Wii U Launch Developer Complains of Lackluster CPU

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antilycus

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use a kernel that has the best thread management available (Linux). That will solve your CPU problems. I run clients windows server 2008 on a VM using Debian/Linux kernel and the performance differences is unbelievable. Thread management on WIndows kernels is a joke (xbox 360). PS3(though i cant stand it) had the right Idea by using Linux, it was their CELL that was problem (memory bottleneck and registers bottleneck due to 1 "core" managing all cores).

I don't know teh O/S or Kernel used in Wii U, but if 3 processors can't get it done, your developers are stuck in 1999. They (like most programmers) need to understand writting threads, not objects.

The CPU count is plenty high, the complete lack of understanding HOW to write threaded games, is the problem.
 

kawininjazx

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The Wii was the weakest console last generation, and we still got amazing games like Skyward Sword, which I would put up against anything from the PS3 or XBox. I am 85% PS3 / 10% Wii / 5% PC player, and though the PS3 and PC have the high def graphics, the games are usually lacking in gameplay. I have been gaming since Atari/NES, I was gameplay, the current graphics are fine to me.
 

ddpruitt

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Another developer who can't. Sounds like they suck at writing properly threaded apps.

Optimization is a lost art nowdays. People got too comfortable writing bloated apps, now that they have to deal with limited hardware they're having issues.

Although this does make me wonder if these custom Radeons that AMD's putting out are part of the Heterogeneous Computing Architecture.
 

kewlmunky

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I don't know about their other series, but I know Dynasty Warrior games have always ran like shit. Enemies disappearing when you're right by them, enemies not appearing until you're in the middle of a group of them, and slow downs when things get too heavy in action. Maybe they should consider a different developer for proper input on their hardware.
 

DRosencraft

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Quite frankly there's no point complaining about it now. It was announced a long time ago that the Wii U would have the same basic specs of the 360/PS3. Add to that the demand from the new controller with its screen, which you will eventually be able to use two of, and you'll start sucking out CPU resources.

That said, Nintendo to me represents an argument that I've long held about video games; graphics are great, but not everything. That's why I don't really care what system a game is on as long as it is a good, playable, game. I don't necessarily care if it has the best frame rate or crispest character renders as long as its fun. That is something that many devs have lost a handle on. So, if they have to sacrifice a few fewer massive hordes on screen, that's all right so long as it doesn't hurt the game or something else good is added elsewhere in the game.
 

notuptome2004

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O the Kevin Parrish get your fatcs more stright it has been confirmed several times by IBM the CPU in the Wii U is a Power 7 chip ther latest generation of chip used in watson supercomputer What the Developer means is


The Wii U does not run @ 3.2ghz but a lower clock speed the chip tho the lowest end Power 7 chip is a quad core chip running 2.4ghz with 4 threads per core
 

notuptome2004

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[citation][nom]notuptome2004[/nom]O the Kevin Parrish get your fatcs more stright it has been confirmed several times by IBM the CPU in the Wii U is a Power 7 chip ther latest generation of chip used in watson supercomputer What the Developer means is The Wii U does not run @ 3.2ghz but a lower clock speed the chip tho the lowest end Power 7 chip is a quad core chip running 2.4ghz with 4 threads per core[/citation]



to my above post

Nintendo would have to really go out of there way to even remotly finding a CPU that underperoms that of the Xbox 360 xeon chip a Power 4/5 chip and the Cell in the PS3 not to mention the huge amount of $$$ involved for therm to have a chip made from older tech to be manufacturer after being discontinued meaning the older Power PC cores before the Power era of CPUs
 

robochump

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New Wii U setup is too complicated for the average user/gamer and kids. Sadly I see this failing big time. Original Wii as well as XBox Kinect and PS3 are much easier thus will do well.
 

back_by_demand

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With the Wii U being new hardware, we're still getting used to developing for it, so there are still a lot of things we don't know yet to bring out the most of the processing power

Funny, that sounds a lot like

We don't know what we are doing, the processing power is there but we don't know how to use it

I vote the title of the article should be edited to

Wii U Launch Developer Complains of Lackluster Programmers
 

notuptome2004

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[citation][nom]robochump[/nom]New Wii U setup is too complicated for the average user/gamer and kids. Sadly I see this failing big time. Original Wii as well as XBox Kinect and PS3 are much easier thus will do well.[/citation]

 

therabiddeer

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[citation][nom]antilycus[/nom]use a kernel that has the best thread management available (Linux). That will solve your CPU problems. I run clients windows server 2008 on a VM using Debian/Linux kernel and the performance differences is unbelievable. Thread management on WIndows kernels is a joke (xbox 360). PS3(though i cant stand it) had the right Idea by using Linux, it was their CELL that was problem (memory bottleneck and registers bottleneck due to 1 "core" managing all cores).I don't know teh O/S or Kernel used in Wii U, but if 3 processors can't get it done, your developers are stuck in 1999. They (like most programmers) need to understand writting threads, not objects.The CPU count is plenty high, the complete lack of understanding HOW to write threaded games, is the problem.[/citation]
Because 10 years of programming on triple core x360 and the many core PS3 clearly havent taught them anything about threading... right. It is totally the developers fault and not actually just a weaker cpu.
 

therabiddeer

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[citation][nom]back_by_demand[/nom]Funny, that sounds a lot likeI vote the title of the article should be edited to[/citation]
No console ever peaks its performance in the first generation of games. Compare a launch title to one that is released near the end of the consoles life and you see significant changes despite the hardware being the same. It has been this way for years upon years.
 

bustapr

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that sucks. strategy games was one of the strong points I saw in the wiiu. now that a renound developer is saying that enemies on screen have to be limited, its not looking so well. hope in this console is going down fast for me. the fact that the cpu is holding back the game quality of a strong genre for the console is a very bad thing.
 
