YAVP

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1. 4948464 Bob the Boxer (level 27, 266/279 (287) HPs)
Began as a Ghoul Fighter on Aug 6, 2004.
Was the Champion of Makhleb.
Escaped with the Orb
... and 47 runes (of 14 types) on Sept 10, 2004!
The game lasted 1 day, 01:56:58 (181471 turns).


YAVP: Bob the Ghoul. I hadn't played a ghoul before, and I hadn't played
a pure fighter-type for ages, so I thought it would be fun. This winner
was only the second Bob the Ghoul I started: the first one died
embarassingly (his potion of levitation ran out while trying to get into
the wasp nest in the Hive and he drowned .

The long playtime is because I used Bob for light relief: whenever I got
bored working I'd drag him out and spend ten minutes rampaging through
Pandemonium. I eventually got too bored with this and went for the win:
this was by far the easiest Zot I've ever done. I wandered in, cast
Haste, and beat everything up. An orb of fire took me below 100hp once,
but once I'd finished it off and eaten its dragon companion I was back
up to full hp and ready to beat up the rest of the Orb Guardians.

Ghouls make the easiest Pandemonium-clearers of any race I've tried. The
innate poison, cold, negative energy and mutation resistance means that
(a) you don't have to wear an amulet of resist mutation, and (b) you've
got much more latitude choosing other armour and jewellery for
resistances. Moreover, ghouls are Torment-resistant (yeehah!). Bob was
resistant to everything for a large part of the game.

Bob concentrated on fighting skills until the mid-game, when he worked a
bit on getting enough spell skills to get the utility spells up and
working reliably (mostly Divinations and the Enchantment/Air spells).
Lots of xp got dumped into spells in Pandemonium once Fighting and
Unarmed were at level 27: Bob was going to try and get Conjurations to 27
as well but got bored (you need a *lot* of xp to raise a skill with the
totals that Bob had).

No kill list, I'm afraid; I haven't got around to downloading the
patched versions...

Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.

Bob the Boxer (Ghoul)
(Level 27 Fighter)

Play time: 1 day, 01:57:15 Number of turns: 181471

Experience : 27/5627131
Strength 31 Dexterity 9 Intelligence 14

>>> Upgrades on Int mostly, with a few points on Dex to get it above the
>>> magic insta-death 8

Hit Points : 266/279 (287) Magic Points : 45

>>> Rotted a bit on the way out, and couldn't carry any healing potions.

AC : 38 Evasion : 17 Shield : 0

>>> It was higher than this, but I forgot to put my buckler back on .

GP : 9913

You escaped.
You worship Makhleb.
Makhleb is exalted by your worship.

>>> So he should be, given the number of sould I gave him.

You are encumbered.

>>> That's an understatement. I only managed to climb the exit stairs by
>>> quaffing a potion of might and casting Fly .

You are not hungry.

Inventory:
Hand weapons
u - the cursed +6,+6 Sword of Cerebov (2000 gold)
Eerie flames cover its twisted blade.
It has a curse placed upon it.
L - the +7,+7 Sceptre of Asmodeus (1500 gold)
It carries some of the powers of the arch-fiend Asmodeus.

R - the +4,+4 Staff of Dispater (1200 gold)
This legendary item can unleash the fury of Hell.

Armour
a - a +7 ice dragon armour (worn) (3667 gold)

>>> Found early on, worn the rest of the game. A normal dragon armour
>>> would have been better, but I didn't meet a single dragon until Zot,
>>> and by then I didn't care.

d - the +0 cloak "Hygiler Med" (worn) (169 gold)
It affects your evasion (+1).
It affects your strength (+1).
It lets you levitate.

>>> No really nice cloaks this game.

f - the +2 buckler of Responsibility (442 gold)
It insulates you from electricity.

o - the +3 helm of Conservation (474 gold)
It makes you much more stealthy.
It lets you turn invisible.

E - the +2 pair of boots "Gufinow" (704 gold)
It affects your evasion (+5).
It greatly protects you from fire.
It protects you from cold.

>>> Worn for much of the game. Swapped for Space when I started casting
>>> more spells.

M - the +3 buckler "Uxyxeqe" (334 gold)

O - the +3 pair of boots of Weirdness (438 gold)
It affects your dexterity (+3).
It makes you much less stealthy.

Q - the +1 pair of boots of Space (worn) (546 gold)
It affects your intelligence (+4).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+3).
It protects you from fire.
It protects you from poison.

W - the +3 helmet of Hairiness (worn) (418 gold)
It affects your accuracy (+4).

>> I had a couple of +2 bucklers of protection, as well.

Comestibles
q - 3 royal jellies (360 gold)
Jewellery

>>> These are only the good ones: several dozen more artifact rings and
>>> amulets were left behind:

c - the ring of Gyb Bot Kij (651 gold)
This ring increases or decreases the physical strength of its wearer,
to a
degree dependent on its power.
It affects your strength (+5).
It makes you susceptible to cold.
It partially protects you from negative energy.
It lets you turn invisible.
It lets you blink.

m - the ring of Limitation (98 gold)
This ring occasionally exerts its power to randomly translocate its
wearer
to another place, and can be deliberately activated for the same
effect.
It affects your evasion (+3).

n - the ring of Shadows (931 gold)
This powerful ring can be activated to hide its wearer from the view
of
others, but increases the speed of his or her metabolism greatly
while
doing so.
It affects your evasion (+4).
It affects your accuracy (-3).
It partially protects you from negative energy.
It makes you more stealthy.
It enhances your eyesight.

s - the ring of Glory (490 gold)
This ring provides protection from heat and fire.
It affects your AC (+6).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (-1).
It protects you from poison.
It lets you turn invisible.
It glows with mutagenic radiation.

