Wow--New Black Edition Phenom Next Week-- Comments?

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coret

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And when Intel calls a chip "extreme" when all they do is unlock the multiplier ... does that get you excited? Considering the better (though not easier) overclock comes from FSB overclocking, I wouldn't call it particularly extreme. What is "extreme" about them though, is their price.

With the Black Editions, at least they're only a few % more expensive than their regular counterparts - and that fact will get people excited.

In other words ... Shush.

 

yomamafor1

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I guess we'll see next week. However, from what I've known so far, it will take a little while before B3 is released. AMD's own PR said April to May.
 

jimmysmitty

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Acttually the original Extreme Edition CPUs from Intel had both a unlocked multipler and 2x the cache not to mention that the multi is normaly higher than a normal chip. But for the current series there is no more need for the extra cache as they come with either 4(X6800/6850) or 8(QX6800/6850) which is quite a bit of chace to have especially when each core can access all of it when needed if the other cores are idle. Works great in single threaded apps. The unlocked multi is great for OC'ing. You can OC a QX6850 or QX9450 to 4GHz on a 333FSB by raising the multi to 12 and the heat doesn't increase as much as raising the FSB to 400 and the multi to 10 and less voltage raise as well. As per price I agree that 1k is too much for a chip but the FX-60 debute at 1k when they were the top performers so its just how it is. If you had to pay just $400-$500 for the EE versions most would buy it.

Now I do not see how AMD can release a BE version of the B2 steppings. It wont help any if you put the patch for the TLB since you will lose performance but increase the heat and power usage and that would destroy a BE's price/performance/per watt ratio right there since it underperforms stock vs a Q6600 and uses more power.

AMD did make a lot of claims and promises but never delivered. Thats what irritates me. They don't have a competative product and are still trying to sell off defective ships to newbies.

One note, BM its "like" not "liek". That gets to me after seeing it. I understand a mistake or two but that happens a lot.
 

atomicWAR

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well it is certainly an interesting time to be considering buying a new pc. i am disappointed across the board in the cpu/gpu/mobo catagories. first off, baron i apperiate your euthusism (can't spell for @#$% so forgive me) for amd, lord knows they could use a miracle right now and having people like you behind them...call u fanboy or not...does help them. Fact is until the b3 stepping is out, benched, and price/performance ratio is in place...everything is purely speculation on how its going to affect the market and the enthusist community. now witht the 700 series mobo's from amd i have seen a huge flaw with all the pci express 2.0 slots. unless amd has single slot solutions as there long term graphix goal for all their cards (not the case now)...how in the hell you going to run a tri-fire/ quad-fire system in the first place unless u use low end single slots cards. not very ideal for any enthusist who wants the most FPS possible. AMD, your screwing up hard, fast, and rolling down to the very bottom of the preverbile pile of 5h!t.

So everyone cry the praise of intel...oh wait have a 680i mobo and want to run yorksfield...oops have to get a 780i just released today to pull that one off cause intel changed the micro-code at the last second so it intentionally wouldn't work on them... (next year its gonna be nethelam so same sad song is coming again, and yeah nvidia licesnse deal with intel is up at that point)... five bucks says thats over the little agruement of getting intel's own chipsets to run sli offically (ie not hacking the drviers). while 780i allows for double slot tri-sli. there is zero room for any other expansion if you run it. that means onboard sound better be good enough and you best not mind the cpu tax that comes with it. not to mention leaving out the option for a PPU as well (not that they are very battle proven at this point). this lack of slots is something i am less than happy about.

intel has consistantly screwed the enthusist community in mobo's. want a new cpu nine times out of ten it means a new mobo and most likely ram as well. while i am sure the manufacturers love it....i enjoy having a little spare cash even if at a slight performance hit to drop in a new cpu in the board i already have. AMD, until the recent 939 incendent, had been good about making sure you could do just that, why? cause up till now they didn't sell chipsets like intel and had little to gain $$$$. if anything thats how amd maintained its fanboy base. I hope the 939 was only a hiccup in that philosaphy.