[citation][nom]antilycus[/nom]use a kernel that has the best thread management available (Linux). That will solve your CPU problems. I run clients windows server 2008 on a VM using Debian/Linux kernel and the performance differences is unbelievable. Thread management on WIndows kernels is a joke (xbox 360). PS3(though i cant stand it) had the right Idea by using Linux, it was their CELL that was problem (memory bottleneck and registers bottleneck due to 1 "core" managing all cores).I don't know teh O/S or Kernel used in Wii U, but if 3 processors can't get it done, your developers are stuck in 1999. They (like most programmers) need to understand writting threads, not objects.The CPU count is plenty high, the complete lack of understanding HOW to write threaded games, is the problem.[/citation]

Virtualization doesn't work like that.

Each virtual processor exposed to a virtual machine runs as a hardware isolated process on the host machine. Inside of that hardware isolated process the thread management is performed by the virtual machine's kernel and not the host kernel.

This is not the first time you've posted this incorrect information and this is not the first time I've had to correct you on it.
 
[citation][nom]the_unfool[/nom]pinhedd: I understand that you are 14 y/o, but you have no idea what you're talking about and should STFU. It's better to say nothing at all, than to open your mouth and look like a fool.[/citation]

Do you have something to contradict what I said or are you just trolling?
 

Alphi

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[citation][nom]antilycus[/nom]I don't know teh O/S or Kernel used in Wii U, but if 3 processors can't get it done, your developers are stuck in 1999. They (like most programmers) need to understand writting threads, not objects.The CPU count is plenty high, the complete lack of understanding HOW to write threaded games, is the problem.[/citation]

xbox 360 has 3 cores ps3 has 8 SPUs...

the same developer makes a game that runs smoother on a 5 Year old 8 core PS3 CELL CPU than a similar title on the ultra new 3 core power7 CPU.

clearly threading is not the issue here..

the original WII was heavily criticized for its underwhelming graphics.

it would appear that Nintendo has overcompensated by strapping an overpowered GPU to an underpowered CPU.

they probably went with the lower spec CPU to keep costs down (since the WII U seems to be much cheaper at launch than the original Wii)

having to feed such a powerful GPU with data and of course maintain the ability to stream it all to the controller has got to eat into CPU performance.




 

theabsinthehare

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[citation][nom]antilycus[/nom]use a kernel that has the best thread management available (Linux). That will solve your CPU problems. I run clients windows server 2008 on a VM using Debian/Linux kernel and the performance differences is unbelievable. Thread management on WIndows kernels is a joke (xbox 360). PS3(though i cant stand it) had the right Idea by using Linux, it was their CELL that was problem (memory bottleneck and registers bottleneck due to 1 "core" managing all cores).I don't know teh O/S or Kernel used in Wii U, but if 3 processors can't get it done, your developers are stuck in 1999. They (like most programmers) need to understand writting threads, not objects.The CPU count is plenty high, the complete lack of understanding HOW to write threaded games, is the problem.[/citation]

Two things:
Not all tasks can be given their own thread. It doesn't work like that.
The number of cores has nothing to do with the computational power of the CPU. I can have an octocore CPU, with each core being very weak, or a dual core with each core being very powerful. So saying because it has three cores means it's powerful enough for task X is completely conjecture.

In the article, he is talking about issues with multiple entities on screen. To make this multithreaded, you would have to give each entity its own thread. That would be fine if each entity didn't need to interact with others, but I assume that if (example) soldier1 is at coordinate [3, 6] moving to [3, 3] and soldier2 is at coordinate [3, 5] also moving to [3, 3], they need to know that they can't occupy the same space. If they're both on different threads, there's no way to ensure that they can both access eachother's data (their location) and have it be the 'correct' data for any point in time since there is no way to ensure that the threads are computed at the same speed.

There are also issues with access locks, overhead from making copies of objects (A reference passed into a thread that is accessed from other threads before or after must either be immutable or have its values coped on passing in and copied out on return. But if multiple threads copy it and change it, whose data is the right data to copy out when they are finished, since there's no way to know which one will finish first?)


Now imagine 30 soldiers, each with their own thread that determines their pathing. For soldier1 to know that he can move to coordinate [x, x] he needs to know that nobody else already is.

His pathing thread must look at all the other soldiers' values (which means they can't be locked, which in turn means their threads can't be running), lock its own values, compute his path, then unlock his values.
Each soldier's pathing thread would need to do the same. If they can't access each other while they are running, that means each thread must take its turn to completely finish before the next can, one at a time. This means you've completely lost the advantage provided by multiple threads.

Point: Sorry for the short novel's worth of text. For something to be given its own thread, its data must be completely isolated from the rest of the code, and any code depending upon it to return some data before it can continue will lock up until the thread completes (the elapsed time until completion being unknowable).
 
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