Why are so many wargamers losers with no social skills?

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Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

I'll repeat the topic - why are so many wargamers losers with no
social skills?

These days, I largely confine myself to painting and setting up
miniature battlefields. I used to play games, but seldom do so any
more.

Why? Take a trip to the local shop that has a big gaming room in the
back on a weekend. You'll hear all sorts of profanity and demeaning
talk about women, nitpicking arguments that go on and on, and many of
the participants need hygiene lessons. I tend just to go in quickly,
look over what is new, get what I need and leave. I don't want to be
around these people, and I never take my wife or my young son into the
place, although I'd like for him to share my hobby interests as he
grows older. I see the same rude, ignorant, slobs at shows, too.
They give the hobby a bad name.

Thankfully there is eBay and ordering online, so one can avoid such an
atmosphere. But if I need just some paint and brushes to finish up a
project, that is where I need to go.

I can really see why people in the hobby are viewed the way they are
by the public at large. Too bad, because this should be a fun hobby.
People who have no lives outside their hobbies who are deadly serious
about everything and who are completely lacking in social skills would
really do us and themselves a favor by getting out in the world a bit
more. This also extends to the very juvenile bickering I see in this
newsgroup.

Off the soapbox for now.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Volthoom" <volthoom2004@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:t4rs905j0eivmtbpt6ncroa72o8srdk5i8@4ax.com...
> I'll repeat the topic - why are so many wargamers losers with no
> social skills?

Oh look. A Bob Jones sockpuppet!

--Ty
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Ty" <tbeardSPAM@tyler.net> wrote in message news:<109stuj713oo844@corp.supernews.com>...
> "Volthoom" <volthoom2004@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:t4rs905j0eivmtbpt6ncroa72o8srdk5i8@4ax.com...
> > I'll repeat the topic - why are so many wargamers losers with no
> > social skills?
>
> Oh look. A Bob Jones sockpuppet!
>
> --Ty

BJ: Sorry, Ty. Not my note...If you look at the expanded header, it
appears to be from the West Coast (PDT). In any case, I have always
thought that wargamers directly reflect the general public-for better
or worse. No smarter-no dumber, no more sophisticated, nor declasse.
I also firmly believe in the 80/20 rule when applied to the hobby
regarding most any characteristic.

The hobby may have a slightly more white, middle-class, fantasy
Republican, goofy adolescent anglo-saxon male streak than the general
public, but not to any great extent. There are some very bright
people in the hobby, including yourself, whose worst fault may be a
rather narrow experential basis for their beliefs. In it's worst
form-amusing-never of more serious import. They play with toy
soldiers after all, never the real thing such as the neocons do.

BJ
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

> You'll hear all sorts of profanity and demeaning
>talk about women,

I've never really heard this at any of the stores I visit. The occassional
cuss word, usually following dropping something, but nothing pervasive.

The nitpicking arguements sort of depend. If it is about rules, I have no love
of it. If it is about some obscure factoid regarding a battle, or weapon
performance, etc., I rather enjoy some of those for thier own sake.

>and many of
>the participants need hygiene lessons.

I almost always only found this at conventions where some fiolks may not have a
room. There are always a few exceptions, but I've never noticed anything worse
than the general population.

>People who have no lives outside their hobbies who are deadly serious
>about everything

Hmmm, I've never had a problem with a person being serious about things. Of
course, I've also never met anyone who is able to be serious 100% of the time.

>This also extends to the very juvenile bickering I see in this
>newsgroup.

Please clairify the difference between "juvenile bickering" and an airing of
differences? Certainly many of the OT posts I have followed have been little
more than WWI meets the usenet (nod to Ty for the first reference to this
idea). But many of them have their lighter moments, and sometimes some good
points are raised or information exchanged (not often maybe, but it happens).
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Guess you are just mixing with the wrong sort of players.

