[SOLVED] Will this 650W PSU be enough?

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IDProG

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EDIT: The title was "Will this 650W PSU be enough?", to hide the objection of this thread.

Hello. I am building an ITX gaming PC for my friend. Right now, I'm picking parts for his PC.

Here are the parts:
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X + Noctua NH-L9i
Motherboard: ASRock B450 Gaming-ITX/ac
GPU: Galax RTX 2080 Ti Dual
RAM: 32GB DDR4 3200MHz
Storage: 2TB 7200rpm Seagate Barracuda Compute, 500GB Crucial P1
Case: Fractal Design Node 202

He won't be overclocking the CPU.
He will be using the PC to game at 4K.

He is planning to use Enermax Revolution SFX 650W for the PSU. Will 650W be enough?
 
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He doesn't really have a total budget. He just has some requirements for parts.

Here's what he said:
  1. "It's not really worth it to move higher than 80+ Gold. Only go for higher than 80+ Gold if it's really worth it."
  2. "I think more than $150 is a bit crazy of a budget for PSU that powers an ITX build. I believe there are quality PSUs that cost less than $150, so try to go $150 maximum if possible"
Here are prices of SFX PSUs available in our country:
  1. Corsair SF450 (newer model with 80+ Platinum) -> $130
  2. Corsair SF600 -> $165
  3. Corsair SF750 -> $185
  4. Enermax Revolution SFX 550W -> $90
  5. Enermax Revolution SFX 650W -> $105
  6. Silverstone 450W 80+ Bronze -> $75
  7. Silverstone 600W 80+ Gold -> $115
  8. Silverstone 800W 80+ Titanium -> $160
  9. Thermaltake Toughpower SFX 450W -> $90
  10. Thermaltake Toughpower SFX 600W -> $120
I'm not sure about 450W PSUs. I'm afraid it wouldn't be enough to power the system.

From these 10 choices, which one would you choose?

If the cost of your choice is more than $150, please give me your reason why it's worth it to go with that PSU.
There is a reason why they are $150 and more. PSU should never be cheaped out on, BUT, I agree with him that there should be a limit to how the costs go. However, for a SFF build, the Corsair is the way to go, even Seasonic if you can take it.

Also, he was pretty vague with his first point;
  1. "It's not really worth it to move higher than 80+ Gold. Only go for higher than 80+ Gold if it's really worth it."
What defines worth it? Like Karadjgne said, 450W is not the best option. The Enermax unit your friend selected is not great. Here are some reviews for it:
  1. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/enermax-revolution-sfx-650w-psu,5090-11.html
  2. https://smallformfactor.net/reviews/enermax-revolution-sfx-550w-review/#Conclusion (for the 550W model but they are based on the same platform).
Maybe your friend wants to risk it with this PSU, but I definitely recommend taking the SF600 from Corsair. The Silverstone model is a good compromise but it also comes with some drawbacks, namely some PCIe connector issues and issues with operating over 40C.

In the end, it is your friend's decision. If he wants to try out the Enermax and if it works for him, good for him. But I would never risk my system with those kinds of parts with a PSU because $150 is steep. Remember, this is a PSU that should last you many upgrade cycles (at least thats how I planned it for my system) and remain reliable. Do you really want to swap out your PSU again in the future?
 

COLGeek

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Hello. I am building an ITX gaming PC for my friend. Right now, I'm picking parts for his PC.

Here are the parts:
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X + Noctua NH-L9i
Motherboard: ASRock B450 Gaming-ITX/ac
GPU: Galax RTX 2080 Ti Dual
RAM: 32GB DDR4 3200MHz
Storage: 2TB 7200rpm Seagate Barracuda Compute, 500GB Crucial P1
Case: Fractal Design Node 202

He won't be overclocking the CPU.
He will be using the PC to game at 4K.

He is planning to use Enermax Revolution SFX 650W for the PSU. Will 650W be enough?
You really only need a quality 500w PSU? ArchitSahu offered a couple of good alternatives.
 

IDProG

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He doesn't really have a total budget. He just has some requirements for parts.