we are still waiting to see a am2+ nvidia based chipset. they just may save amd's royal hiney assuming amd gets its b3 stepping to market and at a decent market value. Lets face it more times than not games depend on graphics more than cpu power...more times than not the best gpus on the market are nvidia's, imo. so as a gamer where does that leave you if ur running a dual/tri/quad gpu setup? i hate to be captian obvious on this one but theres a reason sli outsells crossfire (even before the ati buyout). gamers want their gpus to have a ton of horse power within their price range...period. the hd2900xt was a interesting effort in that direction for mainstream but still fell short and they left the high end out all together imo. regardless all of the new chipsets i have seen that run more than two x16 slots are flawed in some serious ways. lets hope the 780a is better thajn its counter part and that in the near future 780i's leave u some extra slots for things other than graphix that are still accessible with tri-sli in effect. the short of it is intel is owning amd right now but depending how the cards fall with upcoming revisions of the mobos (775 and am2+). the deciding factor for enthusists could be more than who has the fastest cpu but rather what setup can offer me what i need at a cost i am willing to pay. wouldn't catch me buying an x38, 680i or 790fx right now. the 780i/a series, i hold off judgement tell more boards hit the market.
 

atomicWAR

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yeah but at what stepping? if it's a b2, well there is zero point with the errata error. if its b3...maybe amd had a horseshoe up its bum the entire time and we might see some turn round. the article u listed doesn't make mention, fact its as vague as a two liner can get.
 

Kamrooz

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Atomicwar: A very LARGE amount of your argument is completely false sorry to say. Who in the world says ATI makes these mobo's? The chipset is what they sell, the PCB is created to the specification desired by the Motherboard manufacturers depending on the model they are making. Unfortunately, you need to get a few of your facts in line before you try to make some jabs at a company. ATI doesn't make the boards, they make the chipset, the mobo manufactuers (asus, gigabyte, XFX, msi, etc) make the boards and how they are organized.

In terms of your tri sli and 3 card argument. Dual slot cards are big, there is also a specification they must design too. Of course you would lose all your slots if you go with tri/quad awith dual slot cooled cards, what do you think? They can increase the number of slots and extend the board so it doesn't fit in any cases? They have a specification they have to design to. The upside of the single slot configuration from AMD, is they allow just that, room to spare for a extra sound card if you wish. Nvidia also has single slot coolers in the 8800 GT form, for tri sli and room for a sound or tv tuner card if you wished. A lot of your arguments have no basis unfortunately, I don't mean this as a bash, but you should read up and think about it logically before you point the finger.

Regarding the AM2+ nvidia chipsets, they are coming, that's what 780A is. When? not sure, we'll have to wait and see. The one thing I do hate though, is the fact that Nvidia is forcing users to use their chipset for SLI/Tri-Sli, why? Because their damn nvidia intel chipsets are horrid imo. the 650/680 are know to be heaty buggers with many other issues. I wouldn't mind it if their chipset was a good performer, but with the issues it has, it makes me stay away from a dual nvidia card setup.

IMO, Nvidia are greedy in this segment of the market, I hope you realize the 780I/A and 750I/A are not new, they are just 650/680 chipsets with a few new features, one is support for PCI-E 2.0, which is idiotic for the 750 chipset when they are limited to 8x in a dual card solution to begin with. In regards to 780I/A, it's just 680, with pci-e 2.0, and a BR-04 bridge chip to allow Tri-Sli. This is a serious slap in the face, I don't understand how nvidia chipset adopters aren't offended. Labeling a old product a new chipset when they just updated it to PCI-E 2.0 and allowing tri-sli is insulting. It has all the same faults that 650/680 had.

The fact is this, if you want a dual card cooling solution with tri or quad graphics, good luck getting a soundcard, that is fact and you'll have to live with it. If it's a absolute necessity, you have single slot cards for a reason, the 8800GT and 3850/3870 deliver with no problems in that regard.

In regards to holding off your judgement, no need, if you have an opinion about 680I/A, carry it over to 780, it's exactly the same, and you should be insulted that this is called a "new" chipset.
 

ro3dog

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Well the link confirm what the INQ and Fudzilla said. I'm interested to know what reviewers that have put it through its paces and give us what it can do uncorked
 

coret

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I wasn't particularly trying to get into a discussion about the highlights of intel vs. the problems with AMD ... i know AMD have been having issues, and agree with your concerns about the BE's being B2. In fact when I've had to give out system recommendations recently, it's always been Intel or K8 depending on budget/pre-existing hardware ... and my next upgrade is going to be intel.

