Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy ..

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:24:47 GMT, Arthur Entlich <artistic@telus.net>
wrote:

>In general, Epson's drivers do produce relatively neutral monotone
>(greyscale) images if Epson inks and papers are used. Using the full
>color inks is supposed to provide a smoother gradient because the number
>of dots is increased considerably. The idea is by using the colored
>inks in equal densities, the inks should appear neutral grey. It's not
>easy to accomplish, since the drivers use 2 pigment loads for the C and
>M but only one for the Y.
>
>I don't know enough about the 2200 as to if the driver can be convinced
>to just use the light and full pigment load blacks. I believe the light
>load black tends to be warm, but having the two densities should in
>principal allow for a reasonable monochrome grey print.
>
It doesn't use just the two blacks as that wouldn't give a sufficient
gradation. However, I've had no problems, on a colour managed system,
getting neutral prints suing both Epson inks and Permajet inks.

The *only* way to have more control than that is to use something like
either the Permajet Monochrome Pro ink set or the Lyson Small Gamut
inks which are specifically for B&BW.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

<jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112166420.125774.236310@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Gary wrote:
>
> >It could also be a paper type issue.
>
> I was using the right paper type. I was on the phone with Epson for
> over an hour, and we tried Epson glossy, semi-gloss, and Kirkland
> (Ilford) semi-gloss papers, all with the right paper type settings, and
> I had obviously color-tinted B/W prints from each of these attempts.

Out of interest what were the lighting conditions?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Hecate" <hecate@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:b0bm41pvinbapbvvhbgjjf2fg7jevlu3mj@4ax.com...
> I get them all the time. It completely depends upon the colour
> management system you use

You are correct, however I get quite neutral B/W prints on my Epson 2100
using no special colour management, no special papers or settings (eg out of
the box) in daylight. However under artificial lighting they do show
different colour casts depending on the light source. I suspect this is what
the OP is seeing.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Hecate" <hecate@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:l18p411vi8cc3o1t3l51rlltrototptrih@4ax.com...
> It doesn't use just the two blacks as that wouldn't give a sufficient
> gradation.

I think we all understand that and sometimes we can accept the loss of
quality.

The question we're really trying to understand though is:

Does the "Colour = Black" mode of the 2200/2100....

a) restrict the printer to just using black (or black and light black)?

or

b) convert the image (greyscale or colour) to greyscale and print it using
all the carts colour carts?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 17:49:55 GMT, "CWatters"
<colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote:

>
>"Hecate" <hecate@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:b0bm41pvinbapbvvhbgjjf2fg7jevlu3mj@4ax.com...
>> I get them all the time. It completely depends upon the colour
>> management system you use
>
>You are correct, however I get quite neutral B/W prints on my Epson 2100
>using no special colour management, no special papers or settings (eg out of
>the box) in daylight. However under artificial lighting they do show
>different colour casts depending on the light source. I suspect this is what
>the OP is seeing.
>
Yes, the lighting is important. However, I've found that colour casts,
whether B&W or colour are usually down to faulty management. I'm not
saying you're not right in this case, you may well be.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 18:05:50 GMT, "CWatters"
<colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote:

>
>"Hecate" <hecate@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:l18p411vi8cc3o1t3l51rlltrototptrih@4ax.com...
>> It doesn't use just the two blacks as that wouldn't give a sufficient
>> gradation.
>
>I think we all understand that and sometimes we can accept the loss of
>quality.
>
>The question we're really trying to understand though is:
>
>Does the "Colour = Black" mode of the 2200/2100....
>
>a) restrict the printer to just using black (or black and light black)?
>
>or
>
>b) convert the image (greyscale or colour) to greyscale and print it using
>all the carts colour carts?
>
Different question to the one asked by the OP who stated that his
images didn't turn out well when he only used black. Which, of course,
is due to the fact that only using black *doesn't* give you the ray
gradations when using the full gamut of inks.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Hecate" <hecate@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:71jr41duvhd83q6u1m63c7appb38osipa9@4ax.com...

> Different question to the one asked by the OP who stated that his
> images didn't turn out well when he only used black. Which, of course,
> is due to the fact that only using black *doesn't* give you the ray
> gradations when using the full gamut of inks.

No he was complaining of two things in that mode. Reduced quality for the
reasons you give AND STILL a colour tint.

He said...

>> I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
>> and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
>> selected the grayscale printer property.

I've now checked the user guide and it says...

"The Color setting allows you to print in color or black-and-white. Click
Color to print in color, or Black to print in black-and-white or grayscale".