Here's what he said:
  1. "It's not really worth it to move higher than 80+ Gold. Only go for higher than 80+ Gold if it's really worth it."
  2. "I think more than $150 is a bit crazy of a budget for PSU that powers an ITX build. I believe there are quality PSUs that cost less than $150, so try to go $150 maximum if possible"
Here are prices of SFX PSUs available in our country:
  1. Corsair SF450 (newer model with 80+ Platinum) -> $130
  2. Corsair SF600 -> $165
  3. Corsair SF750 -> $185
  4. Enermax Revolution SFX 550W -> $90
  5. Enermax Revolution SFX 650W -> $105
  6. Silverstone 450W 80+ Bronze -> $75
  7. Silverstone 600W 80+ Gold -> $115
  8. Silverstone 800W 80+ Titanium -> $160
  9. Thermaltake Toughpower SFX 450W -> $90
  10. Thermaltake Toughpower SFX 600W -> $120
I'm not sure about 450W PSUs. I'm afraid it wouldn't be enough to power the system.

From these 10 choices, which one would you choose?

If the cost of your choice is more than $150, please give me your reason why it's worth it to go with that PSU.
 

Karadjgne

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That's a stock 250w card, expect that to be slightly higher with the 1-click OC. Add in 100w for cpu and another 50-75w for everything else and a heavy 4k gaming session could ostensibly put you up close to the 450w mark. Not somewhere you want to be with a 450w psu.

Out of that list, I'd only have 1 choice, the Corsair SF600. The others might be cheaper, but there's a reason for the pricing, and that's an extremely expensive gpu to be playing the odds with a cheap psu.
 
He doesn't really have a total budget. He just has some requirements for parts.

Here's what he said:
  1. "It's not really worth it to move higher than 80+ Gold. Only go for higher than 80+ Gold if it's really worth it."
  2. "I think more than $150 is a bit crazy of a budget for PSU that powers an ITX build. I believe there are quality PSUs that cost less than $150, so try to go $150 maximum if possible"
Here are prices of SFX PSUs available in our country:
  1. Corsair SF450 (newer model with 80+ Platinum) -> $130
  2. Corsair SF600 -> $165
  3. Corsair SF750 -> $185
  4. Enermax Revolution SFX 550W -> $90
  5. Enermax Revolution SFX 650W -> $105
  6. Silverstone 450W 80+ Bronze -> $75
  7. Silverstone 600W 80+ Gold -> $115
  8. Silverstone 800W 80+ Titanium -> $160
  9. Thermaltake Toughpower SFX 450W -> $90
  10. Thermaltake Toughpower SFX 600W -> $120
I'm not sure about 450W PSUs. I'm afraid it wouldn't be enough to power the system.

From these 10 choices, which one would you choose?

If the cost of your choice is more than $150, please give me your reason why it's worth it to go with that PSU.
There is a reason why they are $150 and more. PSU should never be cheaped out on, BUT, I agree with him that there should be a limit to how the costs go. However, for a SFF build, the Corsair is the way to go, even Seasonic if you can take it.

Also, he was pretty vague with his first point;
  1. "It's not really worth it to move higher than 80+ Gold. Only go for higher than 80+ Gold if it's really worth it."
What defines worth it? Like Karadjgne said, 450W is not the best option. The Enermax unit your friend selected is not great. Here are some reviews for it:
  1. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/enermax-revolution-sfx-650w-psu,5090-11.html
  2. https://smallformfactor.net/reviews/enermax-revolution-sfx-550w-review/#Conclusion (for the 550W model but they are based on the same platform).
Maybe your friend wants to risk it with this PSU, but I definitely recommend taking the SF600 from Corsair. The Silverstone model is a good compromise but it also comes with some drawbacks, namely some PCIe connector issues and issues with operating over 40C.

In the end, it is your friend's decision. If he wants to try out the Enermax and if it works for him, good for him. But I would never risk my system with those kinds of parts with a PSU because $150 is steep. Remember, this is a PSU that should last you many upgrade cycles (at least thats how I planned it for my system) and remain reliable. Do you really want to swap out your PSU again in the future?
 

DSzymborski

Champion
Moderator
What it comes down to is that, when there clearly was enough budget room to buy a freaking 2080 Ti, if a quality PSU that fits your needs is $150, then that's what you want to pay for that PSU. And if a quality PSU that fits your needs is $165, well, then that's what you want to pay for that PSU.

