YAAD -- My best monk ever pwned by the Wizard

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

The Wizard of Yendor hits! You were wearing the Blessed Eyes of the
Overworld. The Wizard of Yendor stole the Blessed Eyes of the
Overworld! The Wizard of Yendor casts a spell at you! Oh no, he's using
the touch of death!
DYWYPI?

OMG. The best Monk I've ever played, level 23, 356hp, -22AC, Polyless,
had the Candelabra. Absolutely crushed by the Wizard and his rotten
item-grab attack, in ONE TURN. Give me back my magic resistance!

Bastard.

*sigh* back to level 1 I go.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Hmmmm... I'd say there needs to be a special case in there to prevent
touch of death on the same turn as a successful item steal. Too many
characters have artifacts that grant magic resistance that get relied
upon. Since the essential benefit of magic resistance is protection
from touch of death, that makes them less useful against quest artifact
thieves.

Unless... was your character fast or very fast by that time, or was he
burdened at all? Can the Wizard get both a theft and touch of death on
the same turn if you're very fast and unburdened?

- John H.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> Unless... was your character fast or very fast by that time, or was
he
> burdened at all? Can the Wizard get both a theft and touch of death
on
> the same turn if you're very fast and unburdened?

I had never found speed boots and very few wishes, so I was just fast.
He had zapped himself with a speed monster wand as soon as I hacked
down the wall.

Many, many conspiring actions there that led to my demise.
 
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On 2005-03-01, Fleshpile <Fleshpile@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had never found speed boots and very few wishes, so I was just fast.
> He had zapped himself with a speed monster wand as soon as I hacked
> down the wall.

How can you end up with very few wishes? You are guaranteed
a wand in the castle-- which means you should be able to get at least
4 wishes + b?oCharging...

--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>
> The problem is that you should *never* rely on a single source of
magic
> resistance, especially if that is one of the things that the Wizard
will
> try to steal. That's just waiting for an accident to happen.

Then why even have magic resistance on the quest artifact? Magic
resistance is available from so few sources that it seems rather cruel
to force the player to wear that cloak/armor or wield that weapon even
when he has it from his QA.

This falls into the category of what I consider over-preparedness.
Like searching every step to make sure you don't find a pit trap.
Other people are perfectly welcome to do it, but if I had to do it to
have a chance of winning then I'd just as soon give up the game.


> I consider magic resistance provided by a quest artifact a nice
backup
> to have in the *extremely* rare case that a nymph would somehow get a
> hit in.

That's less likely than even the Wiz stealing the quest artifact, using
touch of death right after, and having it work all in one move.
(Though Fleshpile really should have had those speed boots on.)

Actually, it might be cool if nymphs weren't so incredibly harmless
later in the game -- I've never, in my years of playing the game, been
stolen from by a nymph after Medusa. (Not that they're all that common
by that time.)


> You should get magic resistance from the cloak or dragon scales: the
> wizard won't steal these.

I've already bored you guys with my old YANI concerning a Ring vs Death
Magic -- to me, that would make a more suitable backup than having
multiple sources of magic resistance.

> --
> Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).
>
> The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
> can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

Cool sig by the way!
 
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John H. wrote:

> Hmmmm... I'd say there needs to be a special case in there to prevent
> touch of death on the same turn as a successful item steal. Too many
> characters have artifacts that grant magic resistance that get relied
> upon. Since the essential benefit of magic resistance is protection
> from touch of death, that makes them less useful against quest
> artifact thieves.

The problem is that you should *never* rely on a single source of magic
resistance, especially if that is one of the things that the Wizard will
try to steal. That's just waiting for an accident to happen.

I consider magic resistance provided by a quest artifact a nice backup
to have in the *extremely* rare case that a nymph would somehow get a
hit in.

You should get magic resistance from the cloak or dragon scales: the
wizard won't steal these.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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Fleshpile wrote:

> I had never found speed boots and very few wishes, so I was just fast.
> He had zapped himself with a speed monster wand as soon as I hacked
> down the wall.

You met the Wizard, so you must have found the Castle wand. If you don't
have speed boots yet when you get to the Castle, this should be your
first wish after the two blessed scrolls of charging. Speed is
essential, more than anything else except magic resistance.

Speed will save your life many times.

What *did* you use your wishes on?

