Will a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) hurt my system?

THM01

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Will simulated sinewaves from a UPS hurt my system? Do I really need to pay the extra $200+ for a pure sinewave?

My main goal is to protect from brownouts (the lights flicker here when the AC turns on...) and be able to shut down safely if the power goes out.

I'm running the EVGA G2 Supernova 750 watt PSU with pretty high usage all the time (video editing and 3D Design / rendering)

Will simulated sine waves damage any of my hardware? (i7 4790k, GTX 780, AsRock z97 extreme 4 mobo, 32gb RAM, three WD Black 7200 rpm hdds, 840 evo ssd, 5 fans)

Was considering this UPS: http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP1350AVRLCD-Intelligent-Series-Mini-Tower/dp/B000OFXKFI

I was reading a lot about sine waves / simulated ones, here's a quick reference http://www.minutemanups.com/support/pwr_un10.php

Thoughts?

Thanks!
 
Solution
Besides PSW, you should also look at frequency and voltage range as brownouts are as much a threat as spikes. For example, looking at

CyberPower PFC Sinewave Series CP1500PFCLCD UPS $194
CyberPower TAA Compliant CP1500PFCLCDTAA $270
CyberPower Smart App Sinewave PR1500LCD 1500VA $341

You might ask ....why send the extra $76 - $147 ?

The $341 can handle 47Hz - 63Hz, 75Vac – 154Vac, provides an extra $150 watts, 4 times the run time at full load, 3 hour charge time (vs 8)

maybe read the Q&A below:
My power supply is a Power Factor Correction PSU... Will this model work? Their website recommends their other model CP1350PFCLCD?

A: The CP1350AVRLCD will NOT work. It produces a simulated sine wave which your power supply will NOT handle. The CP1350PFCLCD produces a PURE sine wave which is required by your PSU. Softlan, Inc. answered on May 20, 2014
 

Awesome find, thank you; is there any drawback to this next step up UPS though? The only other ones with pure sinewaves I could find were at least $100 more; is there any reason that this one is so much cheaper? Otherwise, I'm sold.
 


Thank you for that info, that really helped me understand it more. I don't know why I wasn't able to find that while google searching. I feel like a goofball >.<
 
Besides PSW, you should also look at frequency and voltage range as brownouts are as much a threat as spikes. For example, looking at

CyberPower PFC Sinewave Series CP1500PFCLCD UPS $194
CyberPower TAA Compliant CP1500PFCLCDTAA $270
CyberPower Smart App Sinewave PR1500LCD 1500VA $341

You might ask ....why send the extra $76 - $147 ?

The $341 can handle 47Hz - 63Hz, 75Vac – 154Vac, provides an extra $150 watts, 4 times the run time at full load, 3 hour charge time (vs 8)



I struggled to find it every time the subject came up..... now I just google "Doug UPS" :)


 
Solution


^THIS

 


Ok, awesome, you guys rock.

Last question, because I'm a PSU noob.

My PSU specs say
INPUT
Input Voltage 100 - 240 VAC
AC Input 10A
Input Frequency Range 50 - 60 Hz
Efficiency 90% (115VAC) / 92% (220VAC~240VAC) or Higher Typical


So it that the frequency and voltage range you're talking about?
Thanks so much again my gosh your patience and expertise are amazing. I've been at my wits end reseraching this for hours before posting so thanks again for helping!
 


I'm talking about the frequency that comes off the utility's distribution system. See brownout

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-brownout.htm

A brownout is a temporary interruption of power service in which the electric power is reduced, rather than being cut as is the case with a blackout. Lights may flicker and dim, and the event also often wreaks havoc with electrical appliances such as computers. This could be considered the opposite of a power surge, an electrical event in which a sudden burst of power enters the system.

There are a wide ranges of causes for brownouts. Just like blackouts, overloads on the electrical system can trigger one, as the generating facility is unable to provide enough power. It can also occur when events such as storms disrupt the distribution grid, or when there are other problems in the system. They can last for a few seconds or a few hours, depending on the cause and how quickly a power utility can get full power running again.

In some cases, a brownout is actually deliberate, in which case it is known as a voltage reduction. Voltage reductions are undertaken when utilities sense that a disruption in the grid may lead to serious problems. Rather than instituting rolling blackouts, the utility may temporarily cut voltage to some customers in an attempt to stabilize the grid and to allow reserves of power to accumulate again.

