Worldgorger Question

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

First the cards in question:


 Worldgorger Dragon
 Creature-Nightmare Dragon
 3RRR 7/7

Flying, trample. When Worldgorger Dragon comes into play, remove all
other permanents you control from the game. When Worldgorger Dragon
leaves play, return the removed cards to play under their owners'
control.



 Sneak Attack
 Enchantment
 3R

R: Put a creature card from your hand into play. That creature gains
haste until end of turn. Sacrifice the creature at end of turn.



Let's say my opponent uses Sneak Attack to put Dragon into play.
Sneak Attack (and all his other permanents) are removed from play.
Does the Dragon still have the "Sacrifice the creature at end of turn"
attached to it?

Terry Detrie

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Terry Detrie <detrie@mindspring.com> wrote:

> First the cards in question:
>
>
> Worldgorger Dragon
> Creature-Nightmare Dragon
> 3RRR 7/7
>
> Flying, trample. When Worldgorger Dragon comes into play, remove all
> other permanents you control from the game. When Worldgorger Dragon
> leaves play, return the removed cards to play under their owners'
> control.
>
>
>
> Sneak Attack
> Enchantment
> 3R
>
> R: Put a creature card from your hand into play. That creature gains
> haste until end of turn. Sacrifice the creature at end of turn.
>
>
>
> Let's say my opponent uses Sneak Attack to put Dragon into play.
> Sneak Attack (and all his other permanents) are removed from play.
> Does the Dragon still have the "Sacrifice the creature at end of turn"
> attached to it?

Yes, along with the "gains haste until end of turn". Why wouldn't it?

404.4. An effect may create a delayed triggered ability that can do
something at a later time. A delayed triggered ability will contain
"when," "whenever," or "at," although that word won't usually begin the
ability.

402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of
its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal of the
source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some
abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal
Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the
ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or
triggered ability that references information about the source will
check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the
source's last known information if it's no longer in play.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 03:56:32 GMT, Terry Detrie <detrie@mindspring.com> wrote:
>First the cards in question:
> Worldgorger Dragon
> Creature-Nightmare Dragon
> 3RRR 7/7
>
>Flying, trample. When Worldgorger Dragon comes into play, remove all
>other permanents you control from the game. When Worldgorger Dragon
>leaves play, return the removed cards to play under their owners' control.
>
> Sneak Attack
> Enchantment
> 3R
>
>R: Put a creature card from your hand into play. That creature gains
>haste until end of turn. Sacrifice the creature at end of turn.

Before reading further: the delayed activated ability from Sneak Attack's
ability is created when the Sneak Attack ability resolves, and does not
in any way depend on still having the Sneak Attack itself around at end
of turn. If you Sneak out a Worldgorger Dragon in your Beginning phase, first
Main phase, or beginning of combat step, you'll be able to attack with it
that turn AND you'll have all your other permanents go away before it can
attack AND you'll have to sacrifice it at end of turn if it's still in play
then AND you'll get your other stuff back during that same end-of-turn step,
usually.

>Let's say my opponent uses Sneak Attack to put Dragon into play.
>Sneak Attack (and all his other permanents) are removed from play.
>Does the Dragon still have the "Sacrifice the creature at end of turn"
>attached to it?

Yes. That's a delayed triggered ability created as the Sneak Attack ability
resolves; it's not an ability given to the Sneak Attack itself or anything.
It waits around, in no particular zone and not associated with any particular
permanent, until end-of-turn step starts, then triggers and goes onto the
stack.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Terry Detrie sez:

<<
>Let's say my opponent uses Sneak Attack to put (Worldgorger) Dragon into play.
>Sneak Attack (and all his other permanents) are removed from play.
>Does the Dragon still have the "Sacrifice the creature at end of turn"
>attached to it?
>
>>

Yes. The ability by the Sneak Attack does ALL the things at once: Puts the
Dragon into play, gives it haste, and gives it the DTA. After ALL of that is
done, THEN the triggered ability of the Dragon removes everything else you have
from the game. This doesn't remove everything SA has given. You don't lose
the pretty rose the flower girl has given you just because someone has
kidnapped her...


----
"I remember back in the day we'd stay up all night...during the summer playing
DnD. Just us, a 12 pack of mtn. dew, a pizza, and alot of sacrificing newborns
on the altar to the lord Satan. good times, good times."
--From Fark.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Additional Worldgorgers situations I'd like to clear up:

1) If I were to put creatures out with Sneak Attack prior to
Worldgorger, then those creatures are removed and returned to play at
end of turn when I have to sac the Worldgorger. May I assume that the
returning creatures do NOT have a delayed triggered ability?

2) Let's say I have a morph creature face down when Worldgorger comes
into play. Based on the following rule I assume that creature goes to
the "Removed From Game" zone face down and if it returns stays face
down. Is this correct?


E.5.1 - Face down cards in the removed from game zone (see Rule Z.8)
or phased out zone (see Rule Z.7) cannot be looked at by any player.
E.5.6 - Face down cards in play are revealed when they leave the
in-play zone (except if phasing out), even if the new zone the card
would also be face down. They are also revealed at the end of the
game. This allows everyone to ensure that the game was played fairly.


