Willbender+Gilded Light vs. Brain Freeze

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, All!
Suppose that during a busy turn my opponent plays Brain Freeze targeting
myself. While the Storm ability of Brain Freeze is on the stack, I play
Gilded Light and turn my Willbended face up, changing the target of the
original Brain Freeze to be my opponent. Does the Storm ability of
Brain Freeze copy the original with this new target? If yes, it looks
like my opponent has no way but a Gilded Light of his own to prevent
all those Brain Freezes (original AND copies) from hitting his library.

Regards,
Arkady.

Gilded Light
{1}{W}
Instant
You can't be the target of spells or abilities this turn.
Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card from your hand: Draw a card.)

Brain Freeze
{1}{U}
Instant
Target player puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or
her graveyard.
Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it
this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

Willbender
{1}{U}
Creature -- Wizard
1/2
Morph {1}{U} (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for {3}.
Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)
When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or
ability with a single target.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Arkady Zilberberg <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Suppose that during a busy turn my opponent plays Brain Freeze targeting
> myself. While the Storm ability of Brain Freeze is on the stack, I play
> Gilded Light and turn my Willbended face up, changing the target of the
> original Brain Freeze to be my opponent. Does the Storm ability of
> Brain Freeze copy the original with this new target? If yes, it looks
> like my opponent has no way but a Gilded Light of his own to prevent
> all those Brain Freezes (original AND copies) from hitting his library.

Yes.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Arkady Zilberberg wrote:

> Hello, All!
> Suppose that during a busy turn my opponent plays Brain Freeze targeting
> myself. While the Storm ability of Brain Freeze is on the stack, I play
> Gilded Light and turn my Willbended face up, changing the target of the
> original Brain Freeze to be my opponent. Does the Storm ability of
> Brain Freeze copy the original with this new target?

No, because Storm *never* copies the target. Storm copies get to
choose new targets, just like it says in the reminder text. He
gets hit by the original Freeze, but it's his choice where the
copies go.

> If yes, it looks
> like my opponent has no way but a Gilded Light of his own to prevent
> all those Brain Freezes (original AND copies) from hitting his library.
>
> Regards,
> Arkady.
>
> Gilded Light
> {1}{W}
> Instant
> You can't be the target of spells or abilities this turn.
> Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card from your hand: Draw a card.)
>
> Brain Freeze
> {1}{U}
> Instant
> Target player puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or
> her graveyard.
> Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it
> this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
>
> Willbender
> {1}{U}
> Creature -- Wizard
> 1/2
> Morph {1}{U} (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for {3}.
> Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)
> When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or
> ability with a single target.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern wrote:

> Arkady Zilberberg wrote:
>
>> Hello, All!
>> Suppose that during a busy turn my opponent plays Brain Freeze targeting
>> myself. While the Storm ability of Brain Freeze is on the stack, I play
>> Gilded Light and turn my Willbended face up, changing the target of the
>> original Brain Freeze to be my opponent. Does the Storm ability of
>> Brain Freeze copy the original with this new target?
>
> No, because Storm *never* copies the target. Storm copies get to
> choose new targets, just like it says in the reminder text. He
> gets hit by the original Freeze, but it's his choice where the
> copies go.

Fie on me for not reading the cards. Since Gilded Light makes
you an illegal target, his storm copies *have* to target him,
because there's no other choice. In fact, now that I've
had a chance to think about it, it *does* copy the target;
you just get the option to change it. So if you didn't have
the Willbender, he could choose not to change the targets
(and watch them all be countered on resolution). But
the Willbendered original Freeze makes them all target him
to begin with, and Gilded Light prevents him from changing
it. Yeah, this works.
>
>> If yes, it looks
>> like my opponent has no way but a Gilded Light of his own to prevent
>> all those Brain Freezes (original AND copies) from hitting his library.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Arkady.
>>
>> Gilded Light
>> {1}{W}
>> Instant
>> You can't be the target of spells or abilities this turn.
>> Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card from your hand: Draw a card.)
>>
>> Brain Freeze
>> {1}{U}
>> Instant
>> Target player puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or
>> her graveyard.
>> Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it
>> this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
>>
>> Willbender
>> {1}{U}
>> Creature -- Wizard
>> 1/2
>> Morph {1}{U} (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for {3}.
>> Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)
>> When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or
>> ability with a single target.
>

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Arkady Zilberberg, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Hello, All!
> Suppose that during a busy turn my opponent plays Brain Freeze targeting
> myself. While the Storm ability of Brain Freeze is on the stack, I play
> Gilded Light and turn my Willbended face up, changing the target of the
> original Brain Freeze to be my opponent. Does the Storm ability of
> Brain Freeze copy the original with this new target? If yes, it looks
> like my opponent has no way but a Gilded Light of his own to prevent
> all those Brain Freezes (original AND copies) from hitting his library.
>
> Regards,
> Arkady.
>
> Gilded Light
> {1}{W}
> Instant
> You can't be the target of spells or abilities this turn.
> Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card from your hand: Draw a card.)
>
> Brain Freeze
> {1}{U}
> Instant
> Target player puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or
> her graveyard.
> Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it
> this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
>
> Willbender
> {1}{U}
> Creature -- Wizard
> 1/2
> Morph {1}{U} (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for {3}.
> Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)
> When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or
> ability with a single target.

