Discussion Worrying power trends in new PC components.

[Order 66]

The trend toward CPUs and GPUs using more and more power is worrying, I mean the 14900k will use 250W+ if cooled well enough. not to mention some 4090 models can use 600W. I want to hear the community's opinions on this. If this continues, a 120V 15A outlet won't be enough. I am fully aware that you can undervolt and underclock and save power, but I am more referring to stock settings and/or overclocking.

 

[TerryLaze]

if cooled well enough.

Well, there's your problem...
Cool it less and it will draw less power, intel chips have a shut off temp of 130 degrees so even reaching 100 degrees isn't really hot as far as the chip is concerned.

View: https://youtu.be/XpAyplH17A8?t=373

 

[Order 66]

Well, there's your problem...
Cool it less and it will draw less power, intel chips have a shut off temp of 130 degrees so even reaching 100 degrees isn't really hot as far as the chip is concerned.

View: https://youtu.be/XpAyplH17A8?t=373

Yes, but then you're not getting the full performance you paid for. That is kind of my point, these new intel CPUs draw so much power and must be cooled so well to get the full performance to the point where a 120V 15A outlet may not be enough for top-tier hardware.

 

[DSzymborski]

The trend toward CPUs and GPUs using more and more power is worrying, I mean the 14900k will use 250W+ if cooled well enough. not to mention some 4090 models can use 600W. I want to hear the community's opinions on this. If this continues, a 120V 15A outlet won't be enough. I am fully aware that you can undervolt and underclock and save power, but I am more referring to stock settings and/or overclocking.

I don't expect this to happen because it would be a significant roadblock to adoption with consumers, especially in the US. People will spend a couple thousand to update their garages for an electric vehicle, but there's a big difference between that upgrade for a $60,000 car and a $1,000 GPU.

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

The trend toward CPUs and GPUs using more and more power is worrying, I mean the 14900k will use 250W+ if cooled well enough. not to mention some 4090 models can use 600W. I want to hear the community's opinions on this. If this continues, a 120V 15A outlet won't be enough. I am fully aware that you can undervolt and underclock and save power, but I am more referring to stock settings and/or overclocking.

Yeah, I'd kinda agree with you there. In terms of more power usage, you could argue that Intel CPU need a lot more power to keep up with AMD, who's chips are much more efficient. Specially so for Intel 12th/13th/14th gen.

Zen 3/AM4 really set the bar for power/efficiency.

With that said, both AMD/Intel this gen have released hot chips. That they run up to 100c (which is considered normal) and can keep it up there (task depending) is a worrying trend.

The downside is that beefier coolers are required to keep up with those temps. An added cost no-one wants. And even then, the coolers will be running fast and very audible.

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

100 degrees isn't really hot as far as the chip is concerned.

Yes, but it is for your cooler. Needs to be top notch to get those temps tamed. High end air or 280-360 AIO

 

[Order 66]

I don't expect this to happen because it would be a significant roadblock to adoption with consumers, especially in the US. People will spend a couple thousand to update their garages for an electric vehicle, but there's a big difference between that upgrade for a $60,000 car and a $1,000 GPU.

Yes, but you have to admit that the potential increase in the price of the power bill is worrying. Now, you could make the argument that if you can afford top-tier hardware, then you can afford the increase in electricity costs. You could always undervolt or underclock, but then you're paying for performance that you wouldn't be getting.

 

[Order 66]

Yeah, I'd kinda agree with you there. In terms of more power usage, you could argue that Intel CPU need a lot more power to keep up with AMD, who's chips are much more efficient. Specially so for Intel 12th/13th/14th gen.

Zen 3/AM4 really set the bar for power/efficiency.

With that said, both AMD/Intel this gen have released hot chips. That they run up to 100c (which is considered normal) and can keep it up there (task depending) is a worrying trend.

The downside is that beefier coolers are required to keep up with those temps. An added cost no-one wants. And even then, the coolers will be running fast and very audible.

That is why I went with the 7700x for my PC. I wanted to try AMD and I knew that Zen 4 was really efficient. Not to mention the 4090 can use 400W or I know that there was a dual GPU card that was capable of drawing 580W, but I can't remember the name.