>>> The nice thing about this is that ghouls can't mutate, so the glow
>>> wasn't a problem. I didn't wear this one anyway on principle: who
>>> wants a glowing ghoul?

t - the ring of Filth (455 gold)
This ring provides protection from cold.
It protects you from fire.
It partially protects you from negative energy.
It lets you teleport.

v - the ring of Gonufufyminu (413 gold)
This ring protects its wearer from the loss of their strength,
dexterity
and intelligence.
It affects your AC (+5).
It affects your accuracy (+3).

w - the ring of Fun (504 gold)
This ring brings its wearer more in contact with the powers of fire.
He or
she gains resistance to heat and can use fire magic more effectively,
but
becomes more vulnerable to the effects of cold.
It affects your strength (+1).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (-3).
It lets you blink.

y - the amulet of Yhedunufoc (280 gold)
This amulet protects its wearer from some forms of mental confusion.

>>> Why did I keep this? Oh well.

A - the ring of the Eternal Fruit (448 gold)
This ring allows its wearer to hover above the floor.
It affects your AC (+2).
It affects your strength (+3).

B - the amulet of Unemochypnume (385 gold)
This amulet enables its wearer to attempt to enter a state of berserk
rage,
and increases their chance of successfully doing so. It also
partially
protects the user from passing out when coming out of that rage.
It greatly protects you from cold.

>>> Unfortunately ghouls can't go berserk.

C - the ring "R Covimeber Co" (546 gold)
This ring increases or decreases the physical strength of its wearer,
to a
degree dependent on its power.
It affects your strength (+4).
It affects your AC (+2).
It affects your evasion (+4).

D - the amulet of Sokidywag Wuco (399 gold)
Should the wearer of this amulet be levitated by magical means, he or
she
will be able to exercise some control over the resulting motion. This
allows the descent of staircases and the retrieval of items lying on
the
ground, for example, but does not deprive the wearer of the benefits
of
levitation.
It affects your evasion (+4).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+4).
It speeds your metabolism.

F - the ring of Impermeability (left hand) (581 gold)
This ring provides protection from cold.
It affects your accuracy (+2).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+4).
It protects you from fire.
It protects you from poison.

>>> Nifty or what?

G - the amulet "Yrecigygy" (385 gold)
This amulet protects its wearer from some magically induced forms of
slowness, and increases the duration of enchantments which speed his
or her
actions.
It affects your AC (+5).

H - the ring "Holuvujyjo" (1043 gold)
This powerful ring can be activated to hide its wearer from the view
of
others, but increases the speed of his or her metabolism greatly
while
doing so.
It affects your AC (+3).
It insulates you from electricity.
It makes you much less stealthy.

I - the ring of W Risoqewiqyn (462 gold)
This ring increases its wearer's reserves of magical power.
It affects your evasion (+7).
It affects your strength (-3).
It affects your accuracy (+1).
It protects you from fire.

>>> Never wore this one, don't know why not. You lose track of which
>>> ring does what after a while...

J - the amulet "Enyjenuv" (350 gold)
This amulet repels some of the attacks of creatures which have been
magically summoned.
It protects you from cold.

K - the amulet of Grottiness (483 gold)
This amulet protects its wearer from mutations, although not
infallibly so.
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+3).
It makes you susceptible to fire.
It insulates you from electricity.

>>> What wouldn't I have given for this in some of my other games?

N - the ring "Awa" (126 gold)
This accursed ring causes its wearer to hunger considerably more
quickly.
It partially protects you from negative energy.
It lets you blink.

P - the ring "Qfrxtam Kumo" (553 gold)
This ring provides protection from heat and fire.
It affects your AC (+7).
It affects your intelligence (+3).

U - the amulet of Limitation (385 gold)
This amulet protects its wearer from mutations, although not
infallibly so.
It affects your AC (+5).

X - the ring "Jykuhokajy" (right hand) (1015 gold)
This ring makes its wearer either more or less capable of avoiding
attacks,
depending on its degree of enchantment.
It affects your evasion (+5).
It insulates you from electricity.
It enhances your eyesight.
It lets you turn invisible.
It lets you sense your surroundings.

>>> Worn mostly for the see invisible.

Y - an amulet of conservation (around neck) (175 gold)

>>> Worth it in Pandemonium.

Potions
e - 6 potions of might (150 gold)

>>> Needed these to lug all of the runes out of the dungeon: they are
>>> heavy!

Orbs of Power
z - the Orb of Zot (250000 gold)

>>> Useless bit of frippery. I don't know why I bothered.

Miscellaneous
b - a slimy rune of Zot (10000 gold)

>>> About time I got one of these.

g - a glowing rune of Zot (10000 gold)
h - a bone rune of Zot (10000 gold)
i - 34 demonic runes of Zot (340000 gold)

>>> I spent too long in Pandemonium

j - a magical rune of Zot (10000 gold)
k - a fiery rune of Zot (10000 gold)
l - a serpentine rune of Zot (10000 gold)
p - a decaying rune of Zot (10000 gold)
r - a dark rune of Zot (10000 gold)
x - a golden rune of Zot (10000 gold)

>>> Cleared the Tomb by hand, and very nearly died a couple of times
>>> while doing so. Greater mummies hit hard, and the death curses are
>>> very very dangerous when you have low stats: twice Bob's Dex got
>>> taken below 5.

S - an iron rune of Zot (10000 gold)
T - an obsidian rune of Zot (10000 gold)
V - an icy rune of Zot (10000 gold)
Z - a silver rune of Zot (10000 gold)

>>> A full collection, bar abyssal. I just couldn't face wandering
>>> around there for days.

You have 15514 experience left.

>>> Nothing to spend it on!

Skills:
* Level 27 Fighting
- Level 1 Short Blades

>>> Threw away the shortsword I started with

+ Level 16 Long Blades

>>> Never even wielded one: this is all from one Manual which I took
>>> into Zot with me. I had to leave it behind when I picked up all of
>>> the runes, otherwise this would be level 17 or more.

- Level 6 Maces & Flails

>>> From a Manual.

- Level 1 Staves
+ Level 14 Crossbows

>>> From a Manual. You don't think I'd waste time actually using one, do
>>> you?

