XPS 435mt / General SSD Install Advice and SATA III (3) Controller ?'s

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dcfoc

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Ok took the plunge today and got a 512gb Crucial M4 SSD -- I have googled these topics for hours and have some specific question for you fellow geeks out there in cyberland.

I have a Studio XPS435 MT i7-920 with 24gb of Ram - mother board is Sata 2. -- Win 7 - 64

1. Should I buy a Sata 3 controller card - or will the Sata 2 that is built in be so fast with the new SSD that it doesn't matter? - I don't mind spenting the $40 for a card if it makes a noticeable difference.

2. If I do get a controller card, should a get a 4 port one and route all sata devices to it? or keep the optical drive (s) plugged into the mother board?

3. Will it know to boot to the controller card? Will it truly be Sata 3 / 6gbs?

Any other advice or parts to get before I start my teardown tonight???

Any potential issues that I haven't considered?

Thank you in advance for any and all advice.
 
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To begin with, replacing a motherboard in your XPS 435MT will require purchasing an OEM Builder OS as the Dell System Software disk only installs on Dell Mobo's.

Second, installing a SSD in the 435MT is not straightforward. There are a few "Catch 22" issues in that regard. TRIM support is absolutely vital with a SSD. Without it the SSD will eventually become as slow or slower than a regular HDD. In order for TRIM to function, the SSD must use an AHCI driver. It also will enable NCQ, giving you all the speed your SSD is capable of over SATA 2.0, which is a max of 3 Gbits/second. A side benefit is that it makes your SATA and eSATA ports hot-plug capable, though not necessarily hot-swap capable. (The difference is hot-plug means you...
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xMichaelC

xMichaelC

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The sata III speed, or lack of, will only impact you in loading the biggest programs/games. Saturated Sata II speeds with an SSD is still very fast and much faster than any mechanical hard drive. I'd prefer an SSD on an Intel sata II port than on a Sata III card with a Marvell or Silicon Image controller, for example.

Plus you need good quality PCI card , which is expensive .. and still suck .. in my opinion .. :)
 
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Hoku

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To begin with, replacing a motherboard in your XPS 435MT will require purchasing an OEM Builder OS as the Dell System Software disk only installs on Dell Mobo's.

Second, installing a SSD in the 435MT is not straightforward. There are a few "Catch 22" issues in that regard. TRIM support is absolutely vital with a SSD. Without it the SSD will eventually become as slow or slower than a regular HDD. In order for TRIM to function, the SSD must use an AHCI driver. It also will enable NCQ, giving you all the speed your SSD is capable of over SATA 2.0, which is a max of 3 Gbits/second. A side benefit is that it makes your SATA and eSATA ports hot-plug capable, though not necessarily hot-swap capable. (The difference is hot-plug means you can add a drive but not remove it, while hot-swap means you can add or remove a drive with the system running.)

Unfortunately, the Intel X58 + ICH10 chipset on the XPS 435MT's mobo is not full featured. Dell limits the chipset's capabilities. While the onboard Intel SATA controllers can support AHCI, they run in IDE mode by default. The BIOS is also limited to say the least, more like crippled actually. In the BIOS, under Advanced Chipset Features > SATA Mode, there is only a choice between IDE or RAID with IDE being the default. However, by selecting RAID for the SATA Mode, AHCI is enabled on all four SATA ports as well as eSATA. Of course, if you enable RAID after your OS is installed, everything on your SSD or HDD will be lost and you will have to reinstall the OS again. So, enable RAID in the 435MT's BIOS before installing the OS on your new SSD.

The next problem you will likely encounter is a failed install of your OS. This is described in the MS Knowledge Base Article 2466753 available here:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2466753

This is a known issue with both Windows 7 and Windows 8. Don't know about Vista though. There are workarounds involving editing the system registry by creating keys, subkeys, and values, as well as workarounds to the workarounds depending on what controller your SSD uses. Assuming at some point you get your system up and running from your SSD, there is one other problem that crops up when you insert a blank optical disk into your burner. Your system will likely either freeze or crash entirely. This is due to your optical drive(s) also running AHCI drivers when they should be using IDE/UDMA. When you select the RAID option for the SATA Mode in the BIOS, all the SATA ports switch over to AHCI. So, before you use your optical drive(s), check in Device Manager to see if you can change the driver for the optical drive's SATA controller in the OS to IDE/UDMA.

In my case, things are even more complicated. When I got my XPS 435MT, it came with Vista Home Premium. Shortly after I got it, I upgraded the OS to Vista Ultimate. Not long after that, I upgraded to Windows 7 Pro. Now I'm about to upgrade to Windows 8 Pro. The problem is that it's not so simple to install an OS from upgrade media to a new blank drive, be it HDD or SSD. I can trick Win 7 into installing with the original Dell Vista Home Premium system software disk in an optical drive, but that doesn't work with the Windows 8 upgrade media. In order to install Win 8 to my new SSD, I must first install either Vista or Win 7 to the same partition. Isn't this fun?
 