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

That is why I went with the 7700x for my PC. I wanted to try AMD and I knew that Zen 4 was really efficient. Not to mention the 4090 can use 400W or I know that there was a dual GPU card that was capable of drawing 580W, but I can't remember the name.

The 4090 can have power spikes north of 500w : https://nationalpcbuilder.com/rtx-4...x-4090-use-and-what-power-supply-do-you-need/

This was a little better than the 3090 which sometimes went higher than 550w and touched on 600w.

 

[TerryLaze]

Yes, but then you're not getting the full performance you paid for. That is kind of my point, these new intel CPUs draw so much power and must be cooled so well to get the full performance to the point where a 120V 15A outlet may not be enough for top-tier hardware.

You maybe won't get the performance that the review sites sold you on, but that's different from the performance you paid for, for the 14900k as an example you paid for 125W TDP with a max turbo of 253W.
You can reach 125W with a crap cooler, that is the minimum you paid for.
Even getting 253W is very easy for any medium cooler.

If "what you paid for" is the maximum performance then you would have top get world record hwinfo overclocking speeds, anything less than that is "less than what you paid for".

Yes, but it is for your cooler. Needs to be top notch to get those temps tamed. High end air or 280-360 AIO

That's not how that works, the only thing your cooler cares about is the power it has to dissipate.
And you don't need to tame anything, the CPU tames itself and stays at 100 degrees, it can't get hotter unless you do some advances overclocking settings on mobos that support to go above that, as I said shut off temp is 130 so 100 is way below any concern of taming.

 

[DSzymborski]

Yes, but you have to admit that the potential increase in the price of the power bill is worrying. Now, you could make the argument that if you can afford top-tier hardware, then you can afford the increase in electricity costs. You could always undervolt or underclock, but then you're paying for performance that you wouldn't be getting.

Well, it doesn't really worry me because I think they're not far from the ceiling of competitive consumer products in the US because of those power requirements. In any case, the difference between using exactly 500W for 24 hours a day and 1000W 24 hours a day in the US is about $30 a month, and that's a gross exaggeration of how these things would be used.

The 40 series generally used *less* power than their equivalent 30 series counterparts.

They've had generations with power spikes before and some of the increase we've seen is because companies have fundamentally changed the behavior of CPUs/GPUs to make them basically overclock themselves. And there's a ceiling to that, too.

This is all a tempest in a teapot. You may see most consumer GPUs use more power -- though again, trends like this are hard to predict and rarely linear -- but I think worrying about the amperes on home circuits, even in the worst-case scenario, will only be for people who feel the need to buy extremely high-priced niche GPUs.

The RX 590 and Nvidia 7970 GHz edition didn't herald an explosion in power usage, either. I overclocked the hell out of the last one for fun since mine was very cooperative and measured spikes around 500W and this was more than a decade ago.

 

[Order 66]

You maybe won't get the performance that the review sites sold you on, but that's different from the performance you paid for, for the 14900k as an example you paid for 125W TDP with a max turbo of 253W.
You can reach 125W with a crap cooler, that is the minimum you paid for.
Even getting 253W is very easy for any medium cooler.

If "what you paid for" is the maximum performance then you would have top get world record hwinfo overclocking speeds, anything less than that is "less than what you paid for".

That's not how that works, the only thing your cooler cares about is the power it has to dissipate.
And you don't need to tame anything, the CPU tames itself and stays at 100 degrees, it can't get hotter unless you do some advances overclocking settings on mobos that support to go above that, as I said shut off temp is 130 so 100 is way below any concern of taming.

I was referring to the turbo power. Define "medium cooler"

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

the only thing your cooler cares about is the power it has to dissipate.

The cooler doesn't care about anything. Also, it dissipates heat! Not power.

it can't get hotter

No one has said they go beyond that. Only that at 100c (operating temps when the CPU is pushed) you need a really good cooler to get temps lower than 100c consistently and at higher loads. Fan noise at 100c all the time, will grate on anyone.

 

[TerryLaze]

I was referring to the turbo power. Define "medium cooler"

So you want to run at maximum turbo, probably even 24/7, and yet you worry about high power draw....

Define "medium cooler"

The DeepCool AG400 cools for 277W that's above the official limit of 253W so it would even be below 100 degrees.
And that's a dirt cheap cooler.

