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Phaaze88

Dignified
Herald
I'm a tech, and I knew for a long time you don't want to go cheap on power supplies, but seems like picking power supplies can be complicated lol.
Economy also plays a part. Some countries get flat out shafted with pricing on even the decent low end stuff - purposely overpricing them, forcing those users to purchase the junk. I don't believe it's just import tax...
Have you seen the pricing on units like Corsair CX vs VS, or Seasonic S/M12 models?
More profits through replacing hardware more frequently...
 
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hakimul.islam

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Dec 19, 2018
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Economy also plays a part. Some countries get flat out shafted with pricing on even the decent low end stuff - purposely overpricing them, forcing those users to purchase the junk. I don't believe it's just import tax...
Have you seen the pricing on units like Corsair CX vs VS, or Seasonic S/M12 models?
More profits through replacing hardware more frequently...
exactly.
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
That list is garbage. Please do not link to it here and if you see anybody linking to it here, PM me, and I'll get rid of it or at least keep an eye on any recommendations made based on it. It's beyond laughable.


What I believe is 80+ Bronze is a 80+ Bronze, A 80+ gold means 80+ gold, 80+platinum means 80+ platinum. How come a gold/platinum model from antec be good and again another gold/platinum from same brand be bad is that a joke?
I think you are confused about what makes a good or bad PSU though, because bronze, gold, platinum, has NOTHING AT ALL to do with whether a PSU is good or bad. Nothing. It ONLY has to do with efficiency and efficiency has very little to nothing to do with the quality and performance of the platform and only has to do with how much power it wastes and how much heat it produces based on that waste.

See here:

Why 80 PLUS® is Irrelevant to You When Buying a PSU



Introduction



By this point in time, most people have at least heard of 80Plus and/or they have seen the 80Plus logo’s on their power supplies over the last few years. Perhaps many have even come to see the 80Plus logo as a key point in your decision making process when buying a power supply. But for those of you who don’t know what the 80Plus program is, the concept behind 80Plus is fairly simple and straight forward (with this being a simplification of that). Briefly, a manufacturer submits a product to ECOS (the company that started the 80Plus program with "industry partners" before being purchased by AIQ) for testing in compliance with the 80Plus guidelines; ECOS tests the unit, gives the unit an 80Plus certification of some level and manufacturers can then parade around this "certification" as a key marketing point to get users to buy their product because it is more efficient/environmentally friendly/going to save them boatloads of money. This sounds like a win/win for everybody, right? But what if it isn’t really a win for the people that should care the most (the end user paying for the power supply)? What if the 80Plus label on your power supply is all but irrelevant?


No Matter What the Advertising Tells You, You Aren’t the Customer ECOS is Targeting


Raise your hand out there if you have ever bought a product from ECOS, or a service. Anyone have their hand up (all of my product reps please put your hands down)? I didn’t think so. And herein we find one of the problems. You aren’t the customer. As an organization ECOS (now owned by AIQ) does not serve you the end user, they serve manufacturers and the manufactures are their customers. A manufacturer sends ECOS a product that the MANUFACTURER selects for testing (these products are not randomly sampled units from production runs and this is key as we will see later). They also send ECOS a $2500 check. If the product passes whatever level of certification the manufacturer thinks it should, ECOS has a happy customer who next month will send them another product that they cherry pick and, most importantly, the customer will send ECOS another check. If ECOS does not pass a power supply they now have an unhappy customer. Unhappy customers are not good for business and ECOS is in the business of making money (a quick calculation using the number of units certified by ECOS, 3,303, multiplied by the $2500 fee tells us that so far ECOS has had revenue of at least $8,257,500 from the 80Plus program). Alternatively, in the case of an organization like consumer reports, as much as many people like to bag on Consumer Reports, the good news is you are Consumer Reports customer, and not the manufacturer, so if Consumer Reports screws up they answer to you and your interests. That is what you, the consumer, should want the arrangement to be (One quick aside, ECOS is solely responsible for making users thinking that 80Plus certifications are all about them as the manufacturers/vendors play this angle even harder in order to get you to buy their product and not someone elses). But going back to the real arraignment, where the manufacturer is the customer and not you as is the case with ECOS customers, what do the customers do then in this arrangement? They cheat.