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BerndWessels

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Hi Hoku

Thanks for the great explanation. I've got the 435MT and just today installed a new Win7Ultimate on a new Samsung 840 SSD drive.

I put the bios in RAID mode before I started installing.

Then I updated windows with all patches.

At the end I installed the Intel Chipset Driver Software and the Intel Rapid Storage Technology (Raid) - the only one that is available to normal users on the intel support page.

Now when I use the Samsung Magician Software to do the benchmarking and see the drives details, it says that NCQ is enabled but AHCI is not ?!

Now I am confused if AHCI is actually active or not?

Can you help me here?

Thank you and best regards

Bernd



 
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BerndWessels

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Hi Hoku

Thanks for the great explanation. I've got the 435MT and just today installed a new Win7Ultimate on a new Samsung 840 SSD drive.

I put the bios in RAID mode before I started installing.

Then I updated windows with all patches.

At the end I installed the Intel Chipset Driver Software and the Intel Rapid Storage Technology (Raid) - the only one that is available to normal users on the intel support page.

Now when I use the Samsung Magician Software to do the benchmarking and see the drives details, it says that NCQ is enabled but AHCI is not ?!

Now I am confused if AHCI is actually active or not?

Can you help me here?

Thank you and best regards

Bernd



 
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Hoku

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Sounds like you did everything correctly.

While the Intel ICH10R controller used on the 435MT mobo is capable of supporting AHCI, the system BIOS does not. Your only choice in the BIOS is IDE or RAID.

However, by using single disk RAID the core AHCI capabilities such as NCQ and hot swapping are enabled. It may not be ideal but it works and I see much faster data transfer rates than the legacy IDE mode was capable of. Like 10x faster.

This is what Intel recommends:

"Note: If you are using a SATA hard drive, set your BIOS to RAID mode. RAID mode provides the greatest overall flexibility and upgradeability because it allows your system to be RAID ready and enable AHCI."

(Source: http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-015988.htm)

So in summary, if NCQ is enabled then your 435MT is getting the benefits of AHCI. And TRIM works natively in both Win 7 & Win 8. That is about the best you are going to get out of the MT435.

Oh BTW, I was able to mount a 92mm fan in the front of the case. Used an Antec Tri-Cool with the switch dangling outside the case.




 
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BerndWessels

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Thank you very much for the info.

I think 200MB/sec read is OK, even though the disc itself is capable of much more.

Next time I will make sure I get a reasonable future prove system ;)

Best regards
Bernd
 
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john_h

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Hi BerndWessels,
I would like to do the same upgrade on my Dell XPS 435Mt. I currently have one 500GB Drive in my 435MT now , not in RAID mode, but would like to buy a 500GB SSD and replace the drive I have (or keep the drive I have as a 2nd drive). A fresh Windows7 install is perfect for me, I have no problem reinstalling the programs again.

Can you list the steps you went through? From your explanation, I think you did this (but please correct me):

* Get Buy the drive :) I was actually looking at the same Samsung 840 !
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electronics-SATAIII-2-5-Inch-MZ-7TD500BW/dp/B009NHAF3I/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

* It says the Samsung 840 drive is SATAIII, but I see notes in the forum that SATAIII does not work on this machine. Does this drive work anyway (backward compatible or something)? Did you buy anything else to connect the drive to the 435MT? Cables, bracket? Or did the drive fit into the same slot and use the same connectors?


* Get latest BIOS from Dell

-- this is where the process that you used starts getting fuzzy, so I am not sure I have these next steps in the right sequence..

* Boot, and change BIOS setting to use RAID mode.

* When exiting BIOS, did you shutdown to swap drives?

* When you boot up after setting to RAID, which drive was connected? This is the part I am missing in the explanation. I am hoping you already made the switch, and had only the SSD drive connected at this point and just booted from the Windows 7 install CD? Or did you have the old drive connected at this time ?

* drive swap here?

* Install Windows 7 onto SSD drive (the C:\ drive at this point). Was the old drive unhooked at this point?

* Did you ever hook the old drive up and keep it to store other information?


Thank you for sharing




 
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Hoku

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Hi John,

* SATA III is backwards compatible with SATA II, so no worries there.