So it doesn't actually say that BLACK mode ONLY uses the black cart. I
suspect that Black Mode means "convert everything to greyscale and print it
using all the carts". Perhaps there isn't a Black _only_ mode on the
2200/2100?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 19:10:35 GMT, "CWatters"
<colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote:

>
>"Hecate" <hecate@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:71jr41duvhd83q6u1m63c7appb38osipa9@4ax.com...
>
>> Different question to the one asked by the OP who stated that his
>> images didn't turn out well when he only used black. Which, of course,
>> is due to the fact that only using black *doesn't* give you the ray
>> gradations when using the full gamut of inks.
>
>No he was complaining of two things in that mode. Reduced quality for the
>reasons you give AND STILL a colour tint.
>
>He said...
>
>>> I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
>>> and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
>>> selected the grayscale printer property.
>
>I've now checked the user guide and it says...
>
>"The Color setting allows you to print in color or black-and-white. Click
>Color to print in color, or Black to print in black-and-white or grayscale".
>
>So it doesn't actually say that BLACK mode ONLY uses the black cart. I
>suspect that Black Mode means "convert everything to greyscale and print it
>using all the carts". Perhaps there isn't a Black _only_ mode on the
>2200/2100?
>
Quite possibly. I've never investigated it that deeply. I just set up
my system as I would normally (colour managed) and it works.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Hecate wrote:

>Different question to the one asked by the OP who stated that his

her

>images didn't turn out well when he only used black.

I never said anything of the sort, I said the exact opposite, it was
only when I said "use black ink only" that I finally got acceptable
prints.

>Which, of course,
>is due to the fact that only using black *doesn't* give you the ray
>gradations when using the full gamut of inks.

The problem is that I can't get the printer to JUST USE BLACK without
it snarling that it supposedly doens't give good results. I set the
color management to monochrome/gray, but it STILL USED COLORED INKS and
still produced ugly color casts on the images.

You say it's impossible to produce good b/w prints without using color.
I disagree, it worked fine for hundreds of years in the darkroom, and
it worked fine with computer printers before we had color printers and
all they had was black ink to work with.

My printer has both black and light black inks. I was using Epson
inks, and tried both Epson and Costco (Ilford) papers (at the
suggestion of the Epson technician), tried both glossy and semi-gloss
papers, etc. and was unable to get ANY settings to produce crisp b/w
prints EXCEPT by checking "use black ink only" and getting that warning
that the prints wouldn't come out OK. What irks me is that only when I
ignored that warning did I get prints that were BLACK and WHITE instead
of BROWN MUD and PINK MUD and BLUE MUD.

I'm going down to my father's this week, I'll take along my scanner and
scan some of the images from his album to show you what I mean.

jc

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

The color cast was obvious in incadescent, florescent and natural
lighting situations. I was printing at night, with incadescent
lighting in the room, the photos were displayed in a room with both
lighting conditions, and I also test viewed them with natural light
from a window.

jc

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Hi jc

You're wrestling a tarbaby with anguished
thoughts of Epson-coulda-shoulda.

Since you've got a 2200, and you want
b/w prints, and the Epson driver doesn't
let you do that well just using the b/w inks,
you're stuck with the multi-color technique
they've implemented.

But all is not lost: folks are getting neutral/controllable
B/W prints from the 2200 using the Harrington
quadtone profiles.

Here's a link:

http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

On that page, you'll find a link for the 2200
profile using the UltraChrome inks:

http://harrington.com/QTR/2200-UC.sit

These profiles are try-before-u-buy $50 shareware.

Assuming your time is worth something,
seems this is the way you should go.

Happy neutrality...

-- stan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

<jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112633696.723784.280200@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> The color cast was obvious in incadescent, florescent and natural
> lighting situations. I was printing at night, with incadescent
> lighting in the room, the photos were displayed in a room with both
> lighting conditions, and I also test viewed them with natural light
> from a window.


Did you get my email? If you like send me a B/W image I'll try and print it
on my 2100 and send it back by snail mail. I'd be interested to know how it
compares. Perhaps I have the same problem but my eyes are out of spec or I'm
not fussy enough I don't think so though.

colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be
(remove BOX)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 4 Apr 2005 10:03:11 -0700, "jcdill@gmail.com" <jcdill@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hecate wrote:
>
>>Different question to the one asked by the OP who stated that his
>
>her

My apologies. I've got mistaken for a "he" far too often as well.

