Why Multiple Hard Drives....

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ValueDriven

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MY SET UP: I currently use 2+ Physical PATA HHD "Volumes." 1 large HDD partitioned into 3 drives. Volume 1: C= WXP OS (about 20Gb). D= Apps (b/c I like to see what I've got loaded to use, w/o sorting thru all of windows files. E=Temporary & Data files (all photos, songs, movies and emails). Volume 2: F=Imaged backup of Volume1. Run every couple of days, very fast as it is an internal drive. (BTW, I don't depend upon WINDOWS XP RESTORE as it often fails to do just that. I also no longer use Norton (Symantec) GOBACK as it screwed by daughter's computer system. I back it up!) My backups alternate between Volume 2 HDD and an external HDD, which I then disconnect otherwise. HARD Bakup to DVD every 6 months or so. I have a QUESTION: For editing video I need to capture analog video, edit, and then format to MPEG for burning. I recall that there is an optimum setup of the HDDs to avoid conflict and maximumize the process speed. What is that arrangement? I use PINNACLE software (and NERO or CREATIVE as necessary). How would this differ if I upgrade to a RAID capable system? With this level of backup, is RAID 0 a reasonable option?
 

kitchenshark

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Like people have said already, multiple hard drives give me the ability to reinstall my OS whenever I want without worrying about my files. I have Raptor 36Gb for OS and apps, 120Gb hdd for all my stuff. I never keep anything important on my OS hdd.

Unlike almost everyone else here...I WOULD STRONLY DISCOURAGE YOU FROM USING **ANY** KIND OF MULTIPLE PARTITIONS ON A HDD!!!

My experience with EVERY SINGLE partition setup I had (meaning where I had more than 1 partition per drive) it has failed MISERABLY. I mean complete and total failure! The last time I tried partitioning was a 200gb hdd I bought. I cut it in half to see if NTFS & Win XP could handle partitions better than my experiences in Win95 & Win98SE (which also failed miserably with total data loss). The partition worked for only 2 weeks before one day booting up it couldn't read one partition and the other half it could only see as FAT16. YES, you heard me right, it could only read it as FAT16...

Total data loss on both partitions too. I retried re-formatting and then partitioning the drive with a commercial partitioning package. Again, about 2 weeks later and total failure of both partitions! GAAAHHHH!!!!

Anyway, I have it running as a single 200Gb partition in my server now and NO FAILURES for about 5-6mos now of 24x7 operation.

This is the experience of all my partition experiences, always complete and catastrophic failure of the file system. (side note: EXT2 file system rocks for partitions but thats Linux and a whole other story :) )

Moral of the story?

Friends Don't Let Friends Use Partitions!
 
Like people have said already, multiple hard drives give me the ability to reinstall my OS whenever I want without worrying about my files. I have Raptor 36Gb for OS and apps, 120Gb hdd for all my stuff. I never keep anything important on my OS hdd.

Unlike almost everyone else here...I WOULD STRONLY DISCOURAGE YOU FROM USING **ANY** KIND OF MULTIPLE PARTITIONS ON A HDD!!!

My experience with EVERY SINGLE partition setup I had (meaning where I had more than 1 partition per drive) it has failed MISERABLY. I mean complete and total failure! The last time I tried partitioning was a 200gb hdd I bought. I cut it in half to see if NTFS & Win XP could handle partitions better than my experiences in Win95 & Win98SE (which also failed miserably with total data loss). The partition worked for only 2 weeks before one day booting up it couldn't read one partition and the other half it could only see as FAT16. YES, you heard me right, it could only read it as FAT16...

Total data loss on both partitions too. I retried re-formatting and then partitioning the drive with a commercial partitioning package. Again, about 2 weeks later and total failure of both partitions! GAAAHHHH!!!!

Anyway, I have it running as a single 200Gb partition in my server now and NO FAILURES for about 5-6mos now of 24x7 operation.