I don't see how Willbender would affect more than one copy of Brain
Freeze. Each Brain Freeze, including the original but by no means
limited to it, has its target chosen independantly of all the others,
and Willbender's ability only targets one of them. Your opponent would
mill himself for 3 once and the other Brain Freezes would all fizzle (to
use a technically obsolete term).

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:

> I don't see how Willbender would affect more than one copy of Brain
> Freeze.

Directly, no.

> Each Brain Freeze, including the original but by no means
> limited to it, has its target chosen independantly of all the others,
> and Willbender's ability only targets one of them. Your opponent would
> mill himself for 3 once and the other Brain Freezes would all fizzle (to
> use a technically obsolete term).

Each copy of the original Brain Freeze will start out with the same
target as the original. By the time the Storm ability resolves, this
will be the caster of the Brain Freeze. He would then have the option
of changing each one's target to another valid target, assuming he can
find one.

503.10. To copy a spell means to put a copy of the spell onto the stack;
a copy of a spell isn't "played." In addition to copying the
characteristics of the spell, all decisions made when the spell was
played are copied. These include mode, targets, the value of X, and
optional additional costs such as buyback. (See rule 409, "Playing
Spells and Activated Abilities.") Choices that are normally made on
resolution are not copied. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, but it
has no spell card associated with it. It works just like a normal spell:
it can be countered or it can resolve, and it uses the same timing rules
as normal spells.
Example: A player plays Fork, targeting an Emerald Charm. Fork reads,
"Put a copy of target instant or sorcery spell onto the stack, except
that it copies Fork's color and you may choose new targets for the
copy." Emerald Charm reads, "Choose one -- Untap target permanent; or
destroy target global enchantment; or target creature loses flying until
end of turn." When the Fork resolves, it puts a copy of the Emerald
Charm on the stack. The copy has the same mode that was chosen for the
original Emerald Charm. It does not necessarily have the same target,
but only because Fork allows choosing of new targets.

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:27:33 -0400, Arkady Zilberberg <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Suppose that during a busy turn my opponent plays Brain Freeze targeting
>myself. While the Storm ability of Brain Freeze is on the stack, I play
>Gilded Light and turn my Willbended face up, changing the target of the
>original Brain Freeze to be my opponent. Does the Storm ability of
>Brain Freeze copy the original with this new target?

Mmmm. Good question. I have to say it copies the original target, because
Willbender's effect is NOT a copy effect, so doesn't get copied by copy
effects (much like -lace effects, Hack or Sleight, or other alterations
to a spell already on the stack won't be copied). 503.10 agrees with this:
decisions made as the Brain Freeze was -played- are copied, which doesn't
include later changes made by Deflection, Willbender, etc.

> If yes, it looks
>like my opponent has no way but a Gilded Light of his own to prevent
>all those Brain Freezes (original AND copies) from hitting his library.

No; he can let them resolve with the target they start off with - you - and
watch as each of them splatters against your Gilded Light effect and gets
countered.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>> Each Brain Freeze, including the original but by no means
>> limited to it, has its target chosen independantly of all the others,
>> and Willbender's ability only targets one of them. Your opponent would
>> mill himself for 3 once and the other Brain Freezes would all fizzle (to
>> use a technically obsolete term).
>
>Each copy of the original Brain Freeze will start out with the same
>target as the original.

"as the original -started off with-.

> By the time the Storm ability resolves, this
>will be the caster of the Brain Freeze.

No ... because Willbender can't change what the original target was, and the
editing effect of Willbender on the spell on the stack isn't copiable.

>503.10. To copy a spell means to put a copy of the spell onto the stack;
>a copy of a spell isn't "played." In addition to copying the
>characteristics of the spell, all decisions made when the spell was
>played are copied.

Note carefully the 'when the spell was played'.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In <MPG.1b9fdb47eb3c725b989ee2@news.easynews.com> Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> writes:

> I don't see how Willbender would affect more than one copy of Brain
> Freeze. Each Brain Freeze, including the original but by no means
> limited to it, has its target chosen independantly of all the others,
> and Willbender's ability only targets one of them. Your opponent would
> mill himself for 3 once and the other Brain Freezes would all fizzle (to
> use a technically obsolete term).

He said that he used the Willbender's ability whilst the Storm
ability was still on the stack. By the time the Storm ability
resolves, the target of the original Brain Freeze will have changed,
and thus all the 'Freeze copies will acquire that target.