>>images didn't turn out well when he only used black.
>
>I never said anything of the sort, I said the exact opposite, it was
>only when I said "use black ink only" that I finally got acceptable
>prints.
>
>>Which, of course,
>>is due to the fact that only using black *doesn't* give you the ray
>>gradations when using the full gamut of inks.
>
>The problem is that I can't get the printer to JUST USE BLACK without
>it snarling that it supposedly doens't give good results. I set the
>color management to monochrome/gray, but it STILL USED COLORED INKS and
>still produced ugly color casts on the images.

And that's why you need colour management.

>You say it's impossible to produce good b/w prints without using color.
> I disagree, it worked fine for hundreds of years in the darkroom, and
>it worked fine with computer printers before we had color printers and
>all they had was black ink to work with.

No, I said it's impossible to get good B&W prints suing this printer
and the colour ink set without using colour. You obviously do not
understand the difference between darkroom printing and inkjet
printing. They are not the same and you cannot compare them.

>My printer has both black and light black inks. I was using Epson
>inks, and tried both Epson and Costco (Ilford) papers (at the
>suggestion of the Epson technician), tried both glossy and semi-gloss
>papers, etc. and was unable to get ANY settings to produce crisp b/w
>prints EXCEPT by checking "use black ink only" and getting that warning
>that the prints wouldn't come out OK. What irks me is that only when I
>ignored that warning did I get prints that were BLACK and WHITE instead
>of BROWN MUD and PINK MUD and BLUE MUD.

That's because you don't use colour management. The printer is using
colour inks and you need management of the system. If, on the other
hand you were using Permajet Monochrome Pro or Lyson Small Gamut -
you'd still need proper colour management to get a neutral print as
opposed to a toned print which is why both companies provide new
printer profiles as well as profiles for there papers. Which is
another thing - the paper you print on will make a difference to the
resulting colour.

>I'm going down to my father's this week, I'll take along my scanner and
>scan some of the images from his album to show you what I mean.
>
OK, but it's not going to change the fact that to get neutral prints
you require colour management.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

<jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112634191.958765.19310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Hecate wrote:

> I never said anything of the sort, I said the exact opposite, it was
> only when I said "use black ink only" that I finally got acceptable
> prints.

Hi Hecate,

Now you are really confusing me...

You say you get acceptable prints when using "black ink only" but a colour
cast "when I've selected the grayscale printer property". Can you tell us
where you are setting these options? I ask because my Epson 2100 has only
two setting on the Printing Preferences. These two settings are "Color" and
"Black". I don't have a "greyscale printer property". Does the 2200 have
another option?

Colin

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"CWatters" <colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote in message
newset4e.55718$S14.4349054@phobos.telenet-ops.be...

>
> Hi Hecate,

Sorry I meant hi Jc....

>
> Now you are really confusing me...
>
> You say you get acceptable prints when using "black ink only" but a
colour
> cast "when I've selected the grayscale printer property". Can you tell us
> where you are setting these options? I ask because my Epson 2100 has only
> two setting on the Printing Preferences. These two settings are "Color"
and
> "Black". I don't have a "greyscale printer property". Does the 2200 have
> another option?
>
> Colin
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:53:51 GMT, "CWatters"
<colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote:

>
><jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1112634191.958765.19310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Hecate wrote:
>
>> I never said anything of the sort, I said the exact opposite, it was
>> only when I said "use black ink only" that I finally got acceptable
>> prints.
>
>Hi Hecate,
>
>Now you are really confusing me...
>
>You say you get acceptable prints when using "black ink only" but a colour
>cast "when I've selected the grayscale printer property". Can you tell us
>where you are setting these options? I ask because my Epson 2100 has only
>two setting on the Printing Preferences. These two settings are "Color" and
>"Black". I don't have a "greyscale printer property". Does the 2200 have
>another option?
>
No, you're getting the quotes mixed up. It was the other woman that
said that, not me.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:03:03 GMT, "CWatters"
<colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote:

>
>"CWatters" <colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote in message
>newset4e.55718$S14.4349054@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
>>
>> Hi Hecate,
>
>Sorry I meant hi Jc....
>
<g> As I just pointed out before reading this message ;-0.

Goddamn, now we're *all* confused ;-)

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Oh yeah, it's always the "other woman"

Art

Hecate wrote:


>>
>
> No, you're getting the quotes mixed up. It was the other woman that
> said that, not me.
>
> --
>
> Hecate - The Real One
> Hecate@newsguy.com
> Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
> you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:58:33 GMT, Arthur Entlich <artistic@telus.net>
wrote:

>Oh yeah, it's always the "other woman"
>
LOL!

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...