional hardware needed.

I built an all new PC, except case, in 2018 using an R7 2700, then late last year I fitted an R7 5800X. Quite the step up in performance and, the only extra cost was a new tube of TIM.
 
TL;DR = AMD stopped having to buy marketshare with the Ryzen 5000 launch (which was equally poor value at launch). At this point, they're simply pricing their perceived feature sets against Intel. Clearly AMD thinks highly of their power consumption advantage, even with the higher draw on 7000 series.

I don't see much success for Ryzen 7000 (non 3DVcache). The platform costs are horrible. Performance isn't terribly impressive compared to Intel. And everyone can see where that 5800X3D sits and extrapolate that for when it hits 7000 chips in 6 months or so. Ryzen 5000 + mobo + RAM is sooo cheap for the minimal performance hit. The cards are stacked.
 
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PaulAlcorn

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Would have liked to see amd included in the charts when comparing raptor lake ddr4 vs ddr5 performance

Well, the issue is that the Intel chips are power locked for those comparisons, so I don't think it would be fair to use uncapped Ryzen vs. power-capped Intel. I also have to always be cognizant that our slides are shared with zero context around the net, so these custom test pools need to be constrained to prevent misinterpretation when shared to forums/Twitter/Facebook, etc.

I capped Intel power for DDR4/DDR5 tests because otherwise the motherboard power delivery would influence the test results more than the memory.

However, you can use the 4% average reduction in gaming performance as a measuring stick for the cumulative measurements in the full testing in the first section.
 
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Ok, I've read it and there's a few HUGE questionable things I'd like to point out and open up for discussion here:

1.- MSRP: Intel is RETAILERS 1K TRAY PRICE and not CONSUMER RECOMMENDED UNIT PRICE (what "MSRP" refers to, in short). This is a HUGE difference and you're taking them as they're the same. They are not. Also, there's an important nuance you don't even mention: Intel can change that for big retailers and OEMs, so the real retailing price is even lower for specific retailers for bigger-than-1K bulk. That nuance is super important to mention and explains why, for example, MicroCenter has such low prices compared to a lot of other retailers for Intel CPUs.

2.- TDPs: Intel has the better (now) way of talking power and AMD's "measure" is a joke, since it does not even put power in their formula. Whenever their power consumption matches the TDP, is a coincidence. Ironically, this is a bit disingenuous to Intel as AMD is actually being scummy there. I don't even know why, since just using "base" and "peak" power is way better. At least, both Intel and AMD explicitly mention those. This is an important distinction as well for motherboard power delivery.

2.1.- Cooling: this needs to be it's own investigation, since AMD can get away with paltry cooling and still perform really well, but Intel can't quite do the same. I can't really say for sure AMD "compensates" price with this, but I can absolutely say AMD can get away with cheaper cooling for all of their line up whereas Intel's 13600K is the only CPU that can. Both the i7 and i9 13K are just monsters at full bore and unrestricted. Vis a vis, if someone is willing to tweak either camp, both get great efficiency improvements, but I will still say AMD comes out on top.

3.- Motherboard Power Delivery: It is KNOWN bottom tier Intel motherboards can't power i9's and, I'm pretty sure, now they may even have issues with the 13600K. This is not mentioned and made explicit enough for buyers to be aware of. If you trick yourself into thinking you can pair a 13900K with a bottom tier B660, you're in for a nasty surprise. AMD does not have this problem and it is one of the reasons why B650 also has a high base price compared to B550, along with PCIe5 support. There's other nuances when talking platform, but they're less relevant and power is the important thing to mention here. So, this is to say, AMD just put a better "baseline" for the AIBs to follow and Intel's "baseline" is complete garbage.

4.- DDR comparison. The results are ok and the conclusion based off them is correct. Problem is that there's newer games out there which show huge differences in DDR generations and they're not being discussed here. If someone is building a platform with DDR4 needs to be aware that, more than likely, newer games will punish slower RAM bandwidth with huge FPS loses. Best example would be Spiderman's PC port.

5.- Motherboard Feature Set: I'm not too big on making this a central point, but worth pointing out anyway. AM5 is the better platform vs Z690 and Z790, period. Whatever price difference you see, is reflective of this. As pointed out: if you're going for a high cost system, ~$50 of price difference on the same "tier" motherboard is peanuts.

Overall, everything else seems spot on and I agree with. Business strategy for AMD is clearly maximizing their higher margin parts and see if they can do something with the mid-tier range. Keep in mind they haven't even announced any lower tier CPUs and Intel is doing an Alder Lake rebrand for almost everything under the i5 13600K.

Regards.
 

PaulAlcorn

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Ok, I've read it and there's a few HUGE questionable things I'd like to point out and open up for discussion here:

<snip>

Regards.