This is the experience of all my partition experiences, always complete and catastrophic failure of the file system. (side note: EXT2 file system rocks for partitions but thats Linux and a whole other story :) )

I have my 300GB Maxtor drive into a 240 and a 60. the 240 (main partition) is for my main OS (XP Pro SP2) and the 60 is for testing Vista Beta 2. I have never had any problems in terms of data loss or abnormal issues with the partition type changing..... before I had Vista Beta 2 on the 60GB partition, I had XP x64 on it. Again.... no issues whatsoever like what you described.
 

kitchenshark

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I know, its wierd. No one has the same problems, but every single time I've tried partitions...maybe about half a dozen times in the past 5 years, all attempts have ended with a corrupt file system and completely lost data.

I don't understand it...and it happens where i'm using my system, nothing unusual, shut it down for the night and the following bootup the drive and partitions are gone and no data can be read.
 

440bx

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I disagree that you should partition your hard drive that much. One for Windows (or other OS) should indeed be done so you don't lose everything if you have to format and reinstall.

However, having more than two drives (C and D) is a waste of space and actually might be even harder to manage. What happens when one of your six drives runs out of space? You have to put stuff from that drive to some other, which results in a less organised HD. Not good.

However, if you only have C and D...(C for windows and and perhaps drivers and maybe some antivirus etc..depending on how you want it) and D for everything else. Just make the directories on drive D something like..
D:\Programs
D:\Downloads
D:\Photos
D:\Swap
D:\etc etc


That way you don't have to bother your mind with guessing the amount of space you need for each one. ;)

Of course, I'm not sure how having the swap file on a different drive would help, but if it actually does, you could make one for that. :)

I respect your opinion. However, you should know that partitioning the drive does not waste any amount of space worth talking about. Windows reserves roughly 8MB per *drive* (not partition) to manage the partitions. That's the equivalent of 5.5 floppy disks. I don't think that's worth worrying about.

The reasons for that many partitions is that not everything is backed up the same way. Nor is everything managed the same way. I'll be more explicit as to how a drive is managed when it is laid out as I proposed.

Partition C - The fallback Windows installation. This one gets backed up once after the system has been properly setup. After that it is rarely backed up. Only when a new antivirus or recovery utility is installed in it, is when this one gets backed up again.

Partition D. This one is important for two reasons. 1. It ensures that your swapfile is not scattered all over the drive which *does* slow down the system. 2. Everything in this partition is disposable, in other words, it *never* has to be backed up.

Partitions E & F (main Windows installation and applicatons/programs installed) are backed up only after new (and important) programs have been installed. I back them up more often than partition C but no more than maybe 4 or 5 times a year.

Partition G - data. This one gets backed up very often - sometimes several times a day (of course that depends on what you do with your computer). Being a programmer, any time I get some difficult code to work, an entire snapshot of the current state of the project gets backed up. I do this partial back up dozens of times a day and a full backup of the project at the end of the day (some days have 48 hours :wink: )

Partition G - Attic. Stuff that is rarely backed up, if ever. It also fulfills the purpose of segregating the slowest area of the drive. "Halving" the capacity of a drive in this way is called "shorting" the drive. This, along with the rest of the partitions is what will keep your system responsive even when all of the partitions are close to being full. The responsiveness of a system running off of a hard drive with only one or two large partitions suffers noticeably as the partitions get filled. I hear people all the time lamenting how their "used to be a screamer" system has gotten to be so slow. Shorting the drive would have helped a great deal to prevent the slowdown.

For the record, I am not trying to convince you or anyone else for that matter. Just trying to help. If you want a system that will remain responsive in the long run, you'll need a partition layout that segregates the data into what's used a lot, what's used little and, what must be accessed quickly from what can be accessed slowly. You'll most likely end up with something close to what I suggested.

