Discussion Win 11: Whats the rush?

[Colif]

What is different in Win 11 that isn't in Win 10?

Not talking about looks, I know it looks different but that is actually different

Every articles on differences just talks about what it looks like. I want to know what actually changed under the hood.

I need something more than just a new UI and rounded (expletive) corners to get me to care about this version of Windows.
I don't see why people are going nuts trying to make sure there PC will work with it.

It doesn't seem that different to 10. It feels like a finished win 10, they completed a bunch of things they started in 10. So it takes 6 years to get a completed OS? Nice work guys, so Win 11 be finished by 2026? Maybe we should get it then?

Only other change I seen mentioned is enhanced Gaming performance.

Anyone dug into the behind scenes changes?

 

[Deleted member 14196]

With so many complaints on win 10 I figured they would all bail. But looks like everyone is clamoring for more windows

it’s new and shiny maybe?

 

[Colif]

Every version of windows has had bugs, its only when a new one comes along that people start to claim the previous one was fine and doesn't need replacement... and while It might appear that is what I am doing here, I am not saying I won't take 11, just curious what is different

Its a finished version of win 10, so I guess they had the last 2 years to polish it. I still see some old screens in the new settings menus so clearly 2 years isn't enough to finish it. Control panel still existed in dev build, lets see if it survives to launch.

 

[alceryes]

Directstorage seems to be causing some stir on the gaming front, as it's a Windows 11 exclusive.

However, once you dig into what directstorage itself will do for games, there's little cause for celebration and no real reason (yet) for gamers to jump on the shiny new Windows 11 boat. Although one of the titles is now wrong, these articles give some good info -

Microsoft DirectStorage API For Windows 10 Will Support PCIe 3.0 NVMe SSD And DX12 GPUs

The Microsoft DirectStorage API currently seen on the Xbox Series will support PCIe 3.0 NVMe SSDs and DX12 compatible GPUs on Windows 10.

wccftech.com

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/m...i-windows-2021-gaming-nvme-ssds-nivida-rtx-io

Directstorage can take the load off the CPU by sending data directly from system RAM, to VRAM (to be decompressed by the GPU) instead of going from system RAM to CPU to be decompressed and THEN going to VRAM. It also allows for streamlined batches of data I/O requests instead of the current submit request, wait for completion, submit next request, and so on.

This all sounds great BUT games have to be specifically programmed to take advantage of Directstorage. Also, many top-of-the-line CPUs aren't being burdened by some of the extra steps Directstorage is supposed to eliminate. After reading the articles, I come away feeling like this is another technology in it's infancy (at least from a gaming standpoint), akin to the resizable BAR/Smart Access Memory recently introduced. Once games start getting programmed for Directstorage, and the technology gets all the bugs worked out on the OS side, it may provide a substantial boost but I don't se this happening in the next year or two.

I believe that Microsoft yanked Directstorage from Windows 10 so they can push gamers into upgrading to Windows 11.

 

[USAFRet]

Every version of windows has had bugs

Every new version of every OS, ever, has bugs and weirdnesses.

Apple, Windows, Linux, Android....ALL of them.

 

[Colif]

i wasn't saying it was special in that regard. I don't think there is a perfect OS.

 

[USAFRet]

i wasn't saying it was special in that regard. I don't think there is a perfect OS.

Right.
But many people single out Windows for that, and gloss over the same problems in all the other ones.

"Just go to Linux"
(systemd)

"Apple doesn't have these problems!"
Oh, except for them specifically and purposely slowing down a previous release, to entice you to upgrade.

etc...

 

[Colif]

Windows is to blame for everything. PC breaks, must be windows.
BSOD happens, blames ntoskrnl - damn it, windows broke pc again (its rarely the case)

Malware encrypts all your data... damn it Windows, why aren't you more secure... Windows 11 adds TPM for security... damn it windows,now I can't update to latest version... windows why you do this to me¿?¿?

Maybe the numbers of users on each is the reason one is singled out. More people will understand a windows error than say a Mac or Linux one. Or maybe experienced it themselves.

 

[Endre]

Windows 11 looks great and feels great.
I’m running it as we speak.

The only thing that worries me is “the new direction” of Microsoft!
So far, we enjoyed the freedom of using Windows the way we wanted to. Having complete control over our PCs.
Everything started changing with Windows 10 and the updates that can’t be turned off.
Now, Windows 11 introduces Secure Boot, TPM 2.0, and 8th+ CPU gen. as requirements.
Microsoft seems to become more like Apple!

I think that their final goal is for us, users, to no longer have any data stored on our PCs, but on their Cloud Service!
That means losing completely the control over our data!
Even if this is not happening right now; the steps that are being taken seem to be in that direction.

PS: I hope that I’m wrong...