Thanks for the feedback.

1.) Yes, Intel and AMD's pricing communication is different, but Intel's pricing often falls at or near the 1000K unit value at retail. You can find Raptor chips at that pricing in a few locations already, but it will definitely be close to that in time. We always see gouging in early sales with both Intel and AMD. Using Intel's 1000K pricing is imperfect, but we can't use retail pricing because it is too spotty and sales can be short. It is also entirely not unheard of to see an incumbent product having sale pricing right before reviews of a competing product, thus resulting in unnaturally low pricing being used for comparison in reviews.

2.) Yes, TDP isn't an actual measure of power for AMD, but it is a decent approximation for power draw — AMD itself says that as well. I've never liked how either company specs TDP, but that's just me railing against the machine. TDP is the closest to general power guidelines that we have, so it is what we and the entire industry use as the basic measuring stick.

2.1) We actually have a feature dedicated to just that. It comes out tomorrow.

3.) I added a passage to make this more clear. Thanks for the feedback.

4.) Yeah, there are so many games it really makes it hard to make any definitive statements.

5.) Kinda the same situation with this one. There are so many motherboards with so many features that we shouldn't really make too many all-encompassing statements that aren't always accurate in all comparisons. There are seemingly a million boards, so that would be hard to quantify without spending a few days and making one super massive table.

Thanks!
 
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DavidLejdar

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I went for DDR5 anyhow (upgrading from DDR3), and went for AM5. Sure though, I could have saved a bit of money going for an Intel chipset MB supporting DDR5. But with this X670E, I have both x16 PCIe 5.0 lanes for the GPU and x4 PCIe 5.0 lanes for M.2 SSD - something Intel doesn't offer like that yet.

And that won't be "needed" for quite some time i.e. in regard to gaming. In my view, instead of spending a bit less now to then just end up paying for a whole new rig in a year or two when wanting to make full use of a new-gen GPU, I spent a bit more now and can then just plop in a new GPU without any further expense. And similar in regard to a CPU upgrade down the line, where it seems likely that the next-gen Intel CPUs will need a new MB.

And also the DDR5 sure isn't "needed" these days for casual gaming in particular. From what I understand, DDR5 gives better performance even to current-gen CPUs (with the increased DDR5 bandwidth helping the workload of multi-cores). So I went for that, instead of paying less for DDR4 to then use it perhaps only a year.

If someone is looking for a completely budget build, then the newest hardware sure isn't likely to be on the top of the list, as always though. Or when someone has a DDR4 rig and isn't hitting a performance issue about games they play, there sure isn't a need for an (full) upgrade right now, and nice for them that they can wait until prices drop. And so on. Myself, I am setting up a rig good enough for smooth 1440p gaming even for newer games, and as far as requirements go, it should be good enough for at least several years about MB and RAM, with option to upgrade CPU later on.
 

mlambert890

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It's really not accurate to say the 5800X3D "offers more gaming performance". Much like with Zen3, it offers situationally more performance. If you care primarily about the games that benefit most from cache, and particularly if you play at lower res, and really don't need peak productivity performance, then it was great. But at 4k its net advantage even against its Zen3 siblings was ~7%. It's not even that against Zen4, and now is utterly decimated in anything non gaming.

The TLDR here is modern TSMC process nodes are expensive, as is chiplet architecture. If you want a modern design, you have to pay. The benefit is more perf per watt. Meteor Lake is supposedly shifting to TSMC 7nm (vs 5nm for AMD) and a chiplet architecture as well, so this may be the last bit of "free" win Intel can get out of Intel7. Next gen Intel will be facing all of the same challenges, given a new socket is coming, exacerbated by ML being "v 1.0" of a seismic shift

Either way competition is good.
 
Thanks for the feedback.

1.) Yes, Intel and AMD's pricing communication is different, but Intel's pricing often falls at or near the 1000K unit value at retail. You can find Raptor chips at that pricing in a few locations already, but it will definitely be close to that in time. We always see gouging in early sales with both Intel and AMD. Using Intel's 1000K pricing is imperfect, but we can't use retail pricing because it is too spotty and sales can be short. It is also entirely not unheard of to see an incumbent product having sale pricing right before reviews of a competing product, thus resulting in unnaturally low pricing being used for comparison in reviews.

2.) Yes, TDP isn't an actual measure of power for AMD, but it is a decent approximation for power draw — AMD itself says that as well. I've never liked how either company specs TDP, but that's just me railing against the machine. TDP is the closest to general power guidelines that we have, so it is what we and the entire industry use as the basic measuring stick.

3.) I added a passage to make this more clear. Thanks for the feedback.

4.) Yeah, there are so many games it really makes it hard to make any definitive statements.