Basically, I just posted out of irritation. The only posts I've seen recently from dragonsprayer have all been entirely flame bait for Baron without even pretending to be discussing the topic at hand.
 

atomicWAR

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first off i apperaite your cander Kamrooz...though i disagree with you on some points. yes i understand its mobo makers, not ati or amd that make the boards. the thing is though they do use amd/ati recommended specs to design there boards. many of my friends work for either intel or amd as engineers, i live in the area and was an engineering major myself until i took up disabled pro sports full time. so i am not just pulling my so called "false facts" from no where. for example the only board i know that doesn't make the mistakes i mentioned about pci e slots is the msi 790fx board MSI K9A2 Platinum AM2+/AM2 AMD 790FX ATX. they do leave one slot if ur running 3 double slot solutions for tri-fire leaving you one pci e 16x slot (which will run any card x1 to x16 so you could get a sound card or a new ppu on the last 16x slot in there). which again nullifies your approach that nvidia can't make the board have enough slots for tri-sli and leave you one slot...though your right they can't make a board longer there are form factor specs that must be adheared to...but it is still possible to leave you one slot with 3 dual card solutions. i don't desagree in the least about what you have to say about nvidia in regards to 780 series just being a rehashes of the 680...we know they are my point was they had to rehash to have 45nm cpu support per intels micro-code trickery going back to intel and nvidia's sli agruement. and yes the 650/680 series were flawed, as is the x38, p35....none are perfect. it's a question if you can get what you want and need from a mobo. as for your arguement avout using a 8800gt for tri-sli, you can't. only gtx's and ultra's have the dual bridge and nvidia has already made that official. granted i give u one scenrio leaving u an expansion slot that works...run water cooled single slot gtx's or ultra's but its hardly feasible for most.

so to return the cander, your wrong on most your counter points. sorry but i can sit here and link u tell next week my proof if need be. as a token of good faith to such claims look at new eggs msi board i mentioned...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130136

before you say you know someones wrong, get your facts straight. its not meant as a bash but if ur going to point a finger at someone and say they are wrong...you best be able to back it up. i can back up EVERYTHING i have said. though i rather not get into a pissing match. its not helpful and i beleive you were only trying to straighten out any lack of transperancy in my arguement and for that i thank you. these posts help to educate eacthother, i wouldn't want to pass on information that wasn't fact based or unclear to the point of confusing a reader to believing something other than what is actually true.
 

pausert20

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Coret, Intel also tests to make sure that the Extreme processors our their highest Binning parts guaranteeing the best overclock possible along with the unlocked multiplier.

As for AMD. They used to have a high End FX line that they charged upwards of $1000 but since they lost the high end all of their products have moved down the pricing scale to mainstream and value. If they had a competitive processor to the current QX6850 or QX9650 then they could charge the same amount. Since they are not competitive they are doing the best they can with what they have.
 

pausert20

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Please provide proof that Intel change the uCode to prevent the production parts from working. Not a supposition but some proof. And yes, I know about the issue that the ES worked but the production samples did not. Please show me that the uCode caused this issue with the Nvidia chipset.

I don't think you can.
 

Kamrooz

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Indeed, I shouldn't have brought up the 8800 GT for tri-sli, but nvidia will in the future release single slot products that will be capable. That was what I should have said. In regards to ati's 3850/3870, they are crossfirex capable in single slot solutions which was my main point. Also, there is no "recommended" ati specs, It's just the ATX form factor which they base their mobo dimensions on. They can organize their pci slots anyway they wish, which they do, if you look at numerous motherboard makers, you'll notice they don't all adopt the same PCI-E slot layout.

Regarding three dual slot cooler cards, the only way to allow a extra slot is if the motherboard manufacturers handled this a PCI/PCI-E slot at the top or bottom for a sound card, while three pci-e 16x slots are fill dual slot graphics cards. This is in the hands of the motherboard makers, there is no ATI specification that doesn't allow this, or Nvidia specification, it's all up to the board manufacturers.

Regarding that board you linked to, that's a crossfirex board based on dual slot coolers, there are single slot versions as well such as this.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128070&Tpk=GA-MA790FX-DQ6

There is no set in stone motherboard design, they choose the layout as they wish. With this motherboard it'd be easy to take four 3850's or 3870's single slots models for a crossfirex configuration.

In terms of nvidia, you should blame them for their greed for not allowing 8800 GT/GTS's in tri-sli, atm it's a enthusiast market, but that will change with their next D9E/D9P/D9M lineup, which by then they should all be tri-sli compatible.

So the bottom line, tri-sli with dual slot coolers can be done with a spare slot (but up to the mobo manufacturers), with quad it's impossible, although they have single slot cooled cards for that area of the market as well. In regards to Nvidia boards not having a open slot, that's something that would have to be taken against the motherboard manufacturers, no one else.