--
Justin Taylor
justin@hellou2.fsnet.co.uk
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Mike Hillsgrove" <mikeah@cablespeed.com> wrote in message
news:109thsfll2rss77@corp.supernews.com...

> > Why? Take a trip to the local shop that has a big gaming room in the
> > back on a weekend. You'll hear all sorts of profanity and demeaning
> > talk about women,
>
> Because perhaps most of us are MEN. Males.

Good point. You know, I almost replied with a comment that I hear far worse
on hunting trips and at poker games. Perhaps it's just in the nature of guys
to be crude -- especially when hanging out with other guys.

--Ty
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Bob Jones" <highwiremedia@earthlink.net> wrote in message

> In it's worst
> form-amusing-never of more serious import. They play with toy
> soldiers after all, never the real thing such as the neocons do.

Invitation still declined -- but nice try.

--Ty
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

> I am a political conservative.

So.

> I am quite happliy married to an intelligent woman whose company I
> enjoy. You appear to have serious issues with regard to women.

No issues at all. I'm just not stupid enough to think that they are the
"same as". I find them quite useful at times.

> About your other comments, I never suggested that every other person
> in the hobby was somehow inferior to me or fit the description I
> provided. I said that many, but not all, people in the hobby were not
> the type I care to spend free time with. You appear to be someone I
> would not want to spend an afternoon with.

That is precisely what you said. Quite directly in fact. I don't carry your
picture around in my wallet either.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Volthoom made some observations and it seems that now he is a target because
others have not necessarily observed the same things about the hobby.. or at
least they do not see things the same way. Well, I have to say that I have made
the same observations Volthoom did so I am going to weigh in on this topic.

I game with a great group of guys, professionals and blue collar, all with a
love of military history and miniatures and a willingness to discuss those
topics as well as other topics of the day. I know of a couple of other similiar
groups within a few miles of ours and we regularly have guys visiting each
others games. That said there are a lot of people in this hobby, more than the
percentage of the general population who need a lesson in personal hygeine,
manners, interpersonal skills and simple respect. That is to be expected in a
hobby based forum, especially one that allows its participants to escape
reality and assume the persona of someone else... be it an Italian Field
Marshall or a Colonel in the Colonial Militia. Visit any convention, sponsored
by any entity within the historical miniatures sphere, and you will see that
the biggest drawback to attracting more people to the hobby is not the games or
the miniatures or the rules... it is some of the people.

I love war gaming but lets be honest about who and what the hobby consists of.

My .02 worth.
Bill
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Sadly, I can attest to some of the comments made about the "guys"
hanging out in a hobby shop, shooting their mouths off loudly, and in
profanities. While a few of these are older gamers who you'd think
would know better, most are younger males just out of high school or in
college. I'd hate to stereotype them, but more often than not they are
Evil Empire players. I've heard, and seen them offend and drive other
younger and adult gamers, as well as visiting guests, shoppers and
parents. I'm always surprised that a shop would tolerate this behavior.

Frankly I blame this on the shop owner(s). For every professionally
run, and controlled environment store, there seems to be one that is
just short of being a gang hang out (if you can assume that these
loudmouths appear threatening). If I can admit to guessing, it would
appear to me that historical gaming has fewer of these people than does
science fiction gaming.

While I rarely see such types at the local cons I attend, I will admit
that I attend smaller historical ones in the upper mid west where such
behavior would not be accepted, and people are asked to leave at times.
Most of the gamers I know are interested in the hobby, enjoy gaming for
gaming sake and treat others with respect.

Now, as to the overweight part...

