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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> Klaus Kassner wrote:
>
>>Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>>
>>>Klaus Kassner wrote:
>
>
>>>One would be enough, if you also had 15 potions of gain level, to
>>>escape Gehennom in one go.
>
>
>>Good idea... So you have to acquire 15 potions of gain level first.
>
>
> No problem at all. In my latest parked game, I had only played about
> 120.000 turns (not much for my way of playing), and already easily
> accumulated that amount.
In a "normal" game, it would be a non-negligible delay. As I said, I
would not mind extinctionists (who play on the order of 400000 turns),
to accumulate this kind of thing. If you linger in the dungeon that
long, you might as well collect rewards for your patience.
>>>>That is, you would be able to go on the quest without seeing your
>>>>quest leader first, because no mysterious force would prevent you
>>>>from descending the staircase. Would render some hitherto
>>>>unwinnable games winnable again.
> I don't think the Dev Team has built in that provision without a reason.
> The Quest leader allows you to go as a sort of reward, I believe. He has
> farther plans with you, but he'll only tell you after you bring him the
> amulet, because he has to be sure you're built from the right wood.
That does not quite concur with the way most quest leaders justify
letting you keep the quest artifact.
Furthermore, you can kill your Quest leader afterwards without the same
penalty. You can also convert without the same penalty.
In my opinion, this is not a provision built into the game by the Dev
team, rather an accidental side effect. As far as I am concerned, there
is no need to render it impossible to put the silver bell and the other
unique items from going into a bag of holding to prevent them from
blowing up. If a player is not careful enough to avoid this or to keep
them outside by himself, let him lose the game this way. However,
conversions before the quest can happen to inexperienced players early
in the game without their knowing that the game has become unwinnable.
>>We are talking about different ways out. I think preventing things to
>>happen by "mysterious forces" without any rationale behind, is an easy
>>way out of a situation that would require more detailed reasoning and,
>>maybe, programming.
> I can go with you a long way, here. Nevertheless, I think the rationale
> shouldn't be sought in "logical" explanations, but in game balance.
Right. Logic is somewhat limited anyway in the game
🙂.
Nevertheless, I don't think game balance would suffer a lot by this
YANI. At least, if you switch from the original potion-based
realization to one based on an amulet that disintegrates after use (and
may have bad alternative effects if cursed).
> What I would like is that the no-teleport levels are only non-teleport
> while the Named Nemesis of that level is still alive. That Nemesis would
> be responsible for maintaining the mysterious force that prevents you
> from teleporting. It would also explain why some creatures can still
> teleport to the upstairs to heal.
> Not sure what to do with the Castle, though, since there is no creature
> there that could qualify for Nemesis (or you'd have to give one of the
> liches that status).
No, since that lich has quite a chance of already being genocided once
you hit the Castle, I would not do that. I would just have different
mechanisms of suppressing teleportation, the one of the Castle
remaining, because it is "mechanical", the one based on the action of
demon lords or princes vanishing with their demise. With appropriate
messages. On the Castle level: "You feel invisible walls rising about
you, thwarting your feeble effort of teleporting." On a lair level:
"You feel an evil mind in command of this place. Nervously, you give up
your effort to teleport." Or make it more forceful, as you like. On
the quest home level: "You feel the good powers have regained enough
strength to master control of this area. You'll need allowance of
<quest leader> to teleport." And once, he/she has given it to you,
either by sending you to the quest or after you have retrieved the quest
artifact, you can of course teleport there. On the rogue quest goal:
"This place is well-secured. You cannot concentrate to control your
teleport." And so on...
On the other hand, the logic between which quest goals are no-teleport
levels and which ones aren't has escaped me so far, with a few
exceptions such as the rogue quest. Also, I agree that on a fire giant
level (like Lord Surtur's) teleportation inhibition is not likely, but
why it should be present on the samurai's quest goal is beyond my
grasp... The samurai were not particularly magic-gifted, were they?
>>I would not mind abolishing the amulet of life saving either. But I
>>think such a nonsensical thing like the "mysterious force", without
>>in-game explanation should be beatable.
> What would stop a player from just killing his Quest Leader? These
> unlogical things sort of keep a player in line (makes him stick to his
> alignment), at least temporarily.
What does stop him now? (After the quest, I mean.) I don't see any
interest in killing him. If you give him something desirable the player
wants, then the question would make sense. If you could not keep the
quest artifact without killing him, for example. That would be a
difficult choice...
>>If it helps getting out of Gehennom fast, that's only to the good.
> I don't think the Dev Team would agree here (and I don't, either). The
> force was (I think) meant for two purposes: (1) keeping players in
> Gehennom *longer*, so the Wizard has more chance of showing up while
> you're still deep in the Dungeon, and (2) creating somewhat more variety
> between the alignments.
The variety aspect is negligible. I hardly note any difference, because
I don't keep track of how often the "mysterious force" entered into
action. To allow the wizard appearing more often, it would be
sufficient to increase his resurrection frequency. Why should he appear
more often while you are still deep in the dungeon? Monster difficulty?