During a brownout, customers should turn off appliances like computers, as the irregular power supply can damage them. I

1. A brownout can occur w/o you noticing .... typically a dimming of lights will top people off.

2. If you are not home or sleeping .... you certainly aren't going to notice.

Voltage reductions are most common but variations in frequency can also occur. Let's say the 120v drops to 105..... that means that your voltage of say 6 amps, just went to 6.9

The UPS not only provided protection from spikes and some time to shut your systems down. But is also provides power conditioning and is able to take whatever voltage is coming in and whatever frequency is coming and, *** within limits***, correct that to 120vac and 60 Hz ... and it does this 24/7

47Hz - 63Hz gives wider protection than 57-63 .... I have never seen 47 but I have seen 55 Hz

copy paste this into your web browser and put http://www. in front of it

newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=-1&IsNodeId=1&Description=cyberpower%201500%20ups%20pure&bop=And&CompareItemList=-1|42-102-134^42-102-134-TS%2C42-102-162^42-102-162-02%23%2C42-102-145^42-102-145-TS&percm=42-102-134%3A%24%24%24%24%24%24%24%3B42-102-162%3A%24%24%24%24%24%24%24%3B42-102-145%3A%24%24%24%24%24%24%24

 

Step back. All electronics have PFC. Why does a sub-$100 UPS work fine on most electrtonics? The article only discusses active PFC - not passive PFC. Most electronics have passive PFC. One rare type of active PFC has problems with less pure sine waves. Chances are all your electronics do not have this unique type of active PFC because it is not required in North America. Meanwhile, even a 'dirtiest' UPS output does not harm even 'the most' active PFC.

UPS does not provide protection from spikes and surges. Those occur in microseconds. A UPS takes maybe 10 milliseconds to respond to any anomaly. A UPS is only temporary and 'dirty' power for blackouts. Since most anomalies are already made irrelevant by what must already exist in that power supply.

Brownouts never cause electronics damage. Again, how robust is that power supply? Voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 40% intensity. Even that is sufficient voltage for your computer. Your UPS is only useful when voltage drops lower - when bulbs dim more.

Brownouts are problematic to motorized appliances. Therefore if the utility cannot provide sufficient voltage, then it cuts off all voltage. All brwonouts - intentionally created or otherwise - are pefectly good voltage for all electronics. In fact, we sometimes include circuits in electronics to intentionally create a brwonout on power up. Because that brownout actually increases electronics life expectancy.

An international design standard defines all low voltages. That expression is in all capital letters. No Damage Area. A UPS is not for protecting hardware. A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' voltage so that unsaved data can be saved.

Does your computer become so hot as to toast bread? If it draws 6 amps, then it can also toast bread. Your computer drews maybe 200 watts. It may require up to 350 watts in a short burst. So we tell computer assemblers that you need a 700 watt supply. Otherwise help lines would be crammed with confused computer assemblers being taught basic electrical concepts.

Those frequency numbers are so wide as to be irrelevant. That power supply should work just fine on the fureqency output by any UPS.

For almost all electronics, a sub $100 UPS is just fine. Since its useful purpose is temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Other anomalies that might cause damage are not averted by a UPS. And must be solved by other and completely different solutions.

 


Can you support any of these claims ? I am having trouble finding a single factual statement in the entire post.

1. "All electronics have PFC". No they don't. Note even all PC PSU's have PFC...., newegg sells 206 PC PSUs (19% of newegg's inventory) with no PFC whatsoever.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182074


2. "Most electronics have passive PFC"

The subject here is PC Power Supplies and Active PFC is by far the most prevalent type in PFC Power Supplies. Newegg sells 878 PSUs with PFC:

866 have active PFC (99%)
12 have passive PFC (1%)

So unless "most" means 1%, this is false in this context.

3. "UPS do not provide surge protection"

This is absolutely flase

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842102145

Surge Protection: Surge Energy Rating = 1030 joules

4. UPSs don't do power conditioning"

One of a UPSs critical functions is cleaning dirty power.