Dan

WARGAMING wrote:

>Volthoom made some observations and it seems that now he is a target because
>others have not necessarily observed the same things about the hobby.. or at
>least they do not see things the same way. Well, I have to say that I have made
>the same observations Volthoom did so I am going to weigh in on this topic.
>
>I game with a great group of guys, professionals and blue collar, all with a
>love of military history and miniatures and a willingness to discuss those
>topics as well as other topics of the day. I know of a couple of other similiar
>groups within a few miles of ours and we regularly have guys visiting each
>others games. That said there are a lot of people in this hobby, more than the
>percentage of the general population who need a lesson in personal hygeine,
>manners, interpersonal skills and simple respect. That is to be expected in a
>hobby based forum, especially one that allows its participants to escape
>reality and assume the persona of someone else... be it an Italian Field
>Marshall or a Colonel in the Colonial Militia. Visit any convention, sponsored
>by any entity within the historical miniatures sphere, and you will see that
>the biggest drawback to attracting more people to the hobby is not the games or
>the miniatures or the rules... it is some of the people.
>
>I love war gaming but lets be honest about who and what the hobby consists of.
>
>My .02 worth.
>Bill
>
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Justin Taylor" <justint@hellou2.*takethisout*fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c7lth1$nud$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Guess you are just mixing with the wrong sort of players.


Quite.
cheers,
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

On 9 May 2004 17:08:51 -0700, highwiremedia@earthlink.net (Bob Jones)
wrote:

>BJ: Sorry, Ty. Not my note...If you look at the expanded header, it
>appears to be from the West Coast (PDT).

No - posted from Dear Old Dixie.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

On 10 May 2004 00:25:57 GMT, wargaming@aol.com (WARGAMING) wrote:

>Volthoom made some observations and it seems that now he is a target because
>others have not necessarily observed the same things about the hobby.. or at
>least they do not see things the same way. Well, I have to say that I have made
>the same observations Volthoom did so I am going to weigh in on this topic.
>
>I game with a great group of guys, professionals and blue collar, all with a
>love of military history and miniatures and a willingness to discuss those
>topics as well as other topics of the day. I know of a couple of other similiar
>groups within a few miles of ours and we regularly have guys visiting each
>others games. That said there are a lot of people in this hobby, more than the
>percentage of the general population who need a lesson in personal hygeine,
>manners, interpersonal skills and simple respect. That is to be expected in a
>hobby based forum, especially one that allows its participants to escape
>reality and assume the persona of someone else... be it an Italian Field
>Marshall or a Colonel in the Colonial Militia. Visit any convention, sponsored
>by any entity within the historical miniatures sphere, and you will see that
>the biggest drawback to attracting more people to the hobby is not the games or
>the miniatures or the rules... it is some of the people.
>
>I love war gaming but lets be honest about who and what the hobby consists of.
>
>My .02 worth.
>Bill

You understand exactly what I am talking about and make severall good
points.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

On 09 May 2004 18:02:09 GMT, samvanga@aol.com (SamVanga) wrote:

>Please clairify the difference between "juvenile bickering" and an airing of
>differences?

When airing of differences degenerates into name-calling and
equivalent grade school playground "wit."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

On Sun, 9 May 2004 13:30:55 -0500, "Ty" <tbeardSPAM@tyler.net> wrote:

>"Volthoom" <volthoom2004@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:t4rs905j0eivmtbpt6ncroa72o8srdk5i8@4ax.com...
>> I'll repeat the topic - why are so many wargamers losers with no
>> social skills?
>
>Oh look. A Bob Jones sockpuppet!

No, wrong.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

On Sun, 9 May 2004 19:32:53 +0100, "Justin Taylor"
<justint@hellou2.*takethisout*fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>Guess you are just mixing with the wrong sort of players.

Certainly not all of the people in the hobby I run into are like what
I described. It is just that a good many of them (I won't speculate
percentage-wise, since one tends to notice the loud and obnoxious, but
it is a large percentage) are. Perhaps it is different on your side of
the Atlantic. I don't know how many yobbish wargamers you have over
there.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

On Sun, 9 May 2004 20:19:27 -0400, "Mike Hillsgrove"
<mikeah@cablespeed.com> wrote:

>Define Loser. Is a loser someone YOU don't like, someone who doesn't
>measure up to YOUR standards? What ARE your standards? And just what gives
>you the right to set up standards that all of us - the great unwashed - must
>be measured by?