I don't think it depends on the depth anymore at that point, in any
case that could be cured. Your inability to pray in Gehennom? If you
depend on that, once you are outside, you are not equipped for an ascension.
In fact, there is one agreeable trait to the "mysterious force" in
Gehennom. It helps structuring the end game. I usually take some
breath after having gotten out of Gehennom; one more stage accomplished.
And half the way up done. So for that reason, I might not like to see
it disappear - it gives you a sense of additional danger in Gehennom,
keeping your senses sharp, helping you to survive. Indeed, I believe
abolishing it might result in *more* stupid deaths, not fewer. In
slashem, the issue is different, because Gehennom is much shorter, so
the "mysterious force" would have a much smaller effect anyway.
Gehennom is much more dangerous (or appears so) on the way down, and the
way up is only a third of the whole way. Also, I believe you cannot
teleport at all in slashem once you have the amulet.
> I can only think of these two reasons for the mysterious force, and
> don't suppose that the Dev Team, by introducing your proposed potion,
> will undo those carefully introduced effects.
Well, I have given you a third, and possibly more viable one. My
proposed amulet would not undo those effects; with the potion one could
equally avoid them, as I pointed out.
>>But in any case, here one could also take "balancing" - in your sense
>>- measures, by having the mysterious force kick in again, if you use
>>the effect of the potion more than once or twice in the period the
>>potion is supposed to act. Or make it an amulet that self-destroys
>>after having done its effect.
> I think that's not the way potions work, that would be more something a
> scroll. I think potions should work on your metabolism, while scrolls
> effect the big bad world outside of you.
The potion would in fact act on your metabolism, because it would make
you strong enough to overpower the "mysterious force". However, I think
changing the YANI to an amulet would be preferable.
> Same difference should exist between scrolls and wands, if I had it my
> way: scrolls for general effects, wands for directional effects. For
> examples, I think that enlightenment should be a potion only, light a
> scroll only, and secret door detection a scroll only as well.
Reducing variety...
But that is an interesting way of making things more "logical".
>>>You might just as well abolish the mysterious force completely;
>>I would be in favor of that. For example, one could put the staircase
>>to the quest in a locked room to be opened only by a key that your
>>quest leader gives you. This would allow to avoid the silly means of
>>a "mysterious force" in that case. Although I think that then you
>>should be able to get at the key by sufficient ingenuity even if you
>>have converted yourself.
> I do agree with you here. Still, it would open the possibility to kill
> your quest leader and get the key off his or her dead body. To counter
> that you could, for example, have him or her conjure that key out of
> thin air instead.
Or he might simply not wear it on his body. In many quests, if not all,
there is a chest next to the quest leader. That chest could contain the
key and would be opened only by him. The PC would be unable to open it
with a key, pick, etc. and if he tries to force it open, it would
explode like a bag of holding. Moreover, once you kill your quest
leader, all the quest friendlies become hostile, and if you kill them
you suffer the usual penalties for killing formerly peaceful humans.
>>For no-teleport levels one would have to find s.th. different as a
>>reason (i.e. only the message would change). For the mysterious force
>>in Gehennom, well, in slashem it is not there, so why not abolish it
>>in nethack, too. It does not add anything but annoyance to the game.
> Again, I don't agree. I am not bothered at all by the game taking a few
> minutes more: my games usually last several weeks anyway.
I did not say, it adds time. I said it adds annoyance. (My statement
"it does not add anything but annoyance" was certainly exaggerated.)
You have a different perception of Gehennom than most posters, and I am
probably closer to you in this than many of them, because I also don't
consider Gehennom *that* boring. The maze levels are more boring than a
regular dungeon level, but I still tend to explore them fully to find
more useful things. My games are not as long as yours but usually
between 90000 and 110000 turns to ascension. Nevertheless, I have the
feeling that most players tend to find Gehennom more a tedium than fun.
It is mostly the way down that is problematic, but I don't think many
of them would find some shortcuts on the way up a disadvantage either.
>>if there is a spring that confers immortality when you drink from it
>>there must also be one that removes it when you do so...
> In a D&D campaign on Terry Pratchett's Disc World I once played in,
> there was also a fountain of youth. We all drank from it, and the next
> morning, we were all nine to twelve year olds...
The Borges spring is not one of youth. It makes you immortal in the
sense that you cannot die and you cannot hurt yourself. Your current
state is conserved. One of the immortals falls into a pit and does not
get out there for sixty years, suffering heat from the burning sun,
hunger not having to eat, and so on. But he cannot die and has to
suffer until he is finally saved on the first day of rain in several
tens of years. The hero, originally a Roman legionary, realizes that he
has finally accomplished his quest for the spring of mortality, in the
eighteenth century, when he hurts himself touching the thorns of a rose.
--
Klaus Kassner
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