You are correct in that I have to "guess" how much space to allocate to each partition but, I'm usually not too far off the mark and if I happened to be, I could simply use one of the many utilities that allows you to resize partitions. This "problem" would be taken care of in about 30 minutes in most cases.

be well
 

440bx

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I've had a few hard drive crashes. All I can say is that it did not matter how many partitions I had, EVERYTHING was gone...

If you are going to have important data, back it up. (RAID 1,5,6 doesn't really count, either, it is just a step in the right direction)

I completely agree.

Partitioning is not a substitute for backing up. A good partition layout makes it easier and faster to backup.

I'm looking forward to blu-ray drives (or HD-DVD) at reasonable prices to backup 25GB at a time on optical media. I'm hoping within a year or so.
 

biohazard420420

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I've had a few hard drive crashes. All I can say is that it did not matter how many partitions I had, EVERYTHING was gone...

In one case the drive was recognized as a completely different drive, another one died when I dropped my notebook (you could here the head dragging on the disk :oops: ) I did have a disk fail, that I was able to recover some data with knoppix, just 1 NTFS partition, but the disk ended up being RMAed.

If you are going to have important data, back it up. (RAID 1,5,6 doesn't really count, either, it is just a step in the right direction)

You are correct, but I think the other poster was refering to an OS crash not a hard drive crash. I mean if your HDD crashes eveything is gone unless you have the money to pay to get it recovered, I remember a while back seeing a news report on a company the speciailzes on recovering data from crashed or damaged drives they could do it but it would cost you. But if it is only the OS that suffers a horrific crash and it is on a seperate partition I would think in most cases the data on a different partition would be ok.
 

440bx

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You are correct, but I think the other poster was refering to an OS crash not a hard drive crash. ............ But if it is only the OS that suffers a horrific crash and it is on a seperate partition I would think in most cases the data on a different partition would be ok.

You are also correct Biohazard. As you said, I was referring to OS problems in general not to a total and sudden disk failure.
 

sbroadbent

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I've had multiple internal hard drives since windows 98 when I had 2 6GB and a 20GB hard drives. Over time I purchased larger drives, dropping the lowest capacity drives. My primary reason was so if one started to go bad, I'd have the others to backup any data to, and then replace the dying one.

Back in April '05 I got into external storage.

Recently I've been using the following partitions for my organization of my drive.

160GB
Partition 1: 30GB - Boot and Install.
Partition 2: 78GB - Dump and Download. Temporary storage for Shareaza downloads, and any miscellaneous files I needed to move temporarily.
Partition 3: 44GB - Documents. For all my long term storage.
Partition 4: 1GB - Swap. Dedicated 1-2GB location for Windows page file. Then I use TweakUI to make the swap partition disappear from MY Computer, and forget about it. Is there a performance disadvantage in having the swap file on a partition that is completely full (with the exception of the couple MB of free space it requires?

When I redo my hard drive with a fresh install of windows I may decide to change things around. Notably make the swap the C and first partition on the drive, with Install being D, DND E and Documents F. I hadn't realized that having the swap at the end of the drive would've been

In addition I've been using a 160GB (now 200GB) external USB2.0 HDD as an ISO drive, where I store all my cd/dvd ISOs. It works great at LAN parties when we need to get things installed, as we can move it around to any computer as necessary. Installing from ISO over USB2 owns cd/dvd any day. Unreal Tournament 2k4 installed in just over 3 and a half minutes (dvd ISO).

I also just recently picked up a 300GB HDD placed in an external enclosure which has just been named my Star Trek Drive. It will contain every episode of Star Trek and all 10 movies ever made :)

With all the other tv shows and documentaries that I have, I'm considering another external HDD. I've not decided on the size of this new drive but it'd probably be 160-200, maybe larger.
 

4Aces

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With 1gb of ram or even better with 2gb I've read the swap file is redundant and can be disabled completely to improve speed. Partioning is a waste of time with the price of drives now and NTFS. For just back up and storage an external case with a good HDD works well, if you're going to access it constantly like you would the C: say for videos or other such things that require faster access then put the second one inside as slave.
 