--
John Gordon "Between BST melee, their spells, their warders' melee,
gordon@panix.com and their warders' procs, they put out enough damage
to make monks cry." -- Dark Tyger

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> wrote:
>Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> writes:
>> I don't see how Willbender would affect more than one copy of Brain
>> Freeze. Each Brain Freeze, including the original but by no means
>> limited to it, has its target chosen independantly of all the others,
>> and Willbender's ability only targets one of them. Your opponent would
>> mill himself for 3 once and the other Brain Freezes would all fizzle (to
>> use a technically obsolete term).
>
>He said that he used the Willbender's ability whilst the Storm
>ability was still on the stack. By the time the Storm ability
>resolves, the target of the original Brain Freeze will have changed,

Yes...

>and thus all the 'Freeze copies will acquire that target.

No; why would they? Willbender does NOT say "Counter target spell, then put
a copy of it onto the stack with a different target". Copy effects can't
'see' Willbender's effect, since it gets applied in a higher layer.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Arkady Zilberberg sez:

<<
>Suppose that during a busy turn my opponent plays Brain Freeze targeting
>myself. While the Storm ability of Brain Freeze is on the stack, I play
>Gilded Light and turn my Willbended face up, changing the target of the
>original Brain Freeze to be my opponent. Does the Storm ability of
>Brain Freeze copy the original with this new target?
>
>>

Look closer at that Brain Freeze you copied. It says for Storm, "You may
choose new targets for those copies." Meaning what happens to the original's
targets has no bearing whatsoever on what happens to the copies' targets.


----
If [Michael Moore] makes a mistake in [F 9/11], it's not that he's careless
with the facts ... It's that he suggests Bush is the cause of our problems,
when, in fact, Bush is just the result.
--The Libertarian Lessons of Fahrenheit 9/11

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern wrote:

> Chris Mattern wrote:
>
>> Arkady Zilberberg wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, All!
>>> Suppose that during a busy turn my opponent plays Brain Freeze targeting
>>> myself. While the Storm ability of Brain Freeze is on the stack, I play
>>> Gilded Light and turn my Willbended face up, changing the target of the
>>> original Brain Freeze to be my opponent. Does the Storm ability of
>>> Brain Freeze copy the original with this new target?
>>
>> No, because Storm *never* copies the target. Storm copies get to
>> choose new targets, just like it says in the reminder text. He
>> gets hit by the original Freeze, but it's his choice where the
>> copies go.
>
> Fie on me for not reading the cards. Since Gilded Light makes
> you an illegal target, his storm copies *have* to target him,
> because there's no other choice. In fact, now that I've
> had a chance to think about it, it *does* copy the target;
> you just get the option to change it. So if you didn't have
> the Willbender, he could choose not to change the targets
> (and watch them all be countered on resolution). But
> the Willbendered original Freeze makes them all target him
> to begin with, and Gilded Light prevents him from changing
> it. Yeah, this works.

Argh, wrong twice. Aren't copy effects fun, boys and girls?

>>
>>> If yes, it looks
>>> like my opponent has no way but a Gilded Light of his own to prevent
>>> all those Brain Freezes (original AND copies) from hitting his library.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Arkady.
>>>
>>> Gilded Light
>>> {1}{W}
>>> Instant
>>> You can't be the target of spells or abilities this turn.
>>> Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card from your hand: Draw a card.)
>>>
>>> Brain Freeze
>>> {1}{U}
>>> Instant
>>> Target player puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or
>>> her graveyard.
>>> Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it
>>> this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
>>>
>>> Willbender
>>> {1}{U}
>>> Creature -- Wizard
>>> 1/2
>>> Morph {1}{U} (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for {3}.
>>> Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)
>>> When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or
>>> ability with a single target.
>>
>

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Andy Jakcsy wrote:

> Arkady Zilberberg sez:
>
> <<
>>Suppose that during a busy turn my opponent plays Brain Freeze targeting
>>myself. While the Storm ability of Brain Freeze is on the stack, I play
>>Gilded Light and turn my Willbended face up, changing the target of the
>>original Brain Freeze to be my opponent. Does the Storm ability of
>>Brain Freeze copy the original with this new target?
>>
>>>
>
> Look closer at that Brain Freeze you copied. It says for Storm, "You may
> choose new targets for those copies." Meaning what happens to the
> original's targets has no bearing whatsoever on what happens to the
> copies' targets.

Wrong, as I belated realized. Because, by playing Gilded Light after
the original Freeze, he's made himself an illegal target, and thus
the target those copies have as they are created suddenly becomes
very important--because unless they are created with him as a target,
they must target his opponent, *because his opponent can't change
the target to be him.*
>
>


--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In <slrncjcjrs.jk0.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:

> John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >and thus all the 'Freeze copies will acquire that target.

> No; why would they? Willbender does NOT say "Counter target spell, then put
> a copy of it onto the stack with a different target". Copy effects can't
> 'see' Willbender's effect, since it gets applied in a higher layer.

Doh! I have much to learn.

--
John Gordon "Between BST melee, their spells, their warders' melee,
gordon@panix.com and their warders' procs, they put out enough damage
to make monks cry." -- Dark Tyger