Amazon Basics CPU Cooler Review: Quiet Air Cooling for Mainstream Rigs

Amazon enters the CPU Cooling game with an affordable, quiet cooler

www.tomshardware.com

 

[Order 66]

I remember the GPU I was thinking of earlier, it was the Powercolor Radeon R9 290 Dual Core Devil13 which has a TDP of 580W. Does anyone remember this card?

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

I was referring to the turbo power. Define "medium cooler"

I'd say this is somewhat representative of the medium cooler: https://www.tomshardware.com/features/intel-core-13900k-cooling-tested/2. But also note the conclusion:

'Conclusion​

The level of cooling you’ll need for Intel’s Core i9-13900K will depend on the performance you expect out of it, as well as whatever power limit you set for the CPU. For common, bursty tasks, even an entry-level aftermarket cooler will allow the CPU to run at its highest supported stock clock speeds. For more demanding tasks, something that makes use of all or most of the cores, a strong liquid cooler will improve performance by up to 12%, while also potentially allowing for overclocking headroom'

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

The DeepCool AG400 cools for 277W that's above the official limit of 253W so it would even be below 100 degrees.
And that's a dirt cheap cooler.

This may be true, but would you want to listen to the fans spinning up to 100% on that cooler al the time, or at least being pushed a little.? It would be nasty.

Also, even at stock the 13900k (exact same as 14900k) hits higher power draw.

https://imgur.com/thGkECy

View: https://imgur.com/thGkECy

 

[Order 66]

So you want to run at maximum turbo, probably even 24/7, and yet you worry about high power draw....

The DeepCool AG400 cools for 277W that's above the official limit of 253W so it would even be below 100 degrees.
And that's a dirt cheap cooler.

Amazon Basics CPU Cooler Review: Quiet Air Cooling for Mainstream Rigs

Amazon enters the CPU Cooling game with an affordable, quiet cooler

www.tomshardware.com

NO! I was just wondering what kind of cooler it would take to cool the 14900k at 253W for heavy multicore workloads. I do leave my PC running 24/7 (I do restart about once a week.) because I like games being able to auto-update while it's on.

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

I remember the GPU I was thinking of earlier, it was the Powercolor Radeon R9 290 Dual Core Devil13 which has a TDP of 580W. Does anyone remember this card?

With a suggested PSU of 950w 🤣

 

[TerryLaze]

This may be true, but would you want to listen to the fans spinning up to 100% on that cooler al the time, or at least being pushed a little.? It would be nasty.

It is one of the quieter coolers.
And if you want quiet you can limit the power to the CPU to get quiet.

Also, even at stock the 13900k (exact same as 14900k) hits higher power draw.

Again, the CPU will draw the maximum that the cooler will allow, look at the video from derbauer again, he didn't change any setting and the m.2 cooler was cooling for around 70W making the CPU draw around that much.

 

[Order 66]

With a suggested PSU of 950w 🤣

How was the performance of the card at the time? I know that now it would be terrible given that most games are not designed for dual GPU cards.

 

[DSzymborski]

The R9 290 and R9 290X were not dual GPU cards. The GTX 590 and GTX 690 were.

 

[Order 66]

The R9 290 and R9 290X were not dual GPU cards. The GTX 590 and GTX 690 were.

True, but the model that I was referring to is.

PowerColor Devil 13 Dual Core R9 290X Specs

AMD Hawaii x2, 1000 MHz, 2816 Cores, 176 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 4096 MB GDDR5, 1350 MHz, 512 bit

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Order 66]

With a suggested PSU of 950w 🤣

How was the performance of the card at the time? I know that now it would be terrible given that most games are not designed for dual GPU cards.

 

[stonecarver]

How was the performance of the card at the time? I know that now it would be terrible given that most games are not designed for dual GPU cards.

It's interesting I have two GTX 690 dual GPU cards in daily gaming machines. Sure new AAA game won't kick up the second GPU but here is the interesting part. Nvidia cut off support in drivers years ago. The most current available driver Nvidia released for the GTX 600's will play SLI. On the games that will play in SLI it's like the card is on crack. And where Doom 2016 played like dog crud on release now with the newer drivers + Doom 2016 play like butter.

The FPS is not as high but most game that will do SLI you can run it in ultra but game speed is through the roof.

The best way to describe it is where your walking in a game and you hit shift to run. Your on run before you hit shift and on turbo run when you do hit shift.