* You will need to buy a bracket or make your own. Not all brackets will work due to how the drives mount in the 435MT. The bracket needs to have threaded holes in the bottom. This one looks like it will work:
http://www.amazon.com/SILVERSTONE-SDP08-3-5-2-5-Inch-Converter/dp/B002BH3Z8E/ref=pd_sim_pc_2

* If you plan on using your current 500GB HDD you will need a SATA data cable. The power cable should already be available on your PSU. The SATA data cable doesn't need to be very long, a 14" one will be fine. I suggest you get the kind that has locking connectors such as this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-18-Inch-Locking-90-Degree-108783/dp/B009GUXU52/ref=pd_cp_pc_3

There are issues using SSD's in the 435MT relating to the lack of AHCI support in the BIOS. I am using an Intel 330 SSD which uses a SandForce controller. As a result of configuring my system as a single disk RAID setup the sleep mode doesn't work. Other than that it works fine. The Samsung 840 uses a Samsung controller so you may have different issues or no problems at all.

If the batteries on the motherboard are more than 2 years old then replace them. The 435MT mobo takes 2 each CR2032 coin cells. Install + side up.

Now for the tricky part-

Before you do anything backup the data on your current drive. By enabling RAID in the BIOS you will not be able to boot from your existing HDD since it was configured with the BIOS in IDE mode. You can still use it as a second drive but will need to reformat it which will erase everything on it.

When you run a single disk RAID setup you will need to be very careful. Never use Ctrl + I, that's uppercase i. If you do your system will try to build a RAID array which will not work and you will have to reload your OS all over again. You will also need to be careful when you eject any external drives using "Safely Remove Hardware" in Windows. With the BIOS set to RAID, all of your drives are available to eject. So be careful which drive you select.

There are also issues regarding doing a clean install of Windows 7. You didn't specify if you have upgrade media or a full install media. If it's a full install media then you can do a clean install no problem. If it is an upgrade media then you will have to jump through a few hoops. I suggest you read the articles on Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows:
http://winsupersite.com/article/windows-7/clean-install-windows-7-with-upgrade-media-128512

Step 1
Download the applicable drivers for your system from the Dell website. (The Dell Downloads website for the XPS-435MT doesn't have much there.)
For the most part, Win 7 will use up to date drivers for the 435MT.

You should be able to download the following from Intel's website:
* Intel Chipset INF Update Utility
* Intel Storage - Intel Matrix Storage Manager (driver to run the system in RAID)
The 435MT uses the Intel X58 Express Chipset and the Intel ICH10 Controller Hub
.
Copy the relevant drivers etc to a USB stick or burn to optical media.

Step 2
Backup your data on your existing drive if you haven't already.
Place the install media in the optical drive then shutdown the computer.
Remove all cabling from the back of the computer.

Step 3
Before opening the case, press and hold the power button for 30 seconds to bleed the capacitors.

Open the case. Ground yourself to the metal chassis inside the case. Do this frequently as you work to avoid static discharge.
Remove the current drive or disconnect both the data and power cables. You don't want to accidentally build a RAID array by having more than one drive connected. Also, you will be able to reinstall your current drive (as IDE) and boot from it if you have problems with your Samsung SSD or have problems installing and activating the OS.

Install the CMOS batteries on the motherboard. (2 ea CR2032, + side up)

Install the Samsung SSD and connect it to SATA-0.

Step 4
Make connections to the back of the case for power, monitor, keyboard, mouse, and Internet.
Power up the computer. When the Dell Logo appears hit F2.

In BIOS Setup, navigate to "Advanced Chipset Features". Change the SATA Mode to RAID. (IDE by default)
Navigate to "Boot Device Configuration". Select the First Boot Device to be whatever you use for your OS install media. (CD/DVD for optical media)

Save and exit BIOS Setup. Allow the computer to boot from the install media. Select Custom Install. At this point you can create partitions on your SSD if you want to but I would suggest you leave it as one partition. Follow the prompts to install the OS. After entering the Product Key select "Important Updates Only".

Step 5
After the system auto reboots when OS installation is complete it would be a good idea to make sure Windows 7 is activated before proceeding. If not, you may be able to get it to activate simply by installing Win 7 for a second time. You will also need to change the boot order again in the BIOS settings. Select the Samsung SSD as the First Boot Device.

Step 6
Run Windows Update several times to completely install all important updates. It will take a very long time. Reboot the computer.

Step 7
In most cases Win 7 will use the most up to date drivers.
Install the system drivers in the following order:
1) Chipset - I suggest you use the Intel Chipset INF Update Utility available from the Intel website.
2) Intel Storage - Intel Matrix Storage Manager
3) Audio
4) Video
5) Network Interface Card (NIC)
6) Bluetooth - CAB200 (Don't install the icon mgr, it only messes things up)
7) Mice and Keyboards if necessary.

Step 8
Confirm TRIM is enabled in Win 7
Start> All Programs> Accessories> Right click Command Prompt, select "Run as Administrator"
At the command prompt type:
fsutil behavior query DisableDeleteNotify

Press the Enter key. Two results are possible:

DisableDeleteNotify = 0: This indicates that TRIM is enabled and working on the operating system.
DisableDeleteNotify = 1: This means that TRIM is not enabled

By default Win 7 will disable disk defragmentation, Superfetch, ReadyBoost, and prefetch on SSD's but it doesn't hurt to confirm.
See this: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2009/05/05/support-and-q-a-for-solid-state-drives-and.aspx

Step 9
Make sure Win 7 is running okay and your hardware works before you install your original 500GB HDD as a second drive and reformat it.