It’s Only Cheating if You Get Caught


This topic is not exactly new as a colleague, Gabriel Torres at Hardware Secrets, ran an article some time ago about manufacturers who were labeling units as 80Plus certified that were not indeed 80Plus certified (you can read it here along with some updates). Through that article was able to flip a light on that made a few roaches scatter, but it did not completely address the issue of cheating at 80Plus. After seeing numerous units fail the 80Plus certifications they were given in our testing, and other reviewers testing, it seems that the reason is ECOS does not verify that the product their label is being used on and shipped to YOU is what they "certified". In the case of deliberate failings, this takes on two aspects that we can document.

The first, and perhaps more minor that is related to what Gabe wrote about is that companies not only have units that they know won’t pass and have used the 80Plus logo but they also use the 80Plus logo when they have not submitted to ECOS for testing (which is against the contract for usage) but intend to send in for testing. This case of being ahead of the curve is perhaps not a huge concern if the product does ultimately make the level of certification claimed. However, what if it doesn’t? Users bought that product expecting a certain level of efficiency and in the end get something different. Do they get a refund? Shouldn’t ECOS be policing the usage of their certifications? I am not necessarily talking about a few days or weeks in these cases either. Recently, we had a very well known vendor with a unit that was billed on My 31st as being 80Plus Silver certified but it was not until September 15th, a full 4 ½ months later, that the unit was available on the 80Plus webpage. Sure this is the lesser of the two evils we are going to look at, but still if you don’t enforce the rules here where else are you not going to? Perhaps they won’t enforce their usage rules when vendor’s swap out the actual unit but keep the model name/number the same?

The Raidmax RX-1000AE was certified by 80Plus as an 80Plus Gold power supply based on Andyson’s K-series power supply. When we actually opened a retail unit it was not an Andyson K-series, but rather an Andyson E-Series unit. Andyson’s E-Series, by the way, is rated for 80Plus Bronze. One last facet with all of this is that the products sent to ECOS only have to pass 80Plus’s standards not FCC, UL, or ATX/EPS standards. So what can a vendor do? Well, beyond just cherry picking a unit they can send products that are not what will ship at retail (for instance alter cabling length, gauge, etc) or send a product that will not pass these other requirements (FCC, UL, ATX/EPS). All of this is kosher with ECOS because all ECOS’s testing requirements involve is efficiency, not quality or compliance. Well, ECOS is supposed to care about compliance but they can’t be oblivious to the fact that manufacturers are cheating them can they? If they are then there are other issues and we have the interesting question of which is worse? Don’t take this to mean that ECOS is the only that gets cheated and can’t (or won’t) do anything about it, Energy Star is just as bad. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10470.pdf

One of the important aspects to note about ECOS and 80Plus testing that was mentioned earlier is that vendors supply the power supplies that are being tested. ECOS does not go to a retail location and pickup power supplies; instead they rely on vendors to send them products that are supposed to be honest representations of retail products. This is an area that is ripe for abuse, and is abused, as vendors can easily cherry pick the units they send to 80Plus or even build a unit specifically to send to ECOS. Unfortunately, since ECOS does not verify anything after they test a unit, vendors have almost no chance of getting caught doing this and who can blame them when the watchman is asleep on the job?



80Plus Gold By Any Other Name Might be 80Plus Silver


Assuming a vendor does not cheat ECOS’ testing, tolerances involved with the production of power supplies make it such that your brand new shiny 80Plus Gold/Silver/Bronze (whatever) power supply may not actually be an 80Plus Gold/Silver/Bronze unit but rather one step down (or one step up but that is by far less common) if the unit was a marginal 80Plus whatever level unit to begin with. Now, in this case do most vendors care that 80Plus generates too generous of a rating for their product? Likely no. And why would they? In these cases they can simply point back to the report from ECOS to wash their hands and users are, in all reality, not going to be able to check up on this assertion anyway. So who cares that the user is not quite getting what they paid for?