You really should look at more boards than just one, and not claim they have specifications from the chipset company that must be followed, when they surely do not.
 

atomicWAR

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pausert20 what you call supposition of proof is indeed the proof itself. engineering samples worked just fine on the 680i but not retail. its no secrete that intel's contract with nvidia is up at the end of the year. its no secerete intel has pressured nvidia to allow sli to run on their boards and nvidia had refused, repeatedly even after intel swore up and down they had recieved a license with nvidia's blessing. now anything past this for me would be speculation...that said IMO i think either intel hopes to force nvidia into a buyout or bankrupt them by forcing them to get their own x86 license and than devolop a cpu. would nvidia go under? who knows...funny how the x48 gets pushed back as the 780 hits the shelves...not to read into things to much but intel is known for their lack of honesty, need i point out the monoply case that has plagued them? intel is as cut throat as a company can get in the x86 market.
 

atomicWAR

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ok now i think u and i are on the same page kamrooz. notice i said RECOMMENDED specs but that is a moot point for us to tangle compared to the rest of the arguement. sorry if i came across harsh but i know my hardware, as you seem to as well. long story short its a crappy time to do a build imo.

when i was complaining of the 700 series board from amd the board u linked to was just one such complaint of many. most the boards are single slot like that minus the one i linked obviously.
 

Kamrooz

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I do agree that it's a bad time to build. I'm in that predicament right now. On a cruddy x700 pro with a 3.2 prescott, boy is it bad. Planning to build a q9450 yorkfield build with a nvidia 9800, so I'm forced to wait. Fortunately I already have planned out my uses, I've already selected the parts, if something better comes along, I'll replace it. But not going to splurge on a mobo at all, if the 9800 breaks the PCI-E 1.1 bandwidth barrier, I will then, and only then, nab a x38. If it doesn't, a p35-ds3r or asus p5k will last me till Nehalem, after all, nehalem means new socket + chipset...so no point in splurging on a board. I'll just rotate out my board with the q9450 in a spare rig for encoding, and pick up a nehalem socket board and a nehalem cpu as a upgrade after letting the bugs get worked out (if any).

Bah, waiting for the 9800 series is my biggest worry, especially considering the delay of r700. Personally, I believe that Nvidia would of released the 9800 back in November if r600 was competitive, since it wasn't, we ended up getting a major mid range refresh from both companies. I just hope the 9800 doesn't get delayed due to the fact that r700 won't be around till 2009. But I doubt they'll delay it much longer, the 8800 GTX would be at the top for 15 or 16 months at that time. Too long to be at the top IMO.
 

atomicWAR

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on more thing kamrooz, for getting off on the "wrong" foot. i think we helped a lot of peeps not in the "know" think twice about a build right now and whats the best components. i look forward to reading your further posts. thanks again for helping me make my point more clear.
 

niz

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All AMD processors suck right now compared to intel, yes including phenom and yes including whatever marketing label (like "black edition") is this weeks flavour to try and get you to pay good money for ****.
 

Kamrooz

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Although I agree Phenom is a disappointment, and that a black edition Phenom is premature. I don't believe all their processors suck, the x2's are still a fantastic budget chip.
 

pausert20

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Lets take what you said one at a time.

I hear what you are saying but you are not providing proof from any reputable website. You are just saying that because the ES worked and the Production ones did not work it has to be Intel Changing the uCode to not work with the Nvidia 680i or 650i chipsets. I admit it looks suspicious but still not proof. If Intel did what you are saying don't you think Nvidia would be taking them to court?

Mmmmm, do you mean that Nvidia's licensing of Intel's FSB ends this year. Nope your wrong on that. The license is for support of the FSB at 800, 1066 and 1333. I do not know if they license it for 1600 speed. The thing that I don't believe they have is a license for the new CSI interface for the Nehalem processors. At least nothing has hit the news about that.

Please show me anywhere that Intel said they had a license for Nvidia's SLi. They have not. They have said they can run SLi on the unreleased Skulltrail platform. There was all kinds of speculation that Intel would have SLi support on the X38 chipset but that was not true.

Now onto what you are calling your opinions. I don't agree that Intel wants to force Nvidia into a buyout or Bankrupt them by making them get their own X86 license. If you mean bankrupt them buy having to compete in the processor arena that is an interesting thought but I think it is just conspiracy thinking.

As to the X48 push out. Please show me on a roadmap that Intel said that the X48 was going to launch this year. Everything I have seen is that it would launch in 2008.

Then you make the broad statement that Intel is known for their lack of honesty. If this is true they would be fending off lawsuits right and left. They bend the truth meaning they will emphasize a feature over others that do not show them in the best of light compared to a competitor. They don't tell any outright lies because it can hurt them to much financially.