5.) Kinda the same situation with this one. There are so many motherboards with so many features that we shouldn't really make too many all-encompassing statements that aren't always accurate in all comparisons. There are seemingly a million boards, so that would be hard to quantify without spending a few days and making one super massive table.

Thanks!
Thanks as well Paul for addressing my points!

Just one more final comment on #1, if you don't mind: this is an unfair (I think?) way to compare to AMD because, like it or not, they've been actually quite steady/accurate/truthful in the MSRP and you can check that in their page, as they sell their own CPUs there. They reflect all their MSRPs there for both GPUs and CPUs, whereas Intel is hiding it via the 1K-TP. This is something that no one brings up often in price discussions. This being said, I also understand your point and why I didn't even suggest using actual retail pricing either as it does vary wildly at times. It's just that... This is not caveat'ed enough and it's just Intel being scummy in the way they communicate pricing to consumers via the specialized press. It irks me a bit, to be honest.

And as for the games. I wish Jarred had more time to test more games, but I'm aware of the insane effort you guys take for these, so not going to complain there.

Regards.
 

mickrc3

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This spring I evaluated all of the costs and considerations of the Zen 4 and decided it was better to do an incremental upgrade from a Zen2 Ryzen 9 3900X to a Ryzen 9 5900X and do the same for my two sons computers, putting the estimated savings into buying faster GPUs. No motherboard or RAM changes needed. The older Ryzen CPUs were not wasted but put into some B550 MBs and handed over to my siblings for their kids. That makes six AMD computer families that will skip the 7xxx CPU chips for at least 2 years. It will be that long before I consider an upgrade. And since everything would need to change I may go back to doing Intel builds. Haven't done that for myself since 2006 though I have put together Intel systems for former co-workers.
 

Kamen Rider Blade

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Ok, I've read it and there's a few HUGE questionable things I'd like to point out and open up for discussion here:

1.- MSRP: Intel is RETAILERS 1K TRAY PRICE and not CONSUMER RECOMMENDED UNIT PRICE (what "MSRP" refers to, in short). This is a HUGE difference and you're taking them as they're the same. They are not. Also, there's an important nuance you don't even mention: Intel can change that for big retailers and OEMs, so the real retailing price is even lower for specific retailers for bigger-than-1K bulk. That nuance is super important to mention and explains why, for example, MicroCenter has such low prices compared to a lot of other retailers for Intel CPUs.
This needs a dedicated article and corresponding link in every article that talks about comparind AMD & Intel pricing.
This needs to be repeatedly hammered home to the public so that there is no confusion to how AMD's MSRP works with Intel's Tray Pricing and how it isn't reflective of MSRP.

2.- TDPs: Intel has the better (now) way of talking power and AMD's "measure" is a joke, since it does not even put power in their formula. Whenever their power consumption matches the TDP, is a coincidence. Ironically, this is a bit disingenuous to Intel as AMD is actually being scummy there. I don't even know why, since just using "base" and "peak" power is way better. At least, both Intel and AMD explicitly mention those. This is an important distinction as well for motherboard power delivery.
We need tell both companies to knock it off with the TDP non-sense. It's become a giant farce at this point.
I think we need to focus on how much power the socket is rated to deliver and that's what we should be concentrating on since each CPU socket has a rated maximum power load.
Doesn't matter if it's continuous power load or momentary power spikes, we need to know that info and compare & contrast.

2.1.- Cooling: this needs to be it's own investigation, since AMD can get away with paltry cooling and still perform really well, but Intel can't quite do the same. I can't really say for sure AMD "compensates" price with this, but I can absolutely say AMD can get away with cheaper cooling for all of their line up whereas Intel's 13600K is the only CPU that can. Both the i7 and i9 13K are just monsters at full bore and unrestricted. Vis a vis, if someone is willing to tweak either camp, both get great efficiency improvements, but I will still say AMD comes out on top.
Yeah, performance relative to how much cooling you're willing to throw at it needs to be detailed with precision & granularity.
Also, Intel's 13th gen Thermal Throttles very easily compared to 12th gen, that needs it's own article on how that affects performance.

3.- Motherboard Power Delivery: It is KNOWN bottom tier Intel motherboards can't power i9's and, I'm pretty sure, now they may even have issues with the 13600K. This is not mentioned and made explicit enough for buyers to be aware of. If you trick yourself into thinking you can pair a 13900K with a bottom tier B660, you're in for a nasty surprise. AMD does not have this problem and it is one of the reasons why B650 also has a high base price compared to B550, along with PCIe5 support. There's other nuances when talking platform, but they're less relevant and power is the important thing to mention here. So, this is to say, AMD just put a better "baseline" for the AIBs to follow and Intel's "baseline" is complete garbage.
I think the reviewers need to validate how much power can the MoBo deliver and what CPU it can support without ham-stringing it on power delivery / performance relative to other MoBo's with superior Power / VRM setups. Hardware Unboxed has discovered certain B-series MoBo's that shouldn't be labelled the way it is, because their VRM setups are so poor that it handicaps performance.