 

[hotaru.hino]

Windows is to blame for everything. PC breaks, must be windows.
BSOD happens, blames ntoskrnl - damn it, windows broke pc again (its rarely the case)

Malware encrypts all your data... damn it Windows, why aren't you more secure... Windows 11 adds TPM for security... damn it windows,now I can't update to latest version... windows why you do this to me¿?¿?

Maybe the numbers of users on each is the reason one is singled out. More people will understand a windows error than say a Mac or Linux one. Or maybe experienced it themselves.

Raymond Chen's The Old New Thing shaped my perspective that if there's something wrong while using Windows, 99% of the time it's the fault of the developer of the app or the user. Well, that is to say I'm not saying Microsoft is near peerless, but developers can't be completely absolved of fault either. Especially when you consider the whole reason why Windows Side-by-Side exists is to "patch-in" behavior that apps relied on, even though the developers were told not to do it or it was undocumented and hence, was subject to the chopping block at any given time.

 

[USAFRet]

I think that their final goal is for us, users, to no longer have any data stored on our PCs, but on their Cloud Service!
That means losing completely the control over our data!
Even if this is not happening right now; the steps that are being taken seem to be in that direction.

Final goal?

Not with anything on the horizon...Not Win 11.
Apple is much farther down that path than Microsoft is.

 

[Endre]

Final goal?

Not with anything on the horizon...Not Win 11.
Apple is much farther down that path than Microsoft is.

I totally agree.
But Microsoft seems to take Apple as their example.
And the steps that they’ve taken lately seems to head to that direction.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

Underneath i am pretty sure its just Windows 10

 

[Colif]

I agree with a lot of this but right at end they get it all wrong when they get to TPM

 

[Pc6777]

If enough people hold off for the next few years and stay on 10, who knows Microsoft could walk back on this tpm stuff and new cpu only nonsense. Microsoft bends to it's user base when enough people get fed up, look at what happened with windows 8. Or when windows 10 x was canceled because nobody uses the Microsoft store, if you don't give power they will bend to the will of there users.

 

[revodo]

I don't think much has changed under the hood. Tons of people have taken the beta for a test drive and there's an almost non-existent report of anything breaking. It looks to be a few additions (almost no alterations to existing technology) and a visual overhaul.

 

[xenthia]

I enjoyed reading through this thread. I haven't had the chance yet to actually try the new Windows 11 for two reasons: 1 I don't have TPM (sure I can buy the module and add it, but in Iran where I live it is easier said than done) and 2- My CPU is not supported.

But does that mean I am not happy about Windows 11? No. Why?
Because the need for enforcing TPM has always been there for more than a decade, and honestly sine the 1960s there were talks about hardware hacks and firmware attacks and IC malicious tampering in production. TPM coupled with new CPU technology can partly prevent this sort of attack. BUT that is only true when done properly and with no backdoors. The stuff is getting so overly engineered and with so many intertwined compartments that almost no one can tell or know (besides the people in the know) that there is an encrypted backdoor in the hardware that no blackbox attempt can uncover it.
The way I see it, the paradigm has always been keep the masses protected from each other, by making them feel secure, yet us in the power having access to all their information and networks. God forbid if the tables are turned and the masses have access to the secret backdoor or __NSAKEY.

But aside from the long-waited-for security features, like CPU security stuff and TPM, Microsoft posts say something about improving speed, functionality and performance.

I personally would wait for it to get more stable. Although I will run a VM for the insider program trying to help here and there, but I will jump ship perhaps in two or three years, much like I did for transitioning from 8.1 to 10.

 

[hotaru.hino]

I enjoyed reading through this thread. I haven't had the chance yet to actually try the new Windows 11 for two reasons: 1 I don't have TPM (sure I can buy the module and add it, but in Iran where I live it is easier said than done) and 2- My CPU is not supported.

But does that mean I am not happy about Windows 11? No. Why?
Because the need for enforcing TPM has always been there for more than a decade, and honestly sine the 1960s there were talks about hardware hacks and firmware attacks and IC malicious tampering in production. TPM coupled with new CPU technology can partly prevent this sort of attack. BUT that is only true when done properly and with no backdoors. The stuff is getting so overly engineered and with so many intertwined compartments that almost no one can tell or know (besides the people in the know) that there is an encrypted backdoor in the hardware that no blackbox attempt can uncover it.
The way I see it, the paradigm has always been keep the masses protected from each other, by making them feel secure, yet us in the power having access to all their information and networks. God forbid if the tables are turned and the masses have access to the secret backdoor or __NSAKEY.

But aside from the long-waited-for security features, like CPU security stuff and TPM, Microsoft posts say something about improving speed, functionality and performance.

I personally would wait for it to get more stable. Although I will run a VM for the insider program trying to help here and there, but I will jump ship perhaps in two or three years, much like I did for transitioning from 8.1 to 10.