440bx

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MY SET UP: I currently use 2+ Physical PATA HHD "Volumes." 1 large HDD partitioned into 3 drives. Volume 1: C= WXP OS (about 20Gb). D= Apps (b/c I like to see what I've got loaded to use, w/o sorting thru all of windows files. E=Temporary & Data files (all photos, songs, movies and emails). Volume 2: F=Imaged backup of Volume1. Run every couple of days, very fast as it is an internal drive. (BTW, I don't depend upon WINDOWS XP RESTORE as it often fails to do just that. I also no longer use Norton (Symantec) GOBACK as it screwed by daughter's computer system. I back it up!) My backups alternate between Volume 2 HDD and an external HDD, which I then disconnect otherwise. HARD Bakup to DVD every 6 months or so. I have a QUESTION: For editing video I need to capture analog video, edit, and then format to MPEG for burning. I recall that there is an optimum setup of the HDDs to avoid conflict and maximumize the process speed. What is that arrangement? I use PINNACLE software (and NERO or CREATIVE as necessary). How would this differ if I upgrade to a RAID capable system? With this level of backup, is RAID 0 a reasonable option?

I am not aware of a "known" optimum setup for the process. I have done some casual video editing and format conversion on relatively short videos (no more than 20 minutes of video). My knowledge about the process is definitely limited. The one thing that I have noticed while editing video is that a lot of large temporary files are created by the video editing software. Though I have not used Pinnacle, it very likely does the same (I've used Nerovision and WinDVD Creator Platinum)

Based on that observation, the ideal setup would likely require 3 hard drives. One drive for the input file, one drive for the output file and one drive for Pinnacle's temporary files. If you'd like to take the guesswork out of that guess (pun intended) you can download "Process Explorer" from

http://www.sysinternals.com/ProcessesAndThreadsUtilities.html

This nice little utility will allow you to see all of the files used by any piece of software and where they reside. You can use it to see exactly what files are used and how, with that knowledge you can configure your system optimally based on facts instead of guesses. If I were you, I would do a "test run" of the process with a relatively small file (15MB) just to gather the necessary information for an optimal setup.

To make "Process Explorer" show you the files being used by an application follow these steps:

1. In the View menu ensure that "Show Lower Pane" is checked.
2. In the View menu ensure that "Lower Pane View" is set to "Handles"

after that, click on the pinnacle process and the files it is using will be displayed on the lower pane.

You didn't mention how much memory you had in your system, I can say that in the case of video editing you can never have too much memory. I had 1GB and it was obvious that another gig would have made the process faster.

Sorry I can't be more definite but Process Explorer should give you the information you need to determine the optimum setup.

About RAID 0, I may very well be too conservative to ever recommend RAID 0. I find that a properly configured system with multiple drives is quite close to the performance of an "equivalently" configured RAID 0 system. For me, the potential downsides of RAID 0 aren't worth the small performance gain. That said and to be objective, for processing large video files, a RAID 0 array with a large block size (say 128KB+) would probably result in a noticeable performance increase in that particular case.

Hope that helps
 

440bx

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Swapfile should be 1 1/2 times the size of your RAM.

That's the Windows default. There is no harm at all in having a greater ratio and advantages if you run several memory intensive programs simultaneously.
 

440bx

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My experience with EVERY SINGLE partition setup I had (meaning where I had more than 1 partition per drive) it has failed MISERABLY. I mean complete and total failure! The last time I tried partitioning was a 200gb hdd I bought. I cut it in half to see if NTFS & Win XP could handle partitions better than my experiences in Win95 & Win98SE (which also failed miserably with total data loss). The partition worked for only 2 weeks before one day booting up it couldn't read one partition and the other half it could only see as FAT16. YES, you heard me right, it could only read it as FAT16...