This is not the place to cut corners. I'd tell your friend not to be the dude that buys a Lamborghini and then finds he doesn't have the budget for the maintenance or the insurance.
 
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IDProG

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Okay, so I will respond to the comments one by one: (If I don't respond to your comment, it means I have answered it on the reply to other comments)

What defines worth it? Like Karadjgne said, 450W is not the best option. The Enermax unit your friend selected is not great. Here are some reviews for it:
  1. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/enermax-revolution-sfx-650w-psu,5090-11.html
  2. https://smallformfactor.net/reviews/enermax-revolution-sfx-550w-review/#Conclusion (for the 550W model but they are based on the same platform).
Maybe your friend wants to risk it with this PSU
Okay, first, not sure why it's "not great" based on the reviews. So, here are the cons of the Enermax based on the reviews:
1. Price is too high
So, in TH one, I couldn't find the exact price, so I reverse count the diagram and found it to be $115 to $125. First, the price is more expensive than my country's $105 compared to $125. That's huge difference. Second, they compared Enermax to the older model of SF600, which was much cheaper at $120. The newer one, however, has $140 MSRP, which, compared to $105, is more balanced comparison. It also doesn't help that the price in my country is worse at $165.
In SFF review, the 550W costs $110, and older SF600 costs $115. However, the comparison is invalid since now, the battle is at $90 vs $165, which is an entirely different story.
2. The fan is loud
OK, I guess. This one is fair, even though according to a review you linked, if inside of a case, the noise would matter less. Also, I don't think it's worth it to pay $55 to $75 more just because it performs more quietly.
3. No power switch
It's not a good thing in normal cases. However, this is Fractal Design Node 202, and you can't access the power switch without opening the case anyway, so it's not a bad thing.

Also, according to JonnyGURU, it's an excellent PSU. So, please elaborate the phrase "risk it".

What it comes down to is that, when there clearly was enough budget room to buy a freaking 2080 Ti, if a quality PSU that fits your needs is $150, then that's what you want to pay for that PSU. And if a quality PSU that fits your needs is $165, well, then that's what you want to pay for that PSU.

This is not the place to cut corners. I'd tell your friend not to be the dude that buys a Lamborghini and then finds he doesn't have the budget for the maintenance or the insurance.
You don't get it.

"When there clearly was enough budget room for 2080 Ti"
No, just because my friend is building a 2080 Ti build, does not mean he has unlimited money. He just happens to have enough budget to build a huge bang-for-the-buck 2080 Ti build without cheaping out on anything important.
He is the type of guy who doesn't like to waste money on unnecessary things.

  1. Notice that the 2080 Ti he chose was Galax Dual version, which was and is the absolute cheapest of all 2080 Ti in our country with $950.
  2. Even though he should've had enough money to buy faster SSD like 970 Pro, he chose cheaper SSD from Crucial, because the small SSD speed difference isn't worth the price increase, especially in games, where the difference is less noticable.
  3. He chose the cheaper B450 over X570 motherboard, because he doesn't need the extra features provided by X570. He also chose ASRock motherboard, which is the cheapest Mini ITX B450 motherboard.
  4. He chose 3200MHz instead of faster RAM, even though he totally could buy more, because sticks faster than 3200MHz usually have less performance-per-dollar.
  5. The only reason why he picked an aftermarket CPU cooler in the first place was because the stock Wraith Prism cooler wouldn't fit inside the case. If it fit, I'm sure he wouldn't bother buying any CPU cooler.
Also, please read this JonnyGURU review of Enermax PSU. It's a great PSU, definitely greater than what you give it credit for. It's up there with Seasonic and Corsair in terms of quality. It's not like it's a terrible PSU that can easily explode.
 
I'd give the edge to Corsair SF600 Gold here. The Corsair fan is 92mm rifle bearing vs Enermax SFX650 80mm sleeve bearing. Corsair uses all Japanese caps vs Enermax using mostly Japanese caps but some Taiwanese polymers. The Corsair advertises Gold efficiency but achieved platinum across the board in testing. Voltage regulation and ripple suppression on the Corsair is better. The Corsair has a 7 year warranty vs the Enermax 5 year.
 