One other thing,
The original PSU that came with the 435MT is marginal at best. Over time it degrades to a point where it doesn't supply enough power to boot. This will be evident when the system won't start and the power button flickers amber. The green LED on the back of the PSU will still be lit, however it won't supply enough power to boot. So if you haven't replaced the PSU yet keep that in mind.

Good Luck!







 
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john_h

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Hoku,
THANK YOU !!!!

This is exactly what I was looking for!!

I have been traveling far too much lately, and am looking forward to completing all this after I get back ~Thanksgiving!

Samsung has a new drive, but it looks to work just as well for ~$350 500GB:
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electronics-2-5-Inch-Internal-MZ-7TE250BW/dp/B00E3W1726/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1384063087&sr=1-1&keywords=samsung+ssd

I am hoping this upgrade keeps me going for the next few years, so thank you for pointing out other things to do when the case is open.

I'll add the batteries - no problem.

On the PSU, mine seems OK for now. I am thinking of this one from a reputable ebay'er:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/500W-Dell-Studio-XPS-435MT-Core-i7-DPS-360FB-1A-Power-Supply-Replace-Upgrade-/321123623296


I would do a new install from Windows 7 CD. I have two DVD drives in my MT, and notice you mentioned some trouble with existing DVD drives when we flip this the box to RAID from IDE. Should I be looking for new DVD drives as well?


I have a NAS and Acronis I use to image my current 500GB drive. I'll image the new SSD too. I'll convert my old (slow) drive to RAID a month down the road after all is well with the new fast SSD. If I every had to go back, I'll be sure to flip from RAID to IDE before putting in the OLD drive.


Again thank you SOOOOOOO MUUUCCCHHHHH !!!

 
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skyshow1

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So can I install an SSD drive (for OS and applications) and a second drive (for data) in the 435mt? I am currently having some disk issues and am configured for RAID now with two disks installed (from the factory) that act like one disk. I would like to remove both disks, install a new 256GB Samsung 840 Pro series SSD, and a 4 TB hard drive. Is this possible? I have Windows 7 Ultimate, and intend to reload everything from scratch. Thanks in advance for any advice on my situation.
 
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john_h

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It looks possible, I am going to do the same thing, just that my drive sizes are different. Although, if I have RAID enabled....can I really add a second standalone HDD? Hmmm.. Well, I am going to follow Hoku's step by step instructions to get the SSD working, then the last step is to get the original HDD re-hooked up as additional space (non-RAID). I'll let you know how I fare after Thanksgiving.
 
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skyshow1

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FYI, I successfully installed the SSD, which really sped the system up. I was also able to install a second hard drive (4 TB)... this does work with RAID enabled. However, the system was only recognizing it as 1718168 MB (go to Start->Computer, Right Click and select Manage, select Disk Management... you will see the disk there and can format it, but it was not seeing the full capacity of the disk).

To fix this, I ran the "Intel Driver Update Utility" (just google for this), which under RAID listed Current Driver Installed 8.9.0.1023, and Newer Driver Available 11.6.0.1030. Clicking on "Download Now" resulted in a broken link; however, googling "RST 11.6.0.1030" brings you right to the download page. Note the date on this driver is 9/17/2012. I assume newer drivers do not support the X58 chipset etc.. Download the STOR_Win7_8_11.6.0.1030_PV.exe and install it (several reboots required).

Then go back into Disk Manager, right click on the new disk (on the left side), and make sure it is a GPT disk (if you see the selection "Convert to MBR Disk" you know it is). You can then format it and it will have a full 3725.90 GB (or similar) free.

:)
 
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john_h

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Hoku,
Again Thank you !! I have it working !! It is super fast !!

Following your instructions made this SOOO much easier!!


It took a little longer to complete, because while putting this all together my graphics card went caput! Bad timing, right? I thought it was the PSU from your previous note, but after replacing that my graphics card was still wonky (Radeon 3600).

I upgraded(?) to GEforce GT610 with 2GB because it was also a single slot card. I am not sure how anyone can fit a double slot card into this box because of the wires and plugs that would be right against the heatsink/fan on the bottom of the case.

I have a PSU from KDPOWER from Houston. So far, so good, but I am checking on their warranty now. If it is less than 2 years, I may look for something on NewEgg (most of the newegg ones look to be bigger and I really do not want to file down the case to make it fit).

Thank you again !!!!

NOTE: Still waiting to make sure all this works before reformatting my old 500GB drive.
 
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