Total data loss on both partitions too. I retried re-formatting and then partitioning the drive with a commercial partitioning package. Again, about 2 weeks later and total failure of both partitions! GAAAHHHH!!!!

That's a sympton that there is something wrong somewhere in your system. If I had that happen, I wouldn't stop until I found out why it happened.
 

440bx

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With 1gb of ram or even better with 2gb I've read the swap file is redundant and can be disabled completely to improve speed. Partioning is a waste of time with the price of drives now and NTFS. For just back up and storage an external case with a good HDD works well, if you're going to access it constantly like you would the C: say for videos or other such things that require faster access then put the second one inside as slave.

What you've read is unfortunately incorrect and very easily established.

Consider the following scenario,

You have Maya, 3D Viz, Cinema4D, DVD It Pro, AutoCAD along with their libraries, plug-ins for a various things, etc, all running at the same time (and with data files loaded of course). Without a swapfile, 3GB of memory wouldn't be sufficient. Add Photoshop, and another couple of rendering and modeling "utilities" and by now you need about 16GB of ram just to get everything loaded. Without a swapfile giving Windows some "breathing room", the system would become slower than the movement of intercontinental plates (a crashed system doesn't move even that "fast")

Don't take my word for it, try it.

If you want to read it (from other people that *really* know what they write) read the memory management section of "Windows Internals".

Granted, if all you run is the basic Windows stuff along with a game and you have a couple of gigs then having a swapfile isn't critical but, Windows will still not work optimally even in that case.
 

440bx

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There is no disadvantage in having the pagefile in a partition that is almost full.

There is a disadvantage to having the pagefile on the last partition of your drive. You have two frequently accessed areas at opposite ends of your drive. It's costing you in terms of performance.
 

RTsa

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You misunderstood what I meant. I'll try to explain better. ;)

So, you have your 6 partitions. Every one is doing what it's supposed to. Now, let's say you're running out of space on drive F. What do you do when you need to put more stuff in that would go to that drive and you can't delete anything already there? You have to put it to drive G or where ever. That results in a mess. You have stuff in wrong places etc. Hopefully, you understood this far.

Now, when you only have two (or three, one for swap or something) drives you can still manage everything going to different directiories and you'll only run out of space when the complete HD is full. :) (excluding C: for Windows (or other OS, if you have one :p))
 

chuckshissle

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Storage, back up and raid performance.

I have two 74Gb Raptor in raid configuration for the main operating system and games. Raid basically syncronizing two or more hard drives and with it the pc can download faster and load faster as well, although it doesn't any major performance difference but 5-10 seconds faster is always better. :wink:

Lastly, I have one 250Gb hard drive for music storage and most importantly back up of extra files just in case the local drive breaks down.
 

LordChaos

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Hi, folks.

I'm new here. This thread has been very instructive, but leaves me with a few typical Windows-newbie questions. I've been reading Tom's Hardware for a year or so, and reading the forums (using the "new topics" link) for about six months.

Some history: my first computer was an Osborne 1, bought in January of 1983 (although the first micro I ever saw was an Altair being used to run the lights in a disco, circa 1977). When the Osborne quit, I replaced it with a Mac, and have used Macs since then for most of my purposes. I learned the benefits of partitioning with an offboard 40 MB drive (mega, not giga...).

The PC came along last year, as a way to play a game that wasn't available for the Mac. Having gotten tired of fan noise, I bought a silent PC. It came with two 120GB Samsung drives. The system drive I couldn't do anything with, but the second drive I partitioned using Windows into four partitions. I thought that would cover my needs.

Well, the silent PC quickly became my music server. I bought two more drives and a SATA host bus adapter, but that seemed to cause problems. In the process of doing research for that, I discovered that the motherboard had two IDE ports, so I ended up replacing the SATA installation with a Seagate 7200.8 400GB drive.