Hit a nerve, did I?
I never suggested that I could establish standards for the rest of the
world.
However, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect simple courtesy
and civility from other people.
I don't care to be around people who have made it through puberty and
still think that burping and farting are the height of hilarity, or
who routinely refer to all women as bitches, or who stink.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

> I never suggested that I could establish standards for the rest of the
> world.

Which in fact you have.

> I don't care to be around people who have made it through puberty and
> still think that burping and farting are the height of hilarity, or
> who routinely refer to all women as bitches, or who stink.

ibid.

Find a different hobby. You will find that nothing changes.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Ty startled all and sundry by ejaculating the following words of wisdom

> Good point. You know, I almost replied with a comment that I hear far
> worse on hunting trips and at poker games. Perhaps it's just in the
> nature of guys to be crude -- especially when hanging out with other
> guys.

In my experience a group of women can be far cruder with no men about.

--
rob singers
pull finger to reply
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Robert Singers" <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94E59947ACA5Ersingers@IP-Hidden...
> Ty startled all and sundry by ejaculating the following words of wisdom
>
> > Good point. You know, I almost replied with a comment that I hear far
> > worse on hunting trips and at poker games. Perhaps it's just in the
> > nature of guys to be crude -- especially when hanging out with other
> > guys.
>
> In my experience a group of women can be far cruder with no men about.

Maybe so. I don't have much experience secretly observing groups of women --
my loss, probably -- so I wouldn't know. But my experience with all male
groups is that profanity, off-color jokes and general political
incorrectness are pretty common and not particularly concentrated among
wargamers.

--Ty
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

On Sun, 09 May 2004 21:08:07 -0500, "Dan D. Cyr" <dancyr@execpc.com>
wrote:

>Frankly I blame this on the shop owner(s). For every professionally
>run, and controlled environment store, there seems to be one that is
>just short of being a gang hang out (if you can assume that these
>loudmouths appear threatening). If I can admit to guessing, it would
>appear to me that historical gaming has fewer of these people than does
>science fiction gaming.

Agree with the comment about the shop owners. I have made comments to
owners or employees in the past. What usually happens is that they
apologize to me but do nothing about the obnoxious people. I don't
know why the slobs can't just stay at home and be as obnoxious as they
want to be. I have two theories about that: 1) mom won't let them; 2)
they want an audience for their antics.

I do agree that the SF/fantasy end of things does have more people
like this than does historical, but we have our share.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

On Mon, 10 May 2004 00:25:06 -0400, "Mike Hillsgrove"
<mikeah@cablespeed.com> wrote:

>> I am a political conservative.
>
>So.

So I don't have "liberal" ideas about women as you suggested.

>> I am quite happliy married to an intelligent woman whose company I
>> enjoy. You appear to have serious issues with regard to women.
>
>No issues at all. I'm just not stupid enough to think that they are the
>"same as". I find them quite useful at times.

Yes, I expect you are a big hit with the ladies.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

>I don't know how many yobbish wargamers you have over
>there.

Neither would I. I don't hang out with yobs.

--
Justin Taylor
justin@hellou2.fsnet.co.uk
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

>In my experience a group of women can be far cruder with no men about.

You ain't kidding brother. I heard more, and learned more hanging out with the
secretaries and receptionists at the law firm than with the guys who worked for
me. Some of those gals were great (actually, several of them were what I
always wanted, ladies in 'public' and -not- in bed, to borrow fromt he
Victorians). But whoa Nelly, when the talk was just among friends, I fair
blush to recall some of it.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

>. I don't have much experience secretly observing groups of women

Don't do it secretly, too easy to miss the good bits. Just hang out with them
and if they like you, your education will begin. <Yee Haw!>
 
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