The monopoly case is not about honesty but about improper use of marketing tools like direct discounts for volume sales, marketing dollars if a company shows off Intel logo and the one issue that I don't see how AMD can win on is that Intel has sold processors for less than the cost of manufacture.

Yes, I do agree that Intel is a cutthroat company and will use any advantage they can to stay on top of their game in the X86 market. But if any public company that was not playing to keep growing and making more money I would not be invested in them like I am in Intel.
 

atomicWAR

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you and i are on the same page about the platform in question in regards to sli licensing, skull trail. i have included a link (that also shows updates from intels claim of have a full license to intel restating later they were still using an nvidia chip on there platform to allow sli)...

http://www.hothardware.com/News/Intel_X38_Supports_SLI__Sort_Of/

had a hard time finding nvidia official response to intels intial claim (originally on nvidia home page the day after pat's announcement) to have an sli license but did find an it site referancing it here:

http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2007/06/11/intel-in-a-dilemma---to-sli-or-not-to-sli

as to the frontside bus issue that was the license i had in mind that was expiring sorry i didn't state that...i was far from clear by using the terms like "license agreement" and "this year"...indeed i am refering to the 1600fsb as well as nethelem's csi. which are yet to be released and in the case of the 1600fsb is the next refresh on the x48. and while were on the subject of the X48 i said it had been pushed back (2 months to be exact) i never said a thing about it being released this year. i asserted it was "funny how the x48 gets pushed back as the 780 hits the shelves"). here's a link for the annoucement that came in from tomshardware today, the same day the 780i hit the shelves.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35296/122/

to cover the last point of the monoply and intels shady past...the fact they have a monoply suit is proof of their shady past. i am not gonna justify that claim any further i think i did fine with what i just gave you. as for any of my speculations...they are just that speculations. your free to disagree all you like.


 

pausert20

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http://www.hothardware.com/News/Intel_X38_Supports_SLI__Sort_Of/
The link above is what I have heard from my friend at Intel. I would say it is at 95% correct from what I could wrangle out of him.

The interesting is that Intel supposedly seriously looked at acquiring Nvidia. I have also heard that they blew 3 chances to SLi license. Not sure how true that is but it is something I can believe of Intel.

indeed i am refering to the 1600fsb as well as nethelem's csi.
I have not heard if they do in fact have a license for 1600FSB but I guessing they would. As for CSI, mmmmm I think that is still up in the air. If Intel and Nvidia are in discussion over that then if that goes through I'm betting that Intel will get a SLi license because if that is the sticking point then Nvidia will stop making any Intel chipsets that don't support FSB processors.

As for the X48 chipset. The story has spread that some of the motherboard vendors are looking for more time to decrease their stock of X38 boards prior to the launch of the X48 version boards. What this means is that Intel will most likely not release their QX9770 Extreme Edition Quad processor until they launch the X48 chipset. Since they are designed to go together.

You do know how they are getting the X48 processors. They are binning the X38 chipsets like they do the processors. Certain processors and chipsets fall in a BELL shaped curve based on how fast the transistors work. The fast majority are what are called nominal once you travel far enough down both sides of the curve you get to Slow (S) and Fast (F) and then Slow Slow (SS) and Fast Fast (FF). All of the nominal and slow make up the X38 chipsets and the F and FF are binned as X48 parts. Now they can sku the process to generate more F and FF parts usually by reducing the overall yield from each wafer but since they are supposedly selling the X48 parts to motherboard manufacturers for $70 and the X38 for $50 that what binning gets you.

the fact they have a monopoly suit is proof of their shady past.
I would just like to point out that the EU is still waiting on Intel's response to their findings and until that happens what Intel has done or not is still not proven one way or the other. The Japanese was resolved by a fine but with Intel admitting no fault. You can look at this that they bought themselves out of an issue that they were guilty of or they could have taken it to court and maybe would have lost more money if found guilty. This sort of thing happens all of the time. Not that I'm condoning it. Just seems to be a fact of business.
 

atomicWAR

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seems like we on a similar page as far as the facts go...as for speculation, it can sure be fun...and sometimes you even get to be right! who knows what the future market holds. i know we certainly got off topic in this thread but its hard not to with all ammo the it industry is fueling such debates as ours. on a final note about intel's monoply case...they are guilty imo, but its also how buisness works. you want to beat your competitors....only trouble is it leaves us the end users with less innovation for more money. nothing like the bully on the play ground is there?
 

spaztic7

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Could you link me this please?
 

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