Karadjgne

Titan
Ambassador
AC voltage is a sine wave. DC voltage is supposed to be a flat line. When converting AC to DC, you are taking a line that's bouncing up and down at 120/240v and trying to straighten it out at 3.3v, 5v, 5vVSB, 12v etc.

The difference between the cheaper Enermax and other units is the amount of ripple (that's the up/down) that's still there. It's like the choice between spending $600 for a set of tires that vibrate the staring wheel at 100kmh or spending $900 for a set of tires that are buttery smooth at 100kmh. Only this time it's a DC voltage powered $1000 gpu, and you want to nit-pick $40 over a psu. Might as well buy the cheapest psu then, since there's a lack of understanding between stability, performance, longetivity of the expensive parts.

Picture this, you being 40 years old. Doctor says you need a new heart. You can have this 18yr old, non smoking athlete who lived a healthy lifestyle for $100k or this 60yr old obese chainsmokers for $50k. Go ahead, go cheap, it's just your heart....
 

DSzymborski

Champion
Moderator
And it's hard to be as detailed as we could be when dealing with a mystery country, which affects the market. I haven't made a PSU recommendation because I don't like working with incomplete information. Some of the pricing differences are odd; where is a new GTX 2080 Ti $150 cheaper than in the US but all the PSUs except Enermax are more expensive?

I'm not objecting to the Enermax, just the general attitude that in a build with the most expensive mainstream consumer GPU out there, something suddenly quailing at the possibility of going $15 over the ideal budget at the PSU is a big red flag. And 3600 MHz is generally considered the sweet spot for mid-to-high end Ryzen 3000 CPUs.

There's just a lot of bizarre nickel-and-diming in a high-end build.
 

IDProG

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I'd give the edge to Corsair SF600 Gold here. The Corsair fan is 92mm rifle bearing vs Enermax SFX650 80mm sleeve bearing. Corsair uses all Japanese caps vs Enermax using mostly Japanese caps but some Taiwanese polymers. The Corsair advertises Gold efficiency but achieved platinum across the board in testing. Voltage regulation and ripple suppression on the Corsair is better. The Corsair has a 7 year warranty vs the Enermax 5 year.
I'm going to be honest with you. The 7 year warranty one is actually quite compelling. However, I still think it's not worth paying 50% more for the Platinum version.
For the Gold version, the major retailers do not sell it anymore, meaning that we can only buy it online. It's new, but warranty process of buying things online is extremely sketchy and complicated, at least in my country. Might as well just consider buying online as having 0 year warranty.

The <insert nation here> caps argument, I don't think it's valid in this level. Yes, Corsair's performance is better, but Enermax's build quality is good enough that it was given a 10 score from one of the most reliable PSU reviewer. That means Enermax's build quality and protection layers are excellent, excellent enough that it won't explode upon death, and that's what really matters in a PSU's build quality, isn't it. Anything above that is just nitpicks when the price difference is that high.

The difference between the cheaper Enermax and other units is the amount of ripple (that's the up/down) that's still there. It's like the choice between spending $600 for a set of tires that vibrate the staring wheel at 100kmh or spending $900 for a set of tires that are buttery smooth at 100kmh. Only this time it's a DC voltage powered $1000 gpu, and you want to nit-pick $40 over a psu. Might as well buy the cheapest psu then, since there's a lack of understanding between stability, performance, longetivity of the expensive parts.

Picture this, you being 40 years old. Doctor says you need a new heart. You can have this 18yr old, non smoking athlete who lived a healthy lifestyle for $100k or this 60yr old obese chainsmokers for $50k. Go ahead, go cheap, it's just your heart....
That's a false and highly misleading comparison.

You compared a power supply to a tire. First of all, a power supply does not hold hundreds of kilograms of weight. It also doesn't connect to the rough rocks of a road. Also, that's crazy expensive for a tire. My country sells a tire set of four for $200 - $400, and yes, even the cheapest of the tires are buttery smooth until 120km/h. My car's tires only start to vibrate after I reach 140km/h, and I will probably only reach that speed like 0.1% of my entire car driving career, due to how crowded my country's road is.

