Edit: TheDarkOne198 posted exactly the kind of explanation I was looking for. Synphul also posted an excellent explanation of the market/financial side of things. Everyone contributed greatly to the thread, and I enjoyed reading every post. Thank you, everyone, who posted. I know in the future I'll re-read this thread, and I know people in the future will see and read this thread. Thank you, everyone! 😀
TheDarkOne198's answer:
Synphul's answer:
Again, thank you everyone for contributing to the thread!
Original question:
Okay, so first I'd like to say I am NOT trying to start a flame war or an AMD vs Intel war. I'm only familiar with AMD, and do not know much about Intel (aside from how Hyper Threading works). Please avoid starting flame wars.
While scrolling through PCPartPicker's CPU list, time and time again I notice Intel CPUs being far more expensive than an AMD equivalent (or a better AMD). Why is this? Intel is a smart company, so they wouldn't make their components so pricey without good reason.
As an example, why is the i7-4820K $335? Why is it more expensive than an FX-6300? An FX-8350?
Again, I'm not trying to start any flame wars. I'm extremely curious about this, as it seems there's no pattern between CPUs. A $1k Intel CPU with slower speeds has a higher TDP than the faster lower TDP Intel CPU, for example (again, for example).
Am I missing something? Is there some secret Intel chip inside that turns each i7 into a 7-head-robo-hydra? Maybe a robotic Elmo that laughs and hugs you to death? Or... maybe... that robohead on all of Intel's boxes????
TheDarkOne198's answer:
TheDarkOne198 :
lets not forget certain other factors,such as the fact that AMD used a CMT (Clustered Multi Threading) design called Bulldozer (colloquially known as "CAT Cores",e.g. Caterpillar) a more server oriented design that assumes all cores being used equally,against the STRONG recommendations of them not using it from their design staff,because the marketing side of the company wanted something out right away (Source: The Tek). They should have probably started a new design from scratch,something they are doing now,or continued along the Phenom path,with higher speed single cores. The Zen CPU designs are using SMT (Simultaneous Multi Threading) which has been used by Intel for quite some time and is basically what HT is,just with a fancy name. AMD has also made some dumb decisions in the past,though I attribute that more to pressure on them. I know I make some dumb decisions myself when under pressure,sometimes. A corporation with staff to warn against things should be more immune to this,though and some argue that buying ATI was also a big mistake,though I personally think there is a lot of potential in the HSA (Heterogeneous System Architecture) and HUMA (Heterogeneous Unified Memory Architecture) ideas that buying ATI flourished. Lots of potential there,but it is probably very much ahead of its time as it requires software to develop in a manner that uses the GPU in an APU for computing,especially if used for floating point. Technically speaking,an APU could (possibly,IMO) stomp an i7 quad core with HT,if software was coded to use it and its GPU properly (source: "Sapphire" Ed on Tech Talk with Jaystwocents and Baraculese Nerdgasm). There is,of course the source of that pressure,that being Intel. There is all the shady things Intel has tried to do in the past that border,if not cross the line,on trying to form a monopoly (paying OEM's,or giving them major discounts to not use AMD chips in their PC's). That financially hurt AMD a lot and while Intel got in trouble for it and AMD MAY have squandered the money they won from the court case by buying ATI. Intel has continued to use some somewhat shady practices,though not strictly illegal,I dont think. Just questionable. They are more expensive,as SBM said,because they basically can be due to having market share. This is exactly WHY AMD should be supported,IMO. If AMD goes out of business,its BAD NEWS for Intel fans. No competition in the X86-64 market will cause Intel to charge way more. I bet a dual core Pentium would end up being near $200 USD and the i5 or i7? Forget about it. I do have some pretty good faith in AMD in the future,though. I am hoping that Zen will do well and will likely upgrade to it (after seeing some benchmarks and comparisons,of course) and AMD separating the Radeon division was likely a great move. The Radeon guys can now basically do what they are meant to do,which is design the best GPU they can along with the drivers for it while the parent company's designers can focus its time and resources on the CPU side. I am hoping AMD can turn themselves around and secure at least 40% of the market,or more. That will force Intel to lower prices,which is healthier for all consumers.
synphul :
It could go either way with competition but just because amd has lower prices at the moment doesn't mean that will necessarily continue. It might and it might not. They can't really charge more than they are based on current performance to keep price/performance competitive. There might be a few dollars in savings but being competitively priced doesn't mean giving it away either.
Assuming zen can make substantial improvements and catch up to intel's performance they have a choice. Try and undercut intel and make the competition tighter possibly causing intel to lower prices. The other option is if they're delivering intel level performance they may increase the price of their cpu's to match intel.