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> John H. wrote:
>
> > Hmmmm... I'd say there needs to be a special case in there to prevent
> > touch of death on the same turn as a successful item steal. Too many
> > characters have artifacts that grant magic resistance that get relied
> > upon. Since the essential benefit of magic resistance is protection
> > from touch of death, that makes them less useful against quest
> > artifact thieves.
>
> The problem is that you should *never* rely on a single source of magic
> resistance, especially if that is one of the things that the Wizard will
> try to steal. That's just waiting for an accident to happen.
>
> I consider magic resistance provided by a quest artifact a nice backup
> to have in the *extremely* rare case that a nymph would somehow get a
> hit in.
>
> You should get magic resistance from the cloak or dragon scales: the
> wizard won't steal these.

The bad point is, for monks dragon scale is not an option (*). That only
left the cloak, but monks are also spell caster (at least basic in every
school) and may thus make great usage of a robe rather than a cloak. Even
with max stats, +5 helm of brilliance, robe and basic everywere, I had
still 33% failure for level 7 spell (that is cancelation, I hadn't finger
of death). And I think I needed the robe to have 0% for level 6 (and
create familair + polymorph make your life easier).

Well, I guess those are not as much needed for the run where you can (and
should) rely more on wands and charm monster should be sufficient as a
spell to cast.

(*) And also, their only way to get reflection is from an amulet, thus
preventing any real use of life saving.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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On 3/1/05 6:20 PM, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> The problem is that you should *never* rely on a single source of magic
> resistance, especially if that is one of the things that the Wizard will
> try to steal. That's just waiting for an accident to happen.

For this reason, I think that artifact-stealing is overpowered (against
the player, I mean). It's part of the reason that so many games end up
with so similar ascension kits and strategies: MR is almost absolutely
necessary, and it's only reliably gotten by two items, one of which
practically must take up either your armor or cloak slot. If players
could rely on MR from an artifact, it would open up equipment
possibilities for the later game. It would also make MR from an artifact
useful, rather than the practically pointless addition it is now.

--
Kevin Wayne

"I came to Casablanca for the waters."
"Waters? What waters? We're in the desert?"
"I was misinformed."
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>
> Hey, I'm not on the Dev Team...! I think the magic resistance on
quest
> artifacts is just a nice addition to some of them (not all have it),
but
> nothing to rely on. Most quest artifacts confer some useless
intrinsic,
> and I consider it being magic resistance a small bonus.

Heh, didn't mean to imply that you were. It just that sometimes I have
to wonder what they're thinking. (Though of course they aren't a
monolithic entity, anyway.)


> *All* useful properties are available from few sources. Take for
example
> reflection or free action: the first needs an amulet, or body armour
(or
> the ranger quest artifact), the latter *needs* a ring.


This is obviously true for an arbitrary value of "few," but there are
plenty of intrinsics that are available from a large number of sources.
Poison resistance is as essential as magic resistance, comes from
eating many corpses, wearing the amulet, wearing the ring, eating the
ring, some characters get it as they grow and some have it out of the
box, and it's also available from crowning. (I think gods also
sometimes give you a miscellaneous intrinsic upon prayer, but I haven't
seen that for a while.) Fire resistance is similar, except there's no
amulet that grants it. Luck is harder, but that's offset by the fact
that you don't have to *wear* its item to get it.

(Note: I _think_ there's a Ring of Poison Resistance, someone check on
this.)

Free Action, while useful, isn't absolutely *necessary* like magic
resistance is (or speed boots are), so if it's never even generated in
a game it's no biggie. Reflection is also not an essential
characteristic, especially if you genocide/are wary of black dragons
and are careful with lightning.


> If you really want some of the intrinsics, you need to make choices,
and
> those choices are deliberately scarce.

I understand this argument for most intrinsics, but it fails here
because magic resistance isn't a real choice -- it's so massively
useful due to polytraps destroying armor (polycontrol is the only other
complete protection from this), and one of its benefits is almost
required due to Touch of Death and Destroy Armor users. ToD makes it a
special case due to the Wizard popping up repeatedly in the endgame,
who is always generated in melee range, and sometimes with friends.


> Note my use of *extremely* above. But even an *extremely* small
chance
> will once in a while pop up, and I don't want *that* once to occur
with
> a character of mine.

Hmmm... (late-game Nymph theft) might actually make the foregone ascent
(and ascension) more intersting.

- John H.
 
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In article <1109749206.504861.51050@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
John H. <JohnWH@gmail.com> wrote:

>Then why even have magic resistance on the quest artifact? Magic
>resistance is available from so few sources that it seems rather cruel
>to force the player to wear that cloak/armor or wield that weapon even
>when he has it from his QA.