+ Level 1 Throwing
+ Level 20 Armour

>>> Manual-enhanced.

+ Level 7 Dodging

>>> Light armour at the start of the game, until I found the ice dragion
>>> armour.

+ Level 5 Stabbing
+ Level 18 Shields

>>> Wore a buckler much of the time.

- Level 14 Traps & Doors

>>> I forgot to turn this off in Pandemonium, which is why it's so high.

* Level 27 Unarmed Combat

>>> Thwack! Punch! Biff!

+ Level 20 Spellcasting

>>> My first ever character with Spellcasting higher than any of the
>>> other skills.

+ Level 19 Conjurations
+ Level 16 Enchantments
+ Level 16 Summonings
+ Level 14 Translocations

>>> Burned lots of xp on this to get it up so that I would be able to
>>> cast Controlled Blink flawlessly, then completely failed to find a
>>> Book of the Warp. It's the only book I didn't find. Argh.

+ Level 3 Transmigration

>>> Spent a short while casting Sticks to Snakes to raise this, then
>>> went off to see what my Blade Hands fail rate would be like, and
>>> only then realised that ghouls can't transform. Argh!

- Level 13 Divinations
+ Level 16 Air Magic
+ Level 16 Earth Magic

>>> The Earth Magic was largely from a Manual.

- Level 2 Poison Magic
+ Level 17 Invocations
+ Level 4 Evocations


You have 2 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

Your Spells Type Success
Level
a - Confusing Touch Enchantment Perfect 1
b - Static Discharge Air/Conjuration Excellent 4

>>> Memorised purely as a Conjuration-practiser.

c - Swiftness Air/Enchantment Perfect 2
d - Haste Enchantment Great 6

>>> A useful backup, but not actually used that often as I didn't need
>>> to.

e - Detect Items Divination Excellent 2
f - Detect Traps Divination Excellent 2

>>> Indispensable.

g - Silence Air/Enchantment Perfect 3

>>> Never actually got around to casting this in anger.

h - Detect Curse Divination Excellent 3

>>> Poor man's Indentify.

i - Selective Amnesia Enchantment Perfect 3
j - Blink Translocation Perfect 2
k - Detect Creatures Divination Excellent 2

>>> Don't leave home without it!

l - Conjure Ball Lightning Air/Conjuration Good 8

>>> I love this spell. Only cast in Zot for fun, though.

m - Fly Air/Enchantment Excellent 4
n - Magic Mapping Earth/Divination Excellent 4
o - Deflect Missiles Air/Enchantment Great 6
p - Abjuration Summoning Perfect 3

>>> Useful for dispelling imp hordes.

q - Iskenderun's Mystic Blast Conjuration Perfect 4

>>> USed mostly for dumping xp into Conjuration, but occasionally used
>>> to take out a Fiend or two for practise

r - Forescry Divination Excellent 5

>>> Kept forgetting I had this and never cast it.

So there you are. I'm bored with Crawl now.

--
Mark Mackey
The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
Hints, tips and spoilers
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On 10 Sep 2004 15:25:00 +0100 (BST), Mark Mackey
<markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>YAVP: Bob the Ghoul. I hadn't played a ghoul before, and I hadn't played
>a pure fighter-type for ages, so I thought it would be fun. This winner
>was only the second Bob the Ghoul I started: the first one died
>embarassingly (his potion of levitation ran out while trying to get into
>the wasp nest in the Hive and he drowned .

Because the undead can't breathe underwater. Makes sense.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

>Ghouls make the easiest Pandemonium-clearers of any race I've tried. The
>innate poison, cold, negative energy and mutation resistance means that
>(a) you don't have to wear an amulet of resist mutation, and (b) you've
>got much more latitude choosing other armour and jewellery for
>resistances. Moreover, ghouls are Torment-resistant (yeehah!). Bob was
>resistant to everything for a large part of the game.

That sure sounds like fun.

>No kill list, I'm afraid; I haven't got around to downloading the
>patched versions...

You should. I find the stash dumping property very useful.

>>>> Cleared the Tomb by hand, and very nearly died a couple of times
>>>> while doing so.

Impressive.

>>>> A full collection, bar abyssal. I just couldn't face wandering
>>>> around there for days.

Well, you wandered around Pandemonium so why not Abyss? Well,
I'm sure you've already managed to get a full set of runes
in some earlier game so perhaps it didn't seem important.

> * Level 27 Unarmed Combat

>>>> Thwack! Punch! Biff!

I wonder what kind of monsters you could kill with one attack?

> + Level 20 Spellcasting

Well, so much for the pure fighter type

Congratulations! You made it sound easy.

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto

 

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Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> bellowed:

> 1. 4948464 Bob the Boxer (level 27, 266/279 (287) HPs)
> Began as a Ghoul Fighter on Aug 6, 2004.
> Was the Champion of Makhleb.
> Escaped with the Orb

Congratulations!

> ... and 47 runes (of 14 types) on Sept 10, 2004!

<blink>

Looks neat!

> The game lasted 1 day, 01:56:58 (181471 turns).

> The long playtime is because I used Bob for light relief:

Long playtime? Am I missing a digit somewhere? There's six of them,
nearly two-hundred-thousand turns, right? (I haven't got a single
win under two-hundred-thousand turns.)

> Ghouls make the easiest Pandemonium-clearers of any race I've
> tried. The innate poison, cold, negative energy and mutation
> resistance

Mutation resistance, too?

> means that (a) you don't have to wear an amulet of resist
> mutation, and (b) you've got much more latitude choosing other
> armour and jewellery for resistances. Moreover, ghouls are
> Torment-resistant (yeehah!).

Now I'm wondering why mummies aren't Torment-resistant. (Or are
they?)

> Bob was resistant to everything for a large part of the game.



> [...] (you need a *lot* of xp to raise a skill with the totals
> that Bob had).

How do the skill levels influence learning others, apart from the
four elemental magic skills?

> No kill list, I'm afraid; I haven't got around to downloading the
> patched versions...