You compared a power supply to a heart surgery. The comparison itself is very, very wrong, because Enermax's build quality is very good. If Corsair were like an 18 year old guy's heart, the Enermax would be like a 20 with the exact same conditions as the 18.

Have you really read the reviews? Maybe you should re-read it again, because you're acting as if Enermax's build quality is as terrible as some random low quality PSU, which really bugs me.
 

IDProG

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First of all, I did a mistake on the GPU part. It's supposed to be from Palit brand, not Galax.

And it's hard to be as detailed as we could be when dealing with a mystery country, which affects the market. I haven't made a PSU recommendation because I don't like working with incomplete information. Some of the pricing differences are odd; where is a new GTX 2080 Ti $150 cheaper than in the US but all the PSUs except Enermax are more expensive?

I'm not objecting to the Enermax, just the general attitude that in a build with the most expensive mainstream consumer GPU out there, something suddenly quailing at the possibility of going $15 over the ideal budget at the PSU is a big red flag. And 3600 MHz is generally considered the sweet spot for mid-to-high end Ryzen 3000 CPUs.

There's just a lot of bizarre nickel-and-diming in a high-end build.
$150 cheaper? The MSRP is $999.

Yeah, the price tag is a $50 discount from an already great value $1000 2080 Ti.

Nope, the products here are not inherently more expensive than the US. It's just that products from the West are quite a bit more expensive here than the ones not from the West.

However, despite that, unlike the US, my country has access to some dirt cheap, high quality products. For example, 3500X for $150, Galax, Inno3D, and Colorful GPUs which are cheaper than the US brands ones.
We also have access to a 700W 80+ Titanium PSU that costs $120. No kidding. Oh, and if you think that its build quality is terrible, tough luck there, because according to JonnyGURU Review, its build quality rivaled even Corsair and Seasonic's absolute best.

The reason why he chose 3200MHz RAM was because:
  1. He found 3200MHz CL16 to be the best bang for the buck for RAM
  2. Higher speed RAM either have terrible latency (CL18 to CL19) or are crazy expensive for the performance increase it gains (G.Skill TridentZ Neo 32GB 3600MHz CL16 cost $355, compared to 3200MHz CL16 for $150).
  3. Even at 4000MHz speed, a terrible latency RAM performs worse than a higher one, according to Gamers' Nexus.
 

IDProG

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Since we're stingy with information, sarcastic, dismissive, and clearly already decided the answers to the questions before asking them, I think I'll unfollow this one! Good luck to you.
Not sure what you mean by sarcastic and dismissive, but I'm not being any of those.

But I'll admit, I'm not really building a PC for my friend. My intention of this post is to find out about any brand bias in this forums.

Here's my hypothesis:
"People in this forums will immediately choose Corsair or EVGA or Seasonic as the power supply for high end builds, and will immediately dismiss other choices, regardless of evidences of value and build quality."

And I can say, the conclusion is
"It's not false."

From the first people who responded until the last, everyone completely dismissed the Enermax PSU and went for Corsair, since that's the only one of the three brands I hypothesized that is available in my country.

Some people said that Enermax PSU was "cheap PSU". They treated the Enermax PSU as if it's some kind of random low quality PSU that would explode easily.
  1. "...that's an extremely expensive gpu to be playing the odds with a cheap psu." - Karadjgne
  2. "...But I would never risk my system with those kinds of parts with a PSU because $150 is steep..." - ArchitSahu
  3. "This is not the place to cut corners..." -DSzymborski
  4. Karadjgne treating SF600 as a healthy heart, but treating Enermax PSU as an "old obese chainsmoker" 's heart.
Knowing about the JonnyGURU review, after reading those, I just like "What are you talking about. It's a high quality PSU. It has scores comparable to Corsair and Seasonic and EVGA's lineup".

Now, I must give credit to ArchitSahu and Archaic59, though, for actually trying to justify the $60 to $75 price difference. The two year more warranty is compelling, the more silent operation is fair, but still, to me, those are not enough to consider something that has comparable build quality, comparable wattage, but around 55% - 77% percent higher price tag. The reason why we buy more expensive PSUs in the first place is so that the PSUs don't explode and damage our components. If the PSU passes the aforementioned test, whether how long it will last depends on the price of the PSU.
 