On 27 Apr 2004 23:45:44 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 03:56:32 GMT, Terry Detrie <detrie@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>First the cards in question:
>> Worldgorger Dragon
>> Creature-Nightmare Dragon
>> 3RRR 7/7
>>
>>Flying, trample. When Worldgorger Dragon comes into play, remove all
>>other permanents you control from the game. When Worldgorger Dragon
>>leaves play, return the removed cards to play under their owners' control.
>>
>> Sneak Attack
>> Enchantment
>> 3R
>>
>>R: Put a creature card from your hand into play. That creature gains
>>haste until end of turn. Sacrifice the creature at end of turn.
>
>Before reading further: the delayed activated ability from Sneak Attack's
>ability is created when the Sneak Attack ability resolves, and does not
>in any way depend on still having the Sneak Attack itself around at end
>of turn. If you Sneak out a Worldgorger Dragon in your Beginning phase, first
>Main phase, or beginning of combat step, you'll be able to attack with it
>that turn AND you'll have all your other permanents go away before it can
>attack AND you'll have to sacrifice it at end of turn if it's still in play
>then AND you'll get your other stuff back during that same end-of-turn step,
>usually.
>
>>Let's say my opponent uses Sneak Attack to put Dragon into play.
>>Sneak Attack (and all his other permanents) are removed from play.
>>Does the Dragon still have the "Sacrifice the creature at end of turn"
>>attached to it?
>
>Yes. That's a delayed triggered ability created as the Sneak Attack ability
>resolves; it's not an ability given to the Sneak Attack itself or anything.
>It waits around, in no particular zone and not associated with any particular
>permanent, until end-of-turn step starts, then triggers and goes onto the
>stack.
>
>Dave

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Terry Detrie <detrie@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Additional Worldgorgers situations I'd like to clear up:
>
>1) If I were to put creatures out with Sneak Attack prior to
>Worldgorger, then those creatures are removed and returned to play at
>end of turn when I have to sac the Worldgorger. May I assume that the
>returning creatures do NOT have a delayed triggered ability?

Correct. Why? Because they left play... and any delayed triggered ability
will "lose track of" them at that time. It won't be able to "find" them or
affect them later, even if they've returned to play before the ability
triggers/resolves. [Even if they phased out and got brought back by Time and
Tide, in fact; leaving play means effects with durations expire, and delayed
triggered abilities lose track of you.]

The creature -cards- that return to play will be the same cards... but they
will represent different creature permanents, fresh and new, that have no
particular "memory" of ever being in play before. In particular, they won't
know after they come back that Sneak Attack ever put their card into play
earlier, or that a delayed triggered ability is/was waiting around to
affect them.

>2) Let's say I have a morph creature face down when Worldgorger comes
>into play. Based on the following rule I assume that creature goes to
>the "Removed From Game" zone face down and if it returns stays face
>down. Is this correct?

No; you're looking at the wrong rule.

>E.5.1 - Face down cards in the removed from game zone (see Rule Z.8)
>or phased out zone (see Rule Z.7) cannot be looked at by any player.

This isn't a rule, this is a Ruling. The _rule_ about this is 217.7b, and also
504.6; a face-down creature that leaves play is revealed as it changes zones,
and will be face-up in the RFG zone. (And will come back to play face-up
later when the Dragon ability puts it back into play.)

>E.5.6 - Face down cards in play are revealed when they leave the
>in-play zone (except if phasing out), even if the new zone the card
>would also be face down. They are also revealed at the end of the
>game. This allows everyone to ensure that the game was played fairly.

This is correct. The Dragon's effect doesn't phase anything out; phasing
wasn't used by anything after Mirage block, and nothing that used phasing
has ever been reprinted after that.

>>Yes. That's a delayed triggered ability created as the Sneak Attack ability
>>resolves; it's not an ability given to the Sneak Attack itself or anything.
>>It waits around, in no particular zone and not associated with any particular
>>permanent, until end-of-turn step starts, then triggers and goes onto the
>>stack.

However, per 404.4d, that delayed triggered ability will stop being able to
affect the Sneak-ed in creature the moment that creature leaves play,
regardless of where it leaves play for.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> 1) If I were to put creatures out with Sneak Attack prior to
> Worldgorger, then those creatures are removed and returned to play at
> end of turn when I have to sac the Worldgorger. May I assume that the
> returning creatures do NOT have a delayed triggered ability?

That's correct. When things change zones, things that were trying to
affect them lose track and stop affecting them (except things that
specifically watch zone changes, like Ivory Cup). So the returned creatures
will have no kill-me-at-end-of-turn bullseye sitting on them.

> 2) Let's say I have a morph creature face down when Worldgorger comes
> into play. Based on the following rule I assume that creature goes to
> the "Removed From Game" zone face down and if it returns stays face
> down. Is this correct?

When they return to play, they will be face up. Again, zone changing
makes cards forget what they were originally, so when the card comes back
into play it has no memory of what it was the first time it was in play, so
it comes into play in the default state, untapped and face up. This leads to
fun tricks involving Astral Slide and Krosan Cloudscraper. While your
creature is out of play, I *think* it will be face up also. I'm pretty sure
anything that gets removed from the game is always face up unless the effect
removing it specifially says it is removed face down. But I could be wrong.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 02:02:08 GMT, Chris Wiegert <cwiegert@telus.net> wrote:
> That's correct. When things change zones, things that were trying to
>affect them lose track and stop affecting them (except things that
>specifically watch zone changes, like Ivory Cup)

?

Do you mean, perhaps, Ivory _Gargoyle_ here?

>While your creature is out of play, I *think* it will be face up also.

Yes.

>I'm pretty sure
>anything that gets removed from the game is always face up unless the effect
>removing it specifially says it is removed face down. But I could be wrong.

You are not wrong. Also, note that the effects that -do- say to remove
something from the game face down ALL are removing the something either from
someone's hand, or from someone's library. There's nothing that removes
stuff from play face-down (nor is there likely to be)...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.