Shame, that. I bet it would have been interesting.

> Strength 31 Dexterity 9 Intelligence 14

>>>> Upgrades on Int mostly, with a few points on Dex to get it
>>>> above the magic insta-death 8

8 itself is not good enough?

> You are encumbered.

>>>> That's an understatement. I only managed to climb the exit
>>>> stairs by quaffing a potion of might and casting Fly .

Heh. You had to climb all the others the same way, too, or had you
dumped stuff on the stairs before to pick up on the way out?

<snip lots of very neat stuff>

> s - the ring of Glory (490 gold)
> This ring provides protection from heat and fire.
> It affects your AC (+6).
> It affects your damage-dealing abilities (-1).
> It protects you from poison.
> It lets you turn invisible.
> It glows with mutagenic radiation.

>>>> The nice thing about this is that ghouls can't mutate, so the
>>>> glow wasn't a problem. I didn't wear this one anyway on
>>>> principle: who wants a glowing ghoul?

Wouldn't that be all the more stylish? (Think horror movies, with
eerily glowing undead ghosting about.)

> B - the amulet of Unemochypnume (385 gold)
[berserk]
> It greatly protects you from cold.

>>>> Unfortunately ghouls can't go berserk.

Why?

> F - the ring of Impermeability (left hand) (581 gold)
> This ring provides protection from cold.
> It affects your accuracy (+2).
> It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+4).
> It protects you from fire.
> It protects you from poison.

>>>> Nifty or what?

Indeed.

> I - the ring of W Risoqewiqyn (462 gold)
> This ring increases its wearer's reserves of magical power.
> It affects your evasion (+7).
> It affects your strength (-3).
> It affects your accuracy (+1).
> It protects you from fire.

>>>> Never wore this one, don't know why not. You lose track of
>>>> which ring does what after a while...

That happens to me with only two artifact rings. <g>

> Y - an amulet of conservation (around neck) (175 gold)

>>>> Worth it in Pandemonium.

I've found them worth it anywhere; without one the monsters simply
just boil and freeze away all my stuff.

> Potions
> e - 6 potions of might (150 gold)

>>>> Needed these to lug all of the runes out of the dungeon: they
>>>> are heavy!

<g>

> Orbs of Power
> z - the Orb of Zot (250000 gold)

>>>> Useless bit of frippery. I don't know why I bothered.

LOL. How about you use it to get some nice place in the winner pub?
😉

> Miscellaneous
> b - a slimy rune of Zot (10000 gold)

>>>> About time I got one of these.

True. Weren't there at least two games where the game refused to
give you a complete set?

> i - 34 demonic runes of Zot (340000 gold)

>>>> I spent too long in Pandemonium



Am still wondering which runes you can get where exactly, apart from
the ones I grabbed in some games. A look at the source suggests that
the Gehenna rune isn't actually fiery but obsidian. Is that true? I
can only guess that glowing, magical, fiery and dark are from some
special Pandemonium demon lords. Is that right?

>>>> A full collection, bar abyssal. I just couldn't face wandering
>>>> around there for days.

Oh. Shame, though.

> + Level 14 Crossbows

>>>> From a Manual. You don't think I'd waste time actually using
>>>> one, do you?

Hehe.

> + Level 4 Evocations

Evocations looks rather lonely, being so low.

> So there you are. I'm bored with Crawl now.

Ooh. You could still give advice, especially on Pandemonium, which
doesn't seem to scare you at all...

--
Tina the Crawling Darts Champion - a Priest of the Remorselessly Neat Gnat

 

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In article <jkuusist.1094851306@kosh.hut.fi>,
Jukka Kuusisto <jkuusist@cc.hut.fi> wrote:
>Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>
>>>>> Cleared the Tomb by hand, and very nearly died a couple of times
>>>>> while doing so.
>
>Impressive.

Either that or stupid. I should know better by now. It was only the fact
that a large number of the mummies death curses don't affect ghouls that
made me risk it in the first place.

>Well, you wandered around Pandemonium so why not Abyss?

The Abyss is even more boring...

>> * Level 27 Unarmed Combat
>I wonder what kind of monsters you could kill with one attack?

A couple of times Bob killed Executioners in one blow . That of course
would then be followed by him taking 10 turns to kill a midge: Crawl's
combat really is *very* random.

>> + Level 20 Spellcasting
>
>Well, so much for the pure fighter type

He was (more or less), until Unarmed hit level 27. After that, well, the
xp's got to go somewhere. One of these days I might try Brent's
challenge of raising every skill to level 10, although I'm not sure I
could face throwing that many darts.

--
Mark Mackey
The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
Hints, tips and spoilers
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/

 

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In article <28e4k01du1j3hqs1hu8ar3975e8d1iib5c@4ax.com>,
R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote:
>
>Because the undead can't breathe underwater. Makes sense.

Maybe he just got stuck in the mud and eaten by the crabs. Anyway, the
undead must breathe, or else they wouldn't be able to say
'Aaaaaaaarrrrggggghhhhhhh'.

--
Mark Mackey
The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
Hints, tips and spoilers
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/

 

[Ru]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <7Mp*2zwuq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Mark Mackey wrote:
> In article <28e4k01du1j3hqs1hu8ar3975e8d1iib5c@4ax.com>,
> R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote:
>>
>>Because the undead can't breathe underwater. Makes sense.
>
> Maybe he just got stuck in the mud and eaten by the crabs. Anyway, the
> undead must breathe, or else they wouldn't be able to say
> 'Aaaaaaaarrrrggggghhhhhhh'.

ghouls go "meep" ;-)


--
ru

 

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In article <MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_2856225a@fidonet.org>,
Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> bellowed:
>
>> The game lasted 1 day, 01:56:58 (181471 turns).
>> The long playtime is because I used Bob for light relief:
>
>Long playtime? Am I missing a digit somewhere? There's six of them,
>nearly two-hundred-thousand turns, right? (I haven't got a single
>win under two-hundred-thousand turns.)