This is an issue that vendors are aware of but on this aspect at least some companies do try to do right by customers. For instance, we have been working on a review where this came up and when asked the vendors indicated that they designed the product for 80Plus Bronze even though ECOS certified it for 80Plus Silver and they had no intention of changing their advertising from 80Plus Bronze to Silver. If a user gets one of this product that is 80Plus Silver they got lucky, otherwise users should expect only 80Plus Bronze. Also, previously, Corsair had this issue with their HX850 which they were billing as 80Plus Silver but ECOS certified it for 80Plus Gold. Corsair however did not change their advertising on this product as they felt they could not guarantee it would meet this higher 80Plus certification on retail units. (80plus rating of HX850 -- Silver or Gold ? - The Corsair User Forums) However, don’t take this as a solid Corsair and SilverStone can do no wrong by 80Plus so buy them as that is simply not the case. However, do take it to mean that 80Plus test reports should be taken with a generous pinch of salt and the vendors even know this.


Source: HARDOCP - Why 80Plus is Irrelevant to You When Buying a PSU - Why 80 PLUS® is Irrelevant to You When Buying a PSU


.
 
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Phaaze88

Dignified
Herald
What I believe is 80+ Bronze is a 80+ Bronze, A 80+ gold means 80+ gold, 80+platinum means 80+ platinum. How come a gold/platinum model from antec be good and again another gold/platinum from same brand be bad is that a joke?
Unfortunately, you can't go by this, because sadly, we live in a world where people LIE.
You may, or may not have already seen psus rated for X amount of watts, but the true output is far less... how do manufacturer's get away with that?
Platinum and titanium rated psus may actually perform an 80+ tier or more lower than what they're actually rated for once actually tested - that actually makes them far overpriced than what they were originally.


It's best to pick power supplies from legit reviews.

Antec also doesn't have the greatest reputation either, so they get some flak for that.
 
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Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Antec, just like many others, has both good and bad units. The High current gamer, True power classic, and all the models they sell based on Seasonic platforms, range from decent to extremely good. They also have some real turds. You simply have to know which are diamonds and which are turds, and which are diamond crusted turds. LOL.
 
Reactions: hakimul.islam

hakimul.islam

Prominent
Dec 19, 2018
36
6
545
1
That list is garbage. Please do not link to it here and if you see anybody linking to it here, PM me, and I'll get rid of it or at least keep an eye on any recommendations made based on it. It's beyond laughable.




I think you are confused about what makes a good or bad PSU though, because bronze, gold, platinum, has NOTHING AT ALL to do with whether a PSU is good or bad. Nothing. It ONLY has to do with efficiency and efficiency has very little to nothing to do with the quality and performance of the platform and only has to do with how much power it wastes and how much heat it produces based on that waste.

See here:

Why 80 PLUS® is Irrelevant to You When Buying a PSU



Introduction



By this point in time, most people have at least heard of 80Plus and/or they have seen the 80Plus logo’s on their power supplies over the last few years. Perhaps many have even come to see the 80Plus logo as a key point in your decision making process when buying a power supply. But for those of you who don’t know what the 80Plus program is, the concept behind 80Plus is fairly simple and straight forward (with this being a simplification of that). Briefly, a manufacturer submits a product to ECOS (the company that started the 80Plus program with "industry partners" before being purchased by AIQ) for testing in compliance with the 80Plus guidelines; ECOS tests the unit, gives the unit an 80Plus certification of some level and manufacturers can then parade around this "certification" as a key marketing point to get users to buy their product because it is more efficient/environmentally friendly/going to save them boatloads of money. This sounds like a win/win for everybody, right? But what if it isn’t really a win for the people that should care the most (the end user paying for the power supply)? What if the 80Plus label on your power supply is all but irrelevant?