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/smart-app-ups/pp-series/pr1500lcd.html

Its full Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) boost/buck technology delivers a consistent and clean AC power, protecting connected equipment and preventing costly business interruptions

Full Automatic Voltage Regulation – Full AVR boost/buck technology stabilizes the AC voltage by increasing low voltages and decreasing high voltages to maintain a safe voltage level without switching to battery-mode. This conserves battery life, and delivers cleaner AC power to connected equipment.

4. "Brownouts do not cause damage"

I ran an electric utility for 6 years..... we received hundreds of insurance claims from unintentional brownouts, storms, dropped legs all resulted in insurance claims against the utility.....never had one from customer with a UPS.

Besides computers VFDs of motor control are devastated by voltage outside the accepted range. A plant I designed used VFDs outside the specification which called for the ability to handle +10 % / -15% voltage ... The vendor installed +10 / -10% arguing that it was the national standard. They failed within 6 months. Voltage range in this area (summer community) routinely went thru seasonal variations where we saw voltage variations from 260 in winter to 212 in summer ... and this is w/o any "official brownouts" (130 / 106). We also lost the laptop computer that controlled the system in the 1st summer season; it was only protected by a surge protector. A UPS was installed that delivered a constant 120v regardless of utility voltage... the laptops and UPSs have been replaced and none has had a problem since (1997)

In my house / home office, I see voltage from 123 down to about 114 in summer... the voltage out of mu UPS is a non varying 120 volts 365 days a year. During Superstorm Sandy.... we lost an NAS amd a few other items on surge protectors. But the computers on UPSs where fine. I have an exercise bike which has had its circuit board blown 4 times.... Based upon manufacturer's recommendation, I obtained an old UPS with no battery for power conditioning from an electrical contractor who suggested the same thing..... no problems since

5. Power supply sizes for THG Users

This is an enthusiast site; a 350 watt PSU is something peeps uses in an office for sinple tasks. I have a kilo-watt meter which has been used on all three. Beta pulls 785 watts from the wall w/ CPU at 40% load, Alpha pulls about 535, Chi pulls about 505. That doesn't count the monitors, speakers, printers, routers, switches


The following links are self explanatory

http://www.tripplite.com/products/ups-buying-guide

A UPS System is a device that maintains power to PCs, servers, network equipment, audio/video equipment and computer peripherals during short power outages, and allows computer systems to safely shutdown during prolonged blackouts. UPS Systems also stop damaging power surges (aka surge protection) and filter disruptive line noise (aka power conditioning), while select models correct brownouts and over-voltages.

http://www.brighthub.com/computing/windows-platform/articles/3718.aspx

Dataline protection, power correction, voltage regulation, and a half hour to finish up, save and shut down after the power goes out are all available for even the individual user at home, but getting more than you need is expensive, and getting less can be disastrous. We show you how to pick a UPS.

UPSs include surge protection,.... A standby system can be thought of as a surge protector and noise filter beside a battery.... An online or line-interactive system can be thought of as a surge protector in front of a battery.....


http://www.lascom.co.za/index.php/ups-and-surge-protection.html

The Line interactive UPS’s are designed to interact with the mains to supply a steady flow of power to the computer equipment. A high powered filter is incorporated into the machine to protect against spikes and surges. In addition an automatic voltage regulator is also added, this will help to increase the battery life of the UPS as it will be able to switch to battery power at a much lower input voltage.

http://www.overstock.com/guides/how-to-select-an-uninterruptible-power-supply

Anyone who has ever had a computer system damaged irreparably by a power surge, brownout or other electrical mishap knows the value of protecting your electronics. If you've ever lost any unsaved work from a power outage then the value of a battery backup should be obvious. If you've never had any of this happen to you, consider yourself lucky; power outages and other electrical events are nearly inevitable and your computer's power supply generally offers little to no protection. A UPS is an excellent way to help keep your computer and its data safe

http://powerelectronics.com/content/selecting-right-ups-job

Selecting the Right UPS for the Job

While uninterruptible power supply topologies may differ in price and performance, the key to successful power protection is choosing the UPS that is right for your needs.

When most people think about poor power quality, the first things that come to mind are blackouts or brownouts. In fact, these are some of the most uncommon power quality issues facing the industry today. The most typical power quality problems are undervoltage (sags), spikes and surges, overvoltage, noise, and lastly, blackouts. While outages are the most visible of power problems, equipment damage, data loss, and spurious errors are usually caused by these other more common power quality problems.