Yeah, but you spend ages running around the dungeon tidying it up. The
game-time-vs-play-time ratio decreased towards the end because I hardly
ever needed to rest: a level of Pandemonium took a few hundred turns
tops (cast divination spells, head towards '&', dig hole in wall, kill
'&', grab loot, find portal out).

>> Ghouls make the easiest Pandemonium-clearers of any race I've
>> tried. The innate poison, cold, negative energy and mutation
>> resistance
>
>Mutation resistance, too?

Yah.

>> [...] (you need a *lot* of xp to raise a skill with the totals
>> that Bob had).
>
>How do the skill levels influence learning others, apart from the
>four elemental magic skills?

The number of xp you need to raise a skill depends on the total number
of skill levels you already have. Towards the end Bob was dumping 50K
experience points into skills (at skill level 13ish) without them being
raised.

>>>>> Upgrades on Int mostly, with a few points on Dex to get it
>>>>> above the magic insta-death 8
>
>8 itself is not good enough?

I did some source diving: one of the mummy curse effects is

lose_stat(STAT_RANDOM, 1 + random2avg(7, 2));

so having a stat at 8 still leves you open to a stat-loss instadeath.

>> You are encumbered.
>
>>>>> That's an understatement. I only managed to climb the exit
>>>>> stairs by quaffing a potion of might and casting Fly .
>
>Heh. You had to climb all the others the same way, too, or had you
>dumped stuff on the stairs before to pick up on the way out?

Drop 10 demonic runes, climb stairs, drop 10 demonic runes, go down
stairs, pick up 10 demonic runes, climb stairs pick up demonic runes.

>>>>> Unfortunately ghouls can't go berserk.
>Why?

"You cannot raise a blood rage in your lifeless body."
Balances some of their advantages, I suppose.

>> b - a slimy rune of Zot (10000 gold)
>>>>> About time I got one of these.
>
>True. Weren't there at least two games where the game refused to
>give you a complete set?

Yup.

>Am still wondering which runes you can get where exactly, apart from
>the ones I grabbed in some games. A look at the source suggests that
>the Gehenna rune isn't actually fiery but obsidian. Is that true?

Gehenna is obsidian.

>I can only guess that glowing, magical, fiery and dark are from some
>special Pandemonium demon lords. Is that right?

Yes. There are four special levels in Pandemonium, each holding a major
demon lord and a special rune. They are usually distinguishable from the
run-of-the-mill levels with Detect Monsters and Detect Items. You can
only find each of these levels once: if you leave you'll never be able
to get back.

--
Mark Mackey
The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
Hints, tips and spoilers
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/

 

[abc]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

> >>> who wants a glowing ghoul?

Another glowing ghoul. Stands to reason

abc

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:
> Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:

>> Long playtime? Am I missing a digit somewhere? There's six of
>> them, nearly two-hundred-thousand turns, right? (I haven't got a
>> single win under two-hundred-thousand turns.)

> Yeah, but you spend ages running around the dungeon tidying it
> up.

LOL. Well I like things neat and tidy. <looking around> Ehm, the
dungeon is far easier to tidy up than bracing the Bermuda Piles I've
got in my real life flat.

> The game-time-vs-play-time ratio decreased towards the end
> because I hardly ever needed to rest: a level of Pandemonium took
> a few hundred turns tops (cast divination spells, head towards
> '&', dig hole in wall, kill '&', grab loot, find portal out).

Isn't there any worthwhile junk lying around in the rest of the
level?

>> How do the skill levels influence learning others, apart from
>> the four elemental magic skills?

> The number of xp you need to raise a skill depends on the total
> number of skill levels you already have. Towards the end Bob was
> dumping 50K experience points into skills (at skill level 13ish)
> without them being raised.

Ow, that makes that post with all sorts of skills at level 27 look
even more patient.

[...]
> so having a stat at 8 still leves you open to a stat-loss
> instadeath.

Damn, it's such a nice number.

>> Heh. You had to climb all the others the same way, too, or had
>> you dumped stuff on the stairs before to pick up on the way out?

> Drop 10 demonic runes, climb stairs, drop 10 demonic runes, go
> down stairs, pick up 10 demonic runes, climb stairs pick up
> demonic runes.

Ah, yes. I usually only do that with plate mails and similar that I
pile up somewhere until I can test them.

>>>>>> Unfortunately ghouls can't go berserk.
>> Why?

> "You cannot raise a blood rage in your lifeless body."
> Balances some of their advantages, I suppose.

Makes sense.

[four special Pandemonium levels]
> You can only find each of these levels once: if you leave you'll
> never be able to get back.

That answers the question in the other post about Pandemonium.
Thanks.

--
Tina the Geomancer - the Favourite Plaything of the Rightly Normal Gangster

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_28664a42@fidonet.org>,
Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:
>
>> The game-time-vs-play-time ratio decreased towards the end
>> because I hardly ever needed to rest: a level of Pandemonium took
>> a few hundred turns tops (cast divination spells, head towards
>> '&', dig hole in wall, kill '&', grab loot, find portal out).
>
>Isn't there any worthwhile junk lying around in the rest of the
>level?

Possibly, but who cares? The difference between P. and the rest of the
dungeon is that it's infinite. The rest of the dungeon has only a finite
amount of goodies, so it's worth exploring fully to make sure that you
get all of what there is. In P., there's always another fully-stocked
level a gate away. So, you can either spend five minutes and a thousand
turns wandering around thwacking '5's, getting bored, and picking up
three scrolls of detect curse and a +0 flail, or you can hop to the next
level, beat up an '&' and a few '1's for 20K experience and check out
the four guaranteed-excellent items that were in the '&'s vault. It's
taken the same time, but you got far more stuff out of the second case
than out of the first.

If I see a scroll or potion on the ground in P., I usually check it out
(from a distance, with 'x', rather than actually walking over to it),
but I don't bother even looking at armour/weapons etc unless it's in a
vault and hence has a good chance of being an artifact. I generally also
skip levels that don't have guaranteed-excellent items in them. You can
tell from the pattern of demons and traps around the '&': there are only
8 or so different configurations, only three of which have meaningful
amounts of goodies.