No Matter What the Advertising Tells You, You Aren’t the Customer ECOS is Targeting


Raise your hand out there if you have ever bought a product from ECOS, or a service. Anyone have their hand up (all of my product reps please put your hands down)? I didn’t think so. And herein we find one of the problems. You aren’t the customer. As an organization ECOS (now owned by AIQ) does not serve you the end user, they serve manufacturers and the manufactures are their customers. A manufacturer sends ECOS a product that the MANUFACTURER selects for testing (these products are not randomly sampled units from production runs and this is key as we will see later). They also send ECOS a $2500 check. If the product passes whatever level of certification the manufacturer thinks it should, ECOS has a happy customer who next month will send them another product that they cherry pick and, most importantly, the customer will send ECOS another check. If ECOS does not pass a power supply they now have an unhappy customer. Unhappy customers are not good for business and ECOS is in the business of making money (a quick calculation using the number of units certified by ECOS, 3,303, multiplied by the $2500 fee tells us that so far ECOS has had revenue of at least $8,257,500 from the 80Plus program). Alternatively, in the case of an organization like consumer reports, as much as many people like to bag on Consumer Reports, the good news is you are Consumer Reports customer, and not the manufacturer, so if Consumer Reports screws up they answer to you and your interests. That is what you, the consumer, should want the arrangement to be (One quick aside, ECOS is solely responsible for making users thinking that 80Plus certifications are all about them as the manufacturers/vendors play this angle even harder in order to get you to buy their product and not someone elses). But going back to the real arraignment, where the manufacturer is the customer and not you as is the case with ECOS customers, what do the customers do then in this arrangement? They cheat.



It’s Only Cheating if You Get Caught


This topic is not exactly new as a colleague, Gabriel Torres at Hardware Secrets, ran an article some time ago about manufacturers who were labeling units as 80Plus certified that were not indeed 80Plus certified (you can read it here along with some updates). Through that article was able to flip a light on that made a few roaches scatter, but it did not completely address the issue of cheating at 80Plus. After seeing numerous units fail the 80Plus certifications they were given in our testing, and other reviewers testing, it seems that the reason is ECOS does not verify that the product their label is being used on and shipped to YOU is what they "certified". In the case of deliberate failings, this takes on two aspects that we can document.

The first, and perhaps more minor that is related to what Gabe wrote about is that companies not only have units that they know won’t pass and have used the 80Plus logo but they also use the 80Plus logo when they have not submitted to ECOS for testing (which is against the contract for usage) but intend to send in for testing. This case of being ahead of the curve is perhaps not a huge concern if the product does ultimately make the level of certification claimed. However, what if it doesn’t? Users bought that product expecting a certain level of efficiency and in the end get something different. Do they get a refund? Shouldn’t ECOS be policing the usage of their certifications? I am not necessarily talking about a few days or weeks in these cases either. Recently, we had a very well known vendor with a unit that was billed on My 31st as being 80Plus Silver certified but it was not until September 15th, a full 4 ½ months later, that the unit was available on the 80Plus webpage. Sure this is the lesser of the two evils we are going to look at, but still if you don’t enforce the rules here where else are you not going to? Perhaps they won’t enforce their usage rules when vendor’s swap out the actual unit but keep the model name/number the same?

The Raidmax RX-1000AE was certified by 80Plus as an 80Plus Gold power supply based on Andyson’s K-series power supply. When we actually opened a retail unit it was not an Andyson K-series, but rather an Andyson E-Series unit. Andyson’s E-Series, by the way, is rated for 80Plus Bronze. One last facet with all of this is that the products sent to ECOS only have to pass 80Plus’s standards not FCC, UL, or ATX/EPS standards. So what can a vendor do? Well, beyond just cherry picking a unit they can send products that are not what will ship at retail (for instance alter cabling length, gauge, etc) or send a product that will not pass these other requirements (FCC, UL, ATX/EPS). All of this is kosher with ECOS because all ECOS’s testing requirements involve is efficiency, not quality or compliance. Well, ECOS is supposed to care about compliance but they can’t be oblivious to the fact that manufacturers are cheating them can they? If they are then there are other issues and we have the interesting question of which is worse? Don’t take this to mean that ECOS is the only that gets cheated and can’t (or won’t) do anything about it, Energy Star is just as bad. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10470.pdf

One of the important aspects to note about ECOS and 80Plus testing that was mentioned earlier is that vendors supply the power supplies that are being tested. ECOS does not go to a retail location and pickup power supplies; instead they rely on vendors to send them products that are supposed to be honest representations of retail products. This is an area that is ripe for abuse, and is abused, as vendors can easily cherry pick the units they send to 80Plus or even build a unit specifically to send to ECOS. Unfortunately, since ECOS does not verify anything after they test a unit, vendors have almost no chance of getting caught doing this and who can blame them when the watchman is asleep on the job?