Having a history of less expensive cpu's doesn't mean amd is a charity, they need to make money. In their current financial position they need to make all the money they can to pay off debts and cover the costs of all the r&d put into zen. That could just as easily mean intel-like prices instead of brand new high performing cpu's at old outdated lesser performing cpu prices. If they were to produce a zen cpu capable of competing head to head with a $250-350 i5/i7 I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for a $165 price tag.
This isn't just in cpu's it's business in general. Pepsi and coke used to sell 2L bottles of soda for around 95 cents. Then $1.05 and eventually $1.25 and so on. When pepsi's price went up to $1.25 coca cola's response wasn't to permanently leave their competing soft drink at 90 cents for the same size bottle. They increased price together. Rather than playing a price war of cut throat price games trying to undercut and outsell the competition they sort of 'agree' on a price. Price wars are great for consumers but getting out of hand means cutting deeply into profits and cutting their nose to spite their face.
If coke and pepsi were the only two soft drinks available there's nothing preventing them from deciding together to keep prices similar and both raise them. What are people going to do? They can either stop drinking the product or pay up. Bigger profits for both companies, it's a win win. If companies purely marketed on the premise of undercutting their competition companies would be broke and everything would be dirt cheap but that's definitely not the case.
In the case of amd/intel, intel's latest chips have gone up in price. While it may not be great news to the consumer it may actually help amd. Instead of being forced to sell a new cpu at $180 they may have more wiggle room to up their price to say $200 or $220 and still remain price competitive with intel. The further intel lowers their prices the lower amd is forced to lower theirs and their profit margins could be negated. Lowering prices far enough and long enough intel could easily put amd out of business by not giving them room to earn a profit they desperately need.
Assuming zen can make substantial improvements and catch up to intel's performance they have a choice. Try and undercut intel and make the competition tighter possibly causing intel to lower prices. The other option is if they're delivering intel level performance they may increase the price of their cpu's to match intel.
Having a history of less expensive cpu's doesn't mean amd is a charity, they need to make money. In their current financial position they need to make all the money they can to pay off debts and cover the costs of all the r&d put into zen. That could just as easily mean intel-like prices instead of brand new high performing cpu's at old outdated lesser performing cpu prices. If they were to produce a zen cpu capable of competing head to head with a $250-350 i5/i7 I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for a $165 price tag.
This isn't just in cpu's it's business in general. Pepsi and coke used to sell 2L bottles of soda for around 95 cents. Then $1.05 and eventually $1.25 and so on. When pepsi's price went up to $1.25 coca cola's response wasn't to permanently leave their competing soft drink at 90 cents for the same size bottle. They increased price together. Rather than playing a price war of cut throat price games trying to undercut and outsell the competition they sort of 'agree' on a price. Price wars are great for consumers but getting out of hand means cutting deeply into profits and cutting their nose to spite their face.
If coke and pepsi were the only two soft drinks available there's nothing preventing them from deciding together to keep prices similar and both raise them. What are people going to do? They can either stop drinking the product or pay up. Bigger profits for both companies, it's a win win. If companies purely marketed on the premise of undercutting their competition companies would be broke and everything would be dirt cheap but that's definitely not the case.
In the case of amd/intel, intel's latest chips have gone up in price. While it may not be great news to the consumer it may actually help amd. Instead of being forced to sell a new cpu at $180 they may have more wiggle room to up their price to say $200 or $220 and still remain price competitive with intel. The further intel lowers their prices the lower amd is forced to lower theirs and their profit margins could be negated. Lowering prices far enough and long enough intel could easily put amd out of business by not giving them room to earn a profit they desperately need.
Original question:
Okay, so first I'd like to say I am NOT trying to start a flame war or an AMD vs Intel war. I'm only familiar with AMD, and do not know much about Intel (aside from how Hyper Threading works). Please avoid starting flame wars.
While scrolling through PCPartPicker's CPU list, time and time again I notice Intel CPUs being far more expensive than an AMD equivalent (or a better AMD). Why is this? Intel is a smart company, so they wouldn't make their components so pricey without good reason.
As an example, why is the i7-4820K $335? Why is it more expensive than an FX-6300? An FX-8350?
Again, I'm not trying to start any flame wars. I'm extremely curious about this, as it seems there's no pattern between CPUs. A $1k Intel CPU with slower speeds has a higher TDP than the faster lower TDP Intel CPU, for example (again, for example).
Am I missing something? Is there some secret Intel chip inside that turns each i7 into a 7-head-robo-hydra? Maybe a robotic Elmo that laughs and hugs you to death? Or... maybe... that robohead on all of Intel's boxes????