Fully exploring each level in Pandemonium would be like trying to fully
explore the Abyss to make sure you didn't miss anything .

--
Mark Mackey
The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
Hints, tips and spoilers
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> bellowed:
> Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>> Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> screeched:

>>> You also need an escape route of some sort: two torments and
>>> you're on less than 40hp. If this happens, and Tomb of Dorokhle
>>> isn't an option, then teleport and start using up those wands
>>> of healing .
>>
>> What about Banishing myself in an absolute emergency?

> I hadn't really thought of that. Is Banishment instantaneous?

I think so. (Not that I know why I think so.)

> In any case, Controlled Blink is your friend if you have it.

That's true! I vote for your suggestion of the spell being the
advice of the year.

I went into Pandemonium (going by your suggestions as best I could,
though I didn't find a useful second level of fire resistance).
Killed two named random & (searched the source to figure out what's
up with the buggers that didn't leave a rune, turned out they're
random buggers), went through about 4 levels (the first two were
just two plus-shaped levels of different width), ran into a gate
leading out of Panedmonium, cleared the rest of the level and left
for now (I'll go back).

Anyway, Controlled Blink into a spot away from my friends + Tomb of
D., at the first Torment is neat. While sitting there, I even
gathered Exp. on occasion because my friends kept happily fighting.
Didn't need any heal* stuff yet, nor much in the matter of
resistances.

Just with my playing style, food is still an issue. I ate 5 meat
rations and found 2 bread rations (that I ate immediately) and some
grapes (ate those, too) in those four levels. I know I have to do
something about that, but how am I supposed to recognize the levels
that are worth mapping completely? And if I don't sort the junk into
a corner or remove it, I'll keep forgetting which bits I've looked
at.

I found that a stone of earth elementals is a bit awkward to dig
(mainly for getting out of the Tomb of D., which I also use to
remove stuff like traps and junk), it fails too often and has to be
wielded... I would rather just use the spell. (The stone is neat
when you can't do the spell, like with my HOPr.)

> On the special levels it's worth taking a chance (just be
> careful), while on the non-special levels it's more a question of
> risk management: through the portal is another level which has
> just as many goodies as this level does but which is safer, so why
> not go there instead?

This one might have a rune?

<including the other post with the same topic>

>> Isn't there any worthwhile junk lying around in the rest of the
>> level?

> Possibly, but who cares?

I do?

> The difference between P. and the rest of the dungeon is that it's
> infinite. The rest of the dungeon has only a finite amount of
> goodies, so it's worth exploring fully to make sure that you get
> all of what there is. [...]

Makes sense.

> or you can hop to the next level, beat up an '&' and a few '1's
> for 20K experience and check out the four guaranteed-excellent
> items that were in the '&'s vault.

How do I recognize these levels?

And if I skip levels, how do I know I didn't miss some food rations?
With your strategy, I might never find any.

> If I see a scroll or potion on the ground in P., I usually check
> it out (from a distance, with 'x', rather than actually walking
> over to it), but I don't bother even looking at armour/weapons
> etc unless it's in a vault and hence has a good chance of being
> an artifact.

That's not a problem with Identify and the staff of energy.

> I generally also skip levels that don't have guaranteed-excellent
> items in them. You can tell from the pattern of demons and traps
> around the '&': there are only 8 or so different configurations,
> only three of which have meaningful amounts of goodies.

Hmmm... The first of the random demon levels looked interesting, but
no rune and no useful goodies.

> Fully exploring each level in Pandemonium would be like trying to
> fully explore the Abyss to make sure you didn't miss anything .

<g>

Makes sense, though in the Abyss you don't get to chose the moment
you go on to the next level.

--
Tina the Firebug - an Initiate of the Rocky Normal Goblin

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall wrote:
> Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> bellowed:


>>or you can hop to the next level, beat up an '&' and a few '1's
>>for 20K experience and check out the four guaranteed-excellent
>>items that were in the '&'s vault.
>
>
> How do I recognize these levels?


By the form of the vault. check maps.cc for details. IIRTSC there are
nine random & vaults and four special levels with fixed named demons and
runes. The random vaults are: (numbers are monsters(1 is the big guy), P
may be runes, F are statues, x are walls, * is good stuff, | is
excellent stuff)

no rune, just &:

"............"
".xx.xx.x.xx."
"..x.x..x.x.."
"..x.x..x.x.."
"..x.x..x.x.."
"..x.x..x.x.."
"..x.x1.x.x.."
"..x.x..x.x.."
"..x.x..x.x.."
"..x.x..x.x.."
".xx.x.xx.xx."
"............"

"............"
".xxxxxxxx3x."
".3.....xx.x."
".xxxxxx4x.x."
".xx4x..xx.x."
".x.x.22.x.x."
".x.x.12.x.x."
".x.xx..x4xx."
".x.x4xxxxxx."
".x.xx.....3."
".x3xxxxxxxx."
"............"

"............"
".x.x.x3x.x.."
"..x.x3x3x.x."
".x.x.x2x.x.."
"..x3x2x2x3x."
".x3x2x1x2x3."
"..x3x2x2x3x."
".x.x.x2x3x.."
"..x.x3x3x.x."
".x.x.x3x.x.."
"..x.x.x.x.x."
"............"

"............"
"............"
"......2....."
"............"
".3.........."
"..........2."
".....1......"
"............"
"............"
".2.......3.."
"............"
"............"