80Plus Gold By Any Other Name Might be 80Plus Silver


Assuming a vendor does not cheat ECOS’ testing, tolerances involved with the production of power supplies make it such that your brand new shiny 80Plus Gold/Silver/Bronze (whatever) power supply may not actually be an 80Plus Gold/Silver/Bronze unit but rather one step down (or one step up but that is by far less common) if the unit was a marginal 80Plus whatever level unit to begin with. Now, in this case do most vendors care that 80Plus generates too generous of a rating for their product? Likely no. And why would they? In these cases they can simply point back to the report from ECOS to wash their hands and users are, in all reality, not going to be able to check up on this assertion anyway. So who cares that the user is not quite getting what they paid for?

This is an issue that vendors are aware of but on this aspect at least some companies do try to do right by customers. For instance, we have been working on a review where this came up and when asked the vendors indicated that they designed the product for 80Plus Bronze even though ECOS certified it for 80Plus Silver and they had no intention of changing their advertising from 80Plus Bronze to Silver. If a user gets one of this product that is 80Plus Silver they got lucky, otherwise users should expect only 80Plus Bronze. Also, previously, Corsair had this issue with their HX850 which they were billing as 80Plus Silver but ECOS certified it for 80Plus Gold. Corsair however did not change their advertising on this product as they felt they could not guarantee it would meet this higher 80Plus certification on retail units. (80plus rating of HX850 -- Silver or Gold ? - The Corsair User Forums) However, don’t take this as a solid Corsair and SilverStone can do no wrong by 80Plus so buy them as that is simply not the case. However, do take it to mean that 80Plus test reports should be taken with a generous pinch of salt and the vendors even know this.


Source: HARDOCP - Why 80Plus is Irrelevant to You When Buying a PSU - Why 80 PLUS® is Irrelevant to You When Buying a PSU


.
thanks for the clarification and I removed the whole garbage reply of mine as well with that garbage link.
 

hakimul.islam

Prominent
Dec 19, 2018
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6
545
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Antec, just like many others, has both good and bad units. The High current gamer, True power classic, and all the models they sell based on Seasonic platforms, range from decent to extremely good. They also have some real turds. You simply have to know which are diamonds and which are turds, and which are diamond crusted turds. LOL.
The conclusion is its complicated, 😂 but still Corasir is among the good ones isn't it?

I mean its at least way more reliable than cheaper brands who are busy providing gold, platinum @ lower price.

as Corsair gold and platinum ones are hugely pricier than Brands like Antec, Gamdias, Gigabyte, CoolerMaster etc? So there must be a reason! thats what you want to tell me, Okay okay I understood.

But again price isn't everything that matters, 😂 .

then again, is there any turds from corsair like antec? 😂😂😂

Am not talking about Bequiet,Seasonic because those are unavailable in my country. Online marketing and shipping from abroad is also difficult from my country so no.(despite a rm650x costs around $135 or more in local retailer shops 😢, visiting a shop is better option here).
 
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Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Corsair, Seasonic, Super Flower, Antec, FSP, EVGA, XFX, Thermaltake, Be Quiet, Rosewill, Silverstone, Fractal design and a handful of others ALL have good power supplies. But they also ALL have craptastic power supplies too. And by "craptastic", I mean turds. Good and bad, from most all manufacturers and brands.

You can't look at ANY brand or manufacturer and say "everything they make is good" because that will not be ever be true.

Literally every brand and manufacturer have units that should be avoided, even if they also have some of the best units on the market in a different series AND even within the SAME series you could have both good and not good models.

Different capacity models within the same series could use entirely different platforms, and this happens all the time. Their 450w models in a given series might use one platform while their 550-650w models use a different one and then their 750 and up models might use something entirely different. Any one of them could be great while the others suck or visa versa. There is only ONE way to know if a power supply is worthwhile and that is by looking at a review that includes a tear down and full battery of tests. Without that, you might as well be trying to hit a moving target wearing a blindfold from 100 yards away.
 
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Darkbreeze

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