There's this video I keep sharing and why I think it's important to have TPM and all that:

And while I understand the plight of people who bemoan things like a lack of control over their computers and doomsday scenarios, I also feel they don't understand that a vast majority of computer users need this kind of protection to prevent attackers from easily sneaking in and blowing things up. To those people, a computer is just a tool and they want the tool to just work and not have to worry about having 5 different disaster plans.

Besides that, I would really like to see those same people go through a hard pen test to see how much they really know about their security.

 

[Pc6777]

There's this video I keep sharing and why I think it's important to have TPM and all that:

And while I understand the plight of people who bemoan things like a lack of control over their computers and doomsday scenarios, I also feel they don't understand that a vast majority of computer users need this kind of protection to prevent attackers from easily sneaking in and blowing things up. To those people, a computer is just a tool and they want the tool to just work and not have to worry about having 5 different disaster plans.

Besides that, I would really like to see those same people go through a hard pen test to see how much they really know about their security.

That's why Microsoft should appeal to everyone and have hidden settings for people who don't want to be confined. Or instead of requiring tpm, make it optional and highly recommend it for use cases were security is very important.

 

[xenthia]

There's this video I keep sharing and why I think it's important to have TPM and all that:

And while I understand the plight of people who bemoan things like a lack of control over their computers and doomsday scenarios, I also feel they don't understand that a vast majority of computer users need this kind of protection to prevent attackers from easily sneaking in and blowing things up. To those people, a computer is just a tool and they want the tool to just work and not have to worry about having 5 different disaster plans.

Besides that, I would really like to see those same people go through a hard pen test to see how much they really know about their security.

Thank you. I agree with your statement. But a hard pen test if done properly can in the end reveal something. I mean no one is ever secure. Failure is part of the game.

In any case, while I have read some stuff over the years about TPM and hardware security, and watched people laugh at me and telling me it was impossible for firmware to be hacked, my real practical field related question is:

If I purchase a new laptop, that has TPM, lets say a bad actor opens up the laptop and alters one of the chips to implant a hardware malware, now if I configure the TPM (because I as the customer think that the laptop is new and hasn't been tampered with) does the TPM detect the implanted malware and the altered chip or TPM only really protects after it has been configured properly and with each TPM reset all that detection is gone?

 

[Endre]

There's this video I keep sharing and why I think it's important to have TPM and all that:

And while I understand the plight of people who bemoan things like a lack of control over their computers and doomsday scenarios, I also feel they don't understand that a vast majority of computer users need this kind of protection to prevent attackers from easily sneaking in and blowing things up. To those people, a computer is just a tool and they want the tool to just work and not have to worry about having 5 different disaster plans.

Besides that, I would really like to see those same people go through a hard pen test to see how much they really know about their security.

TPM is a double bladed sword:
It is more secure against hackers and malware, but users will fall under the control of Microsoft!
Microsoft will choose what can be installed on your PC.
They can ban apps!
They might even decide to delete programs that are already installed!
(Think of what Apple did to both Tumblr and Parler).

PS: I hope that I’m wrong...

 

[Endre]

Thank you. I agree with your statement. But a hard pen test if done properly can in the end reveal something. I mean no one is ever secure. Failure is part of the game.

In any case, while I have read some stuff over the years about TPM and hardware security, and watched people laugh at me and telling me it was impossible for firmware to be hacked, my real practical field related question is:

If I purchase a new laptop, that has TPM, lets say a bad actor opens up the laptop and alters one of the chips to implant a hardware malware, now if I configure the TPM (because I as the customer think that the laptop is new and hasn't been tampered with) does the TPM detect the implanted malware and the altered chip or TPM only really protects after it has been configured properly and with each TPM reset all that detection is gone?

I believe that Microsoft’s plan is to make the PC boot and be checked online instantaneously.
Microsoft’s cloud will have the encrypted keys of everyone.
If something’s wrong with the bootloader, they’ll know it.

 

[Pc6777]

I believe that Microsoft’s plan is to make the PC boot and be checked online instantaneously.
Microsoft’s cloud will have the encrypted keys of everyone.
If something’s wrong with the bootloader, they’ll know it.

At this point, I'm really hoping the wine devs keep working hard so one day I can jump ship and never look back. All I need is a runtime environment for my programs.

 

[Endre]

At this point, I'm really hoping the wine devs keep working hard so one day I can jump ship and never look back. All I need is a runtime environment for my programs.

Yeah, it’s bad when someone else has the control over YOUR device.

 

[xenthia]

That's why Microsoft should appeal to everyone and have hidden settings for people who don't want to be confined. Or instead of requiring tpm, make it optional and highly recommend it for use cases were security is very important.

While I understand your reasoning and concern regarding many privacy issues that TPM implementation can have for the masses, true implementation of hardware security is only possible by hardcoded firmware signature analysis or else firmware alterations would still be possible and are actually on the rise. In some countries silent malicious actors are altering chips using JTAG, in order to spy on their customers, the only possible solution that can prevent this rising security issue is TPM, to some extent.