"............"
"....xxxxxxx."
"..xxx....1x."
".xx..2....x."
".x........x."
".xx.......x."
"..xx33..2.x."
"....33...xx."
".....x...x.."
"..F..xx.xx.."
"......xxx..."
"............"

no rune but stuff:

"............"
".xxx....xxx."
".x|xx=xxx|x."
".xx=....=xx."
"..x.x==x.x.."
"..x.=12=.=.."
"..=.=23=.x.."
"..x.x==x.x.."
".xx=....=xx."
".x|xxx=xx|x."
".xxx....xxx."
"............"

rune:

"............""............""............"
".xxxxxxxxx..""...xxxxxx..."".xxxxxxxxxx."
".x$=*=3=|x..""..xx....xx.."".x2=3=3=3xx."
".xxxxxxx=x.."".xx......xx."".x=xxxxxx2x."
".x2=3=2x|x.."".x..3232..x."".x3x^^^^x=x."
".x=xxxxx=x.."".x..2|P3..x."".x=x^P^^x2x."
".x3=*x1=Px.."".x..3P|2..x."".x3x^^1^x=x."
".x=x=xxxxx.."".x..2123..x."".x=x^^^^x3x."
".x*x2=3=2=.."".xx......xx."".x2xxxx=x=x."
".xxxxxxxxx..""..xx....xx.."".xx2=2=3x3x."
"............""...xxxxxx..."".xxxxxxxx=x."
"............""............""............"


> And if I skip levels, how do I know I didn't miss some food rations?
> With your strategy, I might never find any.

The chance of finding food is just the same on every level and IIRC the
same for each spot on that level. So you have to maximize the ratio grid
points seen/turn. IAW if you don't see food on your corridor don't waste
time searching for hidden food, just proceed to the next free space.
Anyway this is all just theoretical advice; I've never seen Pandemonium
outside of wizmode.


Lars

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Lars Kecke .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> How do I recognize these levels?
>
> By the form of the vault. check maps.cc for details. IIRTSC there are
> nine random & vaults and four special levels with fixed named demons and
> runes. The random vaults are: (numbers are monsters(1 is the big guy), P
> may be runes, F are statues, x are walls, * is good stuff, | is
> excellent stuff)
>
> no rune, just &:
> skip <maps>
That's kinda cheating I guess.


>> And if I skip levels, how do I know I didn't miss some food rations?
>> With your strategy, I might never find any.
>
> The chance of finding food is just the same on every level and IIRC the
> same for each spot on that level. So you have to maximize the ratio grid
> points seen/turn. IAW if you don't see food on your corridor don't waste
> time searching for hidden food, just proceed to the next free space.

So IMO in other words - if you don't spend a lot of food (by being a large
creature or casting high-level spells without staff of energy) you don't
need to worry about food. My best TrBe starved to death after visiting hell
and casted from there into Abyss (IIRC), but he has some fast metabolism
also.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Lars Kecke .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> How do I recognize these levels?
>
> By the form of the vault. check maps.cc for details. IIRTSC there are
> nine random & vaults and four special levels with fixed named demons and
> runes. The random vaults are: (numbers are monsters(1 is the big guy), P
> may be runes, F are statues, x are walls, * is good stuff, | is
> excellent stuff)
>
> no rune, just &:
> skip <maps>

That's kinda cheating I guess.


>> And if I skip levels, how do I know I didn't miss some food rations?
>> With your strategy, I might never find any.
>
> The chance of finding food is just the same on every level and IIRC the
> same for each spot on that level. So you have to maximize the ratio grid
> points seen/turn. IAW if you don't see food on your corridor don't waste
> time searching for hidden food, just proceed to the next free space.

So IMO in other words - if you don't spend a lot of food (by being a large
creature or casting high-level spells without staff of energy) you don't
need to worry about food. My best TrBe starved to death after visiting hell
and casted from there into Abyss (IIRC), but he has some fast metabolism
also.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> screeched:
> Lars Kecke .-- .-. --- - . ---...

[Pandemonium maps]
>> skip <maps>
> That's kinda cheating I guess.

Nonsense. The source is free to look at, this is a spoiler like any
other.

--
Tina the Geomancer - a Priest of the Regained Noxious Goblin

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Lars Kecke <kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de> shouted:
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> bellowed:

>>> or you can hop to the next level, beat up an '&' and a few '1's
>>> for 20K experience and check out the four guaranteed-excellent
>>> items that were in the '&'s vault.
>>
>> How do I recognize these levels?

> By the form of the vault. check maps.cc for details.

I've already looked at that, and couldn't find any runes placed in
the map.

> IIRTSC there are nine random & vaults and four special levels with
> fixed named demons and runes.

What about levels with just a demonic rune?

Do monsters actually pick up runes, or do I not have to worry about
that and run after every imp still hopping around somewhere on the
level?

> The random vaults are: (numbers are monsters(1 is the big guy), P
> may be runes, F are statues, x are walls, * is good stuff, | is
> excellent stuff)

<some levels snipped throughout>

> no rune, just &:

> "............"
> ".xxxxxxxx3x."
> ".3.....xx.x."
> ".xxxxxx4x.x."
> ".xx4x..xx.x."
> ".x.x.22.x.x."
> ".x.x.12.x.x."
> ".x.xx..x4xx."
> ".x.x4xxxxxx."
> ".x.xx.....3."
> ".x3xxxxxxxx."
> "............"

I've been there.

> "............"
> "....xxxxxxx."
> "..xxx....1x."
> ".xx..2....x."
> ".x........x."
> ".xx.......x."
> "..xx33..2.x."
> "....33...xx."
> ".....x...x.."
> "..F..xx.xx.."
> "......xxx..."
> "............"

Have seen something similar to that, though more like an outline of
an '&' rather than Africa. <g>

> no rune but stuff:

> "............"
> ".xxx....xxx."
> ".x|xx=xxx|x."
> ".xx=....=xx."
> "..x.x==x.x.."
> "..x.=12=.=.."
> "..=.=23=.x.."
> "..x.x==x.x.."
> ".xx=....=xx."
> ".x|xxx=xx|x."
> ".xxx....xxx."
> "............"