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-2209586/selecting-ups.html

I would like your help selecting a GOOD UPS,,For me back-up time is secondary, i am more concerned about line regulation and noise cancellation and more importantly quick switching from mains to battery to battery to mains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5RKBWhEUAU

An explanation of how Uninterruptible Power supplies operate with animated block diagrams. Explains the differences between Transient Voltage and Surge Suppressors (TVSS), Automatic Voltage Regulators (AVR), Standby UPS's, Line-interactive UPS's and Online (Dual Conversion) UPS's. This video also provides a summary of the features of the most common types.
 
1) All electronics have some sort of PFC. A side effect of circuits also required to meet FCC requirements. Yes, some PFC is near zero. But you were making blanket statements as if all PFC (passive and active) was same. OP need not fearf 'active PFC'. Since most electronics do not have it and most 'active PFC' circuits are not so robust as to to be confused by simulated sine waves.

3) If a UPS does surge protection, then posted numbers prove it. Meanwhile a typical UPS simply connects electronics directly to AC mains. Voltages, noise, harmonics, and other anomalies continue directly into electronics. A typical UPS connects a computer directly to AC mains most of the time - since most robust protection is already inside a computer. Transfer time are milliseconds of no power when AC mains are disconnected and battery is connected. Cleanest power for a computer is when connected directly to AC mains.

How many joules does that Cyberpower claim to protect from? 1030 joules means it uses 345 joules and never more than 690 joules to absorb a surge that can be hundreds of thousands of joules. So yes, Cyberpower does protection if we ignore numbers. Is Cyberpower's near zero protection really protection? Yes- if we ignore specification numbers. Reality: even the Cyberpower needs protection provided by something that is superior, tens of times less expensive, and actually claims to provide that protection.

An expensive UPS (that nobody needs) does some power conditioning. Cleans 'dirty' electricity that is also perfectly ideal for electronics. Best cleaning circuits are already inside electronics. Superior 'cleaning' circuits inside electronics also make "intentionally made much dirtier" electricity into electricity that is 'cleaner' than what a UPS outputs. Since electronics first convert cleanest UPS voltage into the dirtiest power. As explained previously.

4) If a brownout causes electronics damage, then electronics violate design standards that existed long before the IBM PC. If accepting damage claims due to brownouts, then you clearly had no electrical knowledge. Brownouts do not damage electronics. Brownouts can damage motorized appliances. Your proof is that naive consumers *knew* brownouts did damage? Please use logic.

View a datasheet for electronics long before PCs existed:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/208/108514_DS.pdf

Acceptable voltages are anywhere from 18 volts down to a negative 0.5 volts. All voltages down to and beyond zero cause no damage. Same standards exist for today's electronics. Where is one manufacturer datasheet for a part damaged by low voltage? If you know brownouts cause damage, then you also said what part is damaged.

What is a power off? A long slow brownout that eventually drops to zero. If brownouts do damage to electronics, then so does power off.

Brownouts can be harmful to motorized appliances. Brownouts only cause electronics damage when wild speculation exists.

5) All UPSes are same? Of course not. A UPS that does those other functions typically costs $thousands. No informed consumer needs that UPS because existing and required functions inside computers make those other anomalies irrelevant. Perfectly good for any computer is a $100 UPS to perform its primary function - temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Please stop assuming the generic term UPS means all UPSes are same.

Many claims are only from reading; not from doing. And are only subjective; without spec numbers. Especially telling is a bogus myth that electronics are damaged by a brownout. Does not happen in the real world. However, if you know otherwise, then post datasheet numbers for a part so easily damaged.

UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power for blackouts. So that unsaved data can be saved.

Best protection at a computer is already inside the computer. Anomalies that can overwhelm existing protection must be installed elsewhere. One standard solution costs $1 per protected appliance. If a computer needs that protection, then so does everything else - refrigerator, bathroom GFCIs, dishwasher, clocks, TV, recharging phone, air conditioner, and even smoke detectors. UPS does nothing for any of them. Another solution for the "actually destructive anomaly" does. With manufacturer specification numbers that says it does.