We also need everybody to run at stock Intel CPU settings instead of MoBo, Pre-OCed settings.
That gives you a Apples to Apples comparison.
GN has made entire articles on that.

4.- DDR comparison. The results are ok and the conclusion based off them is correct. Problem is that there's newer games out there which show huge differences in DDR generations and they're not being discussed here. If someone is building a platform with DDR4 needs to be aware that, more than likely, newer games will punish slower RAM bandwidth with huge FPS loses. Best example would be Spiderman's PC port.
But not every game benefits from DDR4 -> DDR5 jump.
Some games benefit from the Bandwidth boost.
Other games are latency sensitive.
There's no one solution and that needs to be highlighted.

There's no magical answer, that needs to be made clear.

5.- Motherboard Feature Set: I'm not too big on making this a central point, but worth pointing out anyway. AM5 is the better platform vs Z690 and Z790, period. Whatever price difference you see, is reflective of this. As pointed out: if you're going for a high cost system, ~$50 of price difference on the same "tier" motherboard is peanuts.
It depends on what features matter to you. That could literally be a personal judgement call.

Overall, everything else seems spot on and I agree with. Business strategy for AMD is clearly maximizing their higher margin parts and see if they can do something with the mid-tier range. Keep in mind they haven't even announced any lower tier CPUs and Intel is doing an Alder Lake rebrand for almost everything under the i5 13600K.
I have no issue with Intel re-branding AlderLake, it makes the best use of their resources.
AMD has done it in the past, Intel should be fine doing the same.
As long as both are transparent about their rebranding, we should be ok.
 
This needs a dedicated article and corresponding link in every article that talks about comparind AMD & Intel pricing.
This needs to be repeatedly hammered home to the public so that there is no confusion to how AMD's MSRP works with Intel's Tray Pricing and how it isn't reflective of MSRP.
What's it matter? Tray pricing or MSRP? The retail price of both 13th gen and Ryzen 7000 are ~30% higher across the board from each respective MSRP right now.
 

edzieba

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However, it's hard to recommend this path unless you buy a motherboard with BIOS Flashback functionality or already own the board. That's because 600-series motherboards require a BIOS update to work with Raptor Lake, and there’s no easy way to determine if a new board you buy at retail has the correct BIOS.
Unlike on AM4, this is a complete nonissue on Intel platforms. You could have purchased a launch x6xx board, never touched the BIOS, and drop a Raptor Like chip in and it will boot no problem. A BIOS update may still be a good idea if there have been any microcode tweaks to improve performance or security, but they're not a necessity to even POST as it is on AM4.
 
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This spring I evaluated all of the costs and considerations of the Zen 4 and decided it was better to do an incremental upgrade from a Zen2 Ryzen 9 3900X to a Ryzen 9 5900X and do the same for my two sons computers, putting the estimated savings into buying faster GPUs. No motherboard or RAM changes needed. The older Ryzen CPUs were not wasted but put into some B550 MBs and handed over to my siblings for their kids. That makes six AMD computer families that will skip the 7xxx CPU chips for at least 2 years. It will be that long before I consider an upgrade. And since everything would need to change I may go back to doing Intel builds. Haven't done that for myself since 2006 though I have put together Intel systems for former co-workers.
Note that you upgraded your AMD builds. That's not an option with Intel.
 
Woah nellie.
Well we've been asking for apples to apples comparisons for years and Tom's just keeps pumping out the same reviews with Intel chips on an open bench drawing 300W while AMD draws 200W. EVERY headline is pro-Intel, even when their benchmarks show AMD beats Intel on multi-threaded productivity software consistently at each product level (currently true for 7000 series vs. Raptor Lake).

If Intel's not footing the bill, I'd like them to EVER respond to my claims that they are. But they NEVER disagree, even though the writer sometimes responds in the thread.

To clarify, the ONE article I found that allowed Intel to throttle like it does in real life (see Reddit), showed Intel losing 11% to over 30% performance--meaning in real life, it LOSES at every segment.
 
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"Now, it's well-known that Intel’s chips consume more power than Ryzen, [...]"

That doesn't count?
No, not when you still insist that Intel performs better with no reasonable checks on that. I mean this from an engineering/scientist background where your experiment has a control.
"...2.1.- Cooling: this needs to be it's own investigation, since AMD can get away with paltry cooling and still perform really well, but Intel can't quite do the same..."
2.1) We actually have a feature dedicated to just that. It comes out tomorrow.
Okay, great! I will completely stop complaining when I see this article that I've been asking for since 2019.
 
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