I think I've seen that, but found no good goodies. The only useful
level so far was the one with Gsomethingorother (I think it started
with a G), that had a fiery rune. Actually had a book of Minor Magic
that I didn't have yet (I found that I lack some other books beside
only the one I thought, too, both the Conjurations I had lying
around seemed Ice, for example, and I only had one Minor Magic, I
wish they could be distinguished at least in the dump).

> rune:

> "............""............""............"
> ".xxxxxxxxx..""...xxxxxx..."".xxxxxxxxxx."
> ".x$=*=3=|x..""..xx....xx.."".x2=3=3=3xx."
> ".xxxxxxx=x.."".xx......xx."".x=xxxxxx2x."
> ".x2=3=2x|x.."".x..3232..x."".x3x^^^^x=x."
> ".x=xxxxx=x.."".x..2|P3..x."".x=x^P^^x2x."
> ".x3=*x1=Px.."".x..3P|2..x."".x3x^^1^x=x."
> ".x=x=xxxxx.."".x..2123..x."".x=x^^^^x3x."
> ".x*x2=3=2=.."".xx......xx."".x2xxxx=x=x."
> ".xxxxxxxxx..""..xx....xx.."".xx2=2=3x3x."
> "............""...xxxxxx..."".xxxxxxxx=x."
> "............""............""............"

That's only three, but there are four specially named demons. And
the right one didn't have a rune the two times (from memory, I'm
sure about two times, but not much else) I've seen it so far.

The left one looks familiar, but I can't quite make any sense of it.
What's '='?

>> And if I skip levels, how do I know I didn't miss some food
>> rations? With your strategy, I might never find any.

> The chance of finding food is just the same on every level and
> IIRC the same for each spot on that level. So you have to
> maximize the ratio grid points seen/turn.

Not every food is the same, though.

> IAW

'IAW'?

> if you don't see food on your corridor don't waste time searching
> for hidden food, just proceed to the next free space. Anyway this
> is all just theoretical advice; I've never seen Pandemonium
> outside of wizmode.

First I do is move away from my friends, summon up the Tomb of D.,
wield that crystal ball of seeing (btw, the Magic Mapping mutation
isn't even listed in the abilities - I've caught some bad mutation
twice and shuffled them around a bit more with Alter Self to get rid
of those, got the 'sense surroundings' mutation at the moment),
Evoke the ball until I actually get to see something twice (which
doesn't map much, so this is all repeated at different spots in the
level), then cast Detect Monsters, Detect Traps and Detect Items, so
I know where to run for stuff, but so far I've fully explored every
level anyway. (Compulsive Exploring Disorder, comes along with
Compulsive Sorting Disorder - I just can't leave stuff lying around
on the floor, everything I don't want to take with me is destroyed,
with the Tomb of D., and I can't leave any square unseen, either.)

I don't think I'm doing this right. With Banishment, I get out
whenever I like, and back to the Temple in a short time. Not that
this isn't a comforting approach, but once again I don't really get
to see the full danger (like with the DESu, my first win, who didn't
learn how tough monsters are, as he wasn't fighting them himself).
Haven't even once used the wands of healing, hasting and
teleportation so far. I either Crystal Spear something down, or hide
while my Horrible Things remove the crittes...

Ah well, it's fun.

--
Tina the Politician - the Favourite Plaything of the Raucous Nuclear Grease

 

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"Loonie" <loonie2@tlen.pl> wrote in message
news:1f248s77ki5qe.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr...
> Lars Kecke .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>
>> The chance of finding food is just the same on every level and IIRC the
>> same for each spot on that level. So you have to maximize the ratio grid
>> points seen/turn. IAW if you don't see food on your corridor don't waste
>> time searching for hidden food, just proceed to the next free space.
>
> So IMO in other words - if you don't spend a lot of food (by being a large
> creature or casting high-level spells without staff of energy) you don't
> need to worry about food. My best TrBe starved to death after visiting
> hell
> and casted from there into Abyss (IIRC), but he has some fast metabolism
> also.
>

Well, I don't think that's what Lars is trying to express.
The idea is that the chance of food being created on a given dungeon tile
is constant. The more dungeon tiles you see the greater the chance you find
food. So to have the greatest chance of finding food, you need to expose
yourself to the greatest number of *unexplored* tiles in the *shortest*
amount of time.

Therefore fully exploring every level is one of the worst possible
approaches to finding food.

To recap:

1. Food generation constant for each tile. Let the chance of finding food
on a given tile is X, 0 < X < 1 (we already know X != 0 or 1).
2. Therefore the chance of finding at least one portion of food on at least
one tile out of a group of newly discovered tiles is (1-X)^n, where n is the
number of newly discovered tiles.
3. Therefore the most efficient way to find food quickly is to minimise
(1-X)^n. Since (1-X) < 1, this will become smaller for larger values of n,
i.e. for the greater number of newly discovered tiles.
4. This implies that the quickest (probabilistically) way to find food is
to expose your character to the greatest number of unseen tiles each turn.

So IOW it has nothing to do with metabolism or regeneration or monster
race, but a simple chain of logic. One which Angband players surely know
quite well -- the whole principle of stair scumming is based on it, as this
is *the* fastest way to minimise (1-X)^n.

There are some factors which the above doesn't take into account, such as
respawning items, but I think these would be negligible.

--
Glen
L😛yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote in message
news:4148eebe@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
> "Loonie" <loonie2@tlen.pl> wrote in message
> news:1f248s77ki5qe.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr...
>> Lars Kecke .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>
>>>
>>> The chance of finding food is just the same on every level and IIRC the
>>> same for each spot on that level. So you have to maximize the ratio grid
>>> points seen/turn. IAW if you don't see food on your corridor don't waste
>>> time searching for hidden food, just proceed to the next free space.
>>
>> So IMO in other words - if you don't spend a lot of food (by being a
>> large
>> creature or casting high-level spells without staff of energy) you don't
>> need to worry about food. My best TrBe starved to death after visiting
>> hell
>> and casted from there into Abyss (IIRC), but he has some fast metabolism
>> also.
>>
>
> [..]
>
> 2. Therefore the chance of finding at least one portion of