At present, this works very well. For the future, though, I'd like to build a specific music server, using Zalman's smaller silent case and a MicroATX motherboard. The Pentium-4 based computer makes a great heater, which is nice in the winter, not so good now. Tentative plan is to use a Pentium-M motherboard, a drive of around 200GB for system and programs, and a 750GB drive for music. Alternative motherboard would be an AMD Venice core.

My questions are:
1. How do you install Windows XP twice on the same PC, as 440bx has done?
2. How do you make more than the four partitions Windows allows?

Thank you for your help.
--LC
 

440bx

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LordChaos,

1. How do you install Windows XP twice on the same PC, as 440bx has done?

All you have to do is partition the drive. If you follow my suggestion, you'll have partitions C, D, E, F, G, H. These partitions can all be created at the time you install Windows for the first time on the drive (the setup allows you to create as many partitions as you want.)

Once you've installed Windows once, keep the Windows installation CD on the CD-ROM and reboot. Choose to boot from the CD to restart the Windows setup. Not far into the Windows setup you'll get to a screen where Windows will ask you in which partition you want to install it. At the time you'd select partition E. You can repeat this process as many times as you want.

2. How do you make more than the four partitions Windows allows?

Windows only allows 4 *primary* partitions but you can have as many extended partitions as you wish. Within an extended partition you can have quite a number of logical drives (These logical drives in the extented partitions are commonly called "partitions" too but, strictly speaking they should be called "logical drives" since they actually all reside in a single extented partition).

When you create partitions, you can choose to create them as primary partitions (in which case the limit of 4 applies) or you can create one primary partition and one extended partition (for simplicity's sake, the extended partition should consume everything left over after creating the primary partition).

It is *not* recommended to create all your partitions as primary. One of the reasons for this is that a number of utilities create "virtual partitions" which can only be used as primary partitions. If there are no entries left in the partition table (which is the case if you have 4 primary partitions) then virtual partitions can be created but cannot be used (therefore they become useless in that case).

One thought that just crossed my mind is that the Windows setup only creates primary partitions. Therefore it is better (more flexible) to partition the rest of the drive within Windows.

The common way is

1. Create a primary partition (during the Windows setup)
2. Continue and finish installing Windows (started on step 1)
3 From Windows, create an extended partition (using up all of the remaining space)
3.1 Create a logical drive of whatever size you want
3.2 Repeat step 3.1 until you have all the "partitions" you want.
3.3 Reboot your computer using the Windows CD, tell setup to install in any one of the partitions now on the drive.
3.4 Repeat step 3.3 for however many Windows installations you want.

You can install Windows as many times as you want. There is nothing stopping you from installing Windows in every single partition (or logical drive) you create, except maybe for how boring the process gets. I've never found a use for more than 4 Windows installations (of the same version) on a single drive.

Hope that helps.
 

LordChaos

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Thank you for the information, 440bx. You've helped me understand what's going on. Now I need to experiment a bit... I've never installed Windows.
 

Zog

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440bx.....this is my very first post to this forum and it is your words which promted me into action.

Thanks for the fantastic info.

I am in the process of planning my next build (4th build) and the hard drives is an area I have been a bit confused by....in the past I only bothered to have one HD with with two partitions (one part for the OS and Apps and the other storage). I now realise I should have made more of an effort.

What would you propose I purchase as the optimum set of drives for "Jack of All Trades" PC (a bit of gaming, a bit video storage, a fair bit mp3 storage / multimedia, a little bit of video editing) ? I have limit of around 200 - 250 USD for the drives.

The guts of the build spec so far....
> Core 2 E6600
> ASUS GF 7900GT
> ASUS P5W-DH or similar
> 2 GB PC 5400 RAM

I had in mind a 80 or 120 GB 7200rpm drive for the OS etc and 300 or 400 GB 7200rpm Storage Drive. I now plan to partition them as you propose.

Seagate vs Maxtor (or Other) and why ?
Have the feeling Raid is not worth it ?
I guess SATA II ?

Any other comments also welcome of course.
 

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