USAFRet

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Here's my hypothesis:
"People in this forums will immediately choose Corsair or EVGA or Seasonic as the power supply for high end builds, and will immediately dismiss other choices, regardless of evidences of value and build quality."

And I can say, the conclusion is
"It's not false."
If you think people here generically and automatically recommend EVGA...you are sadly wrong, my friend.
 

Karadjgne

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You compared a power supply to a tire. First of all, a power supply does not hold hundreds of kilograms of weight. It also doesn't connect to the rough rocks of a road. Also, that's crazy expensive for a tire. My country sells a tire set of four for $200 - $400, and yes, even the cheapest of the tires are buttery smooth until 120km/h. My car's tires only start to vibrate after I reach 140km/h, and I will probably only reach that speed like 0.1% of my entire car driving career, due to how crowded my country's road is.
Think outside the box. The psu is responsible for supplying power to every single component, every single logic circuit, the pc is bunk without it, goes downhill in performance if it has crap outputs. VRM temps go up with the increased workload of balancing wildly varied voltages, logic circuits can suffer with spikes, OC gets worse results in stability, there's more wear and tear on everything.

2012 Dodge Charger R/T, replaced the worn stock tires with better, keeping the stock 20" rims. $1300 for a set of 4 Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06.

Yes I read the review. All in all, the Enermax is above average in most things. Sleeve bearing fans are about as bad as it gets for a horizontal mount. So-so soldering when CWT is capable of far better, minor rails VRM's not heatsinked or attached to case, nor really covered by the fan (the 3.3v rail is what powers the logic circuitry on your mobo, the 5v rail is usb and storage amongst other things, and the somewhat iffy/spikey 12v rail powers 90% of the pc including a @ $1000 gpu.

You really going to settle for 2nd best? You'd really take the 20yr olds heart that's almost as good as the 18yr olds as long as you overlook the little valve flutter?

It's a RTX2080ti. Why are you raising argument trying to justify 2nd best is good enough? Just to save a few $? A $2000 pc and quibbling over chump change in comparison.

The energy conversion efficiency of the Revolution SFX 650W PSU takes a major hit with the unit operating inside our hotbox, suggesting that the small PSU is heavily thermally stressed. The cooling fan once again started when the load was above 150 Watts and the internal temperatures got uncomfortably high, yet not to the point that the thermal protection of the PSU would kick in. The average efficiency reduction is 2.3%, with a drop of 2.6% at 100% load, suggesting very high thermal stress.
Although it manages to do so, the noise coming from the fan when the load is above 400 Watts is overwhelming, with a high-pitch whine that would probably be audible even through headphones. This clearly is not a typical everyday use scenario and is unlikely that the PSU will survive such abuse for prolonged periods of time
Filtering is good on the 12V line, with our instruments recording a maximum voltage ripple of only 30 mV under maximum load. This figure is exceptional and comparable to that of the best ATX PSUs, yet the designer seems to have neglected the 3.3V and 5V lines, the filtering of which is much worse. The 3.3V and 5V lines recorded a maximum of 30 mV and 38 mV respectively with the PSU nominally loaded. With the PSUs voltage lines cross-loaded, the 5V line almost reached the design limit of 50 mV.
Our only concern lies with the small sleeve bearing engine fan. The designer probably assumed that the fan will not even be operational while the system is idling, allowing it to last for many years. However, we find it unlikely to last for many years if the PSU is forced to operate heavily loaded for many hours daily.

2nd best....

For a lesser pc like a 2060 or even upto a 2070 Super, probably not a big deal, would be good enough. For a 2080ti pushing a 4k monitor, it's going to be up around the 400w area regularly.

All I can say is good luck, but don't call back in a few years when it smokes and the 'sparse' circuitry OW mentions comes into play in a bad way.

Oh, and 140kph is 87mph, which gets exceeded daily by just about everyone in the HOV lane during rush-hour traffic headed south out of Nashville. Even in my work van I do @ 90mph just to maintain distancing and will have to move over to allow cars to pass at times. Sorry to hear about your tires.
 
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