My current character is nearing 150k turns, and still the only source of
MR is from his GDSM. I've seen pretty much every item there is to see,
but not a COMR. I don't think there's anything else for this character
that confers MR. OK, so he could wish for Magicbane.

I'll be polypiling a bunch of stuff soon, and a COMR should come out of
that. Not that I need it.
 
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On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:10:14 -0800, Fleshpile wrote:

> The Wizard of Yendor hits! You were wearing the Blessed Eyes of the
> Overworld. The Wizard of Yendor stole the Blessed Eyes of the Overworld!
> The Wizard of Yendor casts a spell at you! Oh no, he's using the touch
> of death!
> DYWYPI?

Something like this happened also to my latest monk. Rodney tried the
touch of death once, but 'luckily it didn't work' (MC=3 from the robe?),
then he disintegrated my boots of speed before I managed to kill him.
Being that lucky, the monk ascended. Next time I won't be trusting solely
on MR conferred by ones quest artifact (I had a +5 [MR in the BoH..).

--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> What *did* you use your wishes on?

Well, I went for a Helm of Brilliance, Cloak of Magic Resistance, Dex
Gloves, Bag of Holding, and dust-zapped it for a magic marker (it was a
2-charge wand). I happened to have +5 high boots at the time as my only
armor at +5, hence why I didn't wish for Speed Boots. Incidentally, my
last ascension, a Priest, finished with no Speed Boots. I know they're
important, but at the time, it seemed an impractical wish.

After the castle, I went back up and did the Quest, got the Eyes, and
swapped out the cloak of MR for my +4 Fixed Robe. I was casting a whole
lot (ID, Magic Mapping, Detect Treasure, Light, Magic Missile,
Fireball, etc) in Gehennom and needed my casting chance low.

I don't think I did a bad thing here. Had I used the cloak as opposed
to the robe, I would have had a lot more trouble maintaining my spell
points, and doubled up on an intrinsic that doesn't stack. *shrug*

I've never had the Wizard steal anything from me besides the Amulet of
Yendor before this.
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> John H. wrote:
>> Then why even have magic resistance on the quest artifact?
>
> Hey, I'm not on the Dev Team...! I think the magic resistance on quest
> artifacts is just a nice addition to some of them (not all have it), but
> nothing to rely on. Most quest artifacts confer some useless intrinsic,
> and I consider it being magic resistance a small bonus.

I've had a few games where the quest artifact has been my first source of
MR. In these cases, it was definitely better than a small bonus, even
though I eventually acquired other sources for the ascension run. I did
this recently with a wishless archaeologist (I didn't set out for a
wishless conduct, but I didn't get any wishes before the castle, and I had
most things I needed by then anyway. I never found a magic whistle that
entire game, and I only managed to replace the shield of reflection with an
amulet after some polypiling, long after I had found at least one of every
other amulet.)

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> John H. wrote:
>> (Note: I _think_ there's a Ring of Poison Resistance, someone check on
>> this.)
>
> There is, and there also is the amulet versus poison.

Annoyingly, I don't think I've ever identified either of these items before
I've managed to get the intrinsic. I wonder if this has to do with my
playing style, or if most people have this experience?

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover
 
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"Fleshpile" <Fleshpile@gmail.com> writes:

> The Wizard of Yendor hits! You were wearing the Blessed Eyes of the
> Overworld. The Wizard of Yendor stole the Blessed Eyes of the
> Overworld! The Wizard of Yendor casts a spell at you! Oh no, he's using
> the touch of death!
> DYWYPI?

Sounds familiar to me. I started to carry a MR backup after a
similar incident. An alternate quest artifact or a simple CoMR
do the trick.

Best,
Jakob
 
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Douglas Henke wrote:

> Trying to ascend without MC3 is tough and tedious, but do-able.
> (Pre-caching bunches of holy water at many strategic points would make
> it less painful.)

I've ascended with a cloak of displacement (MC2) a number of times, and
haven't found it particularly tedious; including with my recent lawful
arch., who got mysterious-forcetized at least 16 times (that part was
tedious!)

> YANI: Anti-magic vest. Occupies "shirt" slot. Provides MC3, MR, no AC
> bonus. Cannot be enchanted or fixed.

Why not fixed? What difference would this make?

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
>The bad point is, for monks dragon scale is not an option (*).

For a human monk, XL14, grand master martial arts, maxed luck, wearing
+5 GoDex and GDSM and carrying a luckstone:

Maxed physical stats, including +5 GoDex: +12 to hit. (3 from Strength
18/**, 9 from Dex 23)

Maxed luck, including luckstone: +13 to hit.

Wearing body armour: -20 to hit.

Experience level 14: +14 to hit.

Grand Master in martial arts: +7 to hit.

This gives a total to-hit modifier of +26. This is sufficient to hit
any monster in the game with maximum reliability, more-or-less. This
must be some strange new meaning of the phrase "not an option" of which
I was not previously aware.

(If you use a weapon, the skill bonus is smaller but you get the
weapon's enchantment bonus.)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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John H. wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

>> The problem is that you should *never* rely on a single source of
>> magic resistance, especially if that is one of the things that the
>> Wizard will try to steal. That's just waiting for an accident to
>> happen.

> Then why even have magic resistance on the quest artifact?

Hey, I'm not on the Dev Team...! I think the magic resistance on quest
artifacts is just a nice addition to some of them (not all have it), but
nothing to rely on. Most quest artifacts confer some useless intrinsic,
and I consider it being magic resistance a small bonus.

> Magic resistance is available from so few sources that it seems rather
> cruel to force the player to wear that cloak/armor or wield that
> weapon even when he has it from his QA.

*All* useful properties are available from few sources. Take for example
reflection or free action: the first needs an amulet, or body armour (or
the ranger quest artifact), the latter *needs* a ring.

If you really want some of the intrinsics, you need to make choices, and
those choices are deliberately scarce.

>> I consider magic resistance provided by a quest artifact a nice
>> backup to have in the *extremely* rare case that a nymph would
>> somehow get a hit in.

> That's less likely than even the Wiz stealing the quest artifact,
> using touch of death right after, and having it work all in one move.

Note my use of *extremely* above. But even an *extremely* small chance
will once in a while pop up, and I don't want *that* once to occur with
a character of mine.

> Actually, it might be cool if nymphs weren't so incredibly harmless
> later in the game -- I've never, in my years of playing the game, been
> stolen from by a nymph after Medusa. (Not that they're all that
> common by that time.)

I think your last observation best explains why: when you're high level,
deep in Gehennom, a nymph's level is too low to be generated with a good
chance.

> I've already bored you guys with my old YANI concerning a Ring vs
> Death Magic -- to me, that would make a more suitable backup than
> having multiple sources of magic resistance.

>> The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
>> can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

> Cool sig by the way!

It's not my quote, but thanks anyway!

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

begin quoting John H. <JohnWH@gmail.com> (1 Mar 2005 12:54:55 -0800):
> Hmmmm... I'd say there needs to be a special case in there to prevent
> touch of death on the same turn as a successful item steal. Too many
> characters have artifacts that grant magic resistance that get relied
> upon. Since the essential benefit of magic resistance is protection
> from touch of death, that makes them less useful against quest artifact
> thieves.

It's too dangerous to rely upon stealable artifacts for MR anyway when
the wizard is around. Perhaps it's ok with a big enough stack of "oLS
but that's a bit of a waste of the amulet slot.

Quest artifacts of other classes have an important advantage here that
they cannot be stolen this way.

> Unless... was your character fast or very fast by that time, or was he
> burdened at all? Can the Wizard get both a theft and touch of death on
> the same turn if you're very fast and unburdened?

The Wizard has two attacks performed in sequence; nothing can happen
between them, as with all monsters with multiple attacks.

For most monsters with spell attacks, the spell attack is last, except
for Demogorgon, seemingly to discourage polymorphing into a cockatrice.

Hmm, what happens if a monster touch-of-deaths you when you're
polymorphed into a cockatrice? ;-)

--
Jilles Tjoelker
jilles AT stack DOT nl
 
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John H. wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

>> *All* useful properties are available from few sources.

> This is obviously true for an arbitrary value of "few," but there are
> plenty of intrinsics that are available from a large number of
> sources. Poison resistance is as essential as magic resistance,
> comes from eating many corpses, wearing the amulet, wearing the ring,
> eating the ring, some characters get it as they grow and some have it
> out of the box, and it's also available from crowning.

This is probably why poison resistance is often taken for granted, while
magic resistance is not. Only when you don't have it after a few
thousand turns is when you're going to notice something's missing...

> Luck is harder, but that's offset
> by the fact that you don't have to *wear* its item to get it.

I think you have to wield the Tsurugi to get the luck effect, but I'm
not sure. Carrying the Tsurugi might also be enough.

> (Note: I _think_ there's a Ring of Poison Resistance, someone check on
> this.)

There is, and there also is the amulet versus poison.

> Free Action, while useful, isn't absolutely *necessary* like magic
> resistance is (or speed boots are), so if it's never even generated in
> a game it's no biggie. Reflection is also not an essential
> characteristic, especially if you genocide/are wary of black dragons
> and are careful with lightning.

Neither speed boots nor magic resistance are *absolutely* necessary,
although I woulnd't dare try an ascension run without magic resistance.

An ascension without speed boots (if you have intrinsic speed) is very
well possible, and there are accounts of people ascending without magic
resistance.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> writes:
> *All* useful properties are available from few sources. Take for example
> reflection or free action: the first needs an amulet, or body armour (or
> the ranger quest artifact), the latter *needs* a ring.

For completeness, I feel obliged to mention that reflection can be got
from a shield as well. (Not that we'd dream of doing anything that'd
get in the way of #twoweaponing...)

I was about to post something to the effect of free action requiring
a ring but not a ring _slot_. However, a quick FAQ-check and wizmode
verification reveals that this is not, in fact, the case.

NetHack tries to force tradeoffs between various useful things. To the
extent that it succeeds (you can still get nearly all of the useful
attributes and intrinsics simultaneously, if you are careful) I think
this not a bad thing.

I don't really see the choices as being driven by scarcity -- after
all, you can wish for stuff and wishes aren't especially scarce. In
fact, they're one of the few things of which you're _guaranteed_ a
source.

But I do see MR (and MC) as being qualitatively different than most
useful characteristics. If you lack reflection, you still probably
have a way to resist whatever it was that would have been
reflected. Failing that, having lots of HP will generally do. Floating
Eye Resistance (aka free action) is nice, but mostly in the sense that
it allows you to get away with careless play.

Fire resistance is absolutely essential (yes?) but there are about
a jillion ways to get it; indeed, you'd probably have to be actively
avoiding it to not have it by the time you need it. (If you're me,
you'll have been crowned -- and been unhappy about it -- long before.)

Trying to ascend without MC3 is tough and tedious, but do-able.
(Pre-caching bunches of holy water at many strategic points would make
it less painful.) Ascending without MR is improbable, and (IMHO) a
matter of sheer luck when it does happen. There are just too many
high-probability instakills for which MR is the chief or only remedy.

YANI: Anti-magic vest. Occupies "shirt" slot. Provides MC3, MR, no AC
bonus. Cannot be enchanted or fixed. Locks current MP at
zero. (Optional: Cannot be wished for or appear as the result of a
polymorph. Destroys BoH and itself when placed inside BoH, or in the
same container as a BoH.)
 
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"John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com> writes:
> [...] magic resistance isn't a real choice -- it's so massively
> useful due to polytraps destroying armor (polycontrol is the only
> other complete protection from this) [...]

Unchanging (per " of ditto) will keep your armor intact through a
polytrap. Granted, that's of little comfort when a roving squad of
Master Liches disintegrates the lot (as a prelude to cursing your
entire inventory, then ripping your limbs off and beating you with the
soggy ends) because you lacked MR.
 
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On 3/2/05 10:23 AM, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> I think you have to wield the Tsurugi to get the luck effect, but I'm
> not sure. Carrying the Tsurugi might also be enough.

From art1-313.txt:

The Tsurugi of Muramasa
(lawful Samurai tsurugi)
Carried
Acts as luckstone.
Wielded
+d8 damage to all monsters.
5% chance (based on your to-hit roll) of extra damage:
Monsters engulfing you are instantly killed.
Damage is doubled against big monsters.
All other monsters are instantly killed.
Invoked
No effect.
>
> Neither speed boots nor magic resistance are *absolutely* necessary,
> although I woulnd't dare try an ascension run without magic resistance.
>
> An ascension without speed boots (if you have intrinsic speed) is very
> well possible, and there are accounts of people ascending without magic
> resistance.
>
I've ascended wearing jumping boots instead of speed, but iirc, the
magic-resistanceless ascensions necessarily involved perma-polyself into
an undead creature.

--
Kevin Wayne

"I came to Casablanca for the waters."
"Waters? What waters? We're in the desert?"
"I was misinformed."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:
> > YANI: Anti-magic vest. Occupies "shirt" slot. Provides MC3, MR, no AC
> > bonus. Cannot be enchanted or fixed.
>
> Why not fixed? What difference would this make?

Not much, except in pathological cases. (Then again, ask the next
poster of YAAP why they fooproofed their shirt.)

It's just what's know colloquially as "adding insult to injury", IMHO
the conerstone of any good nethack feature.

Did I mention that dropping an anti-magic vest on an altar destroys
both (and annoys the altar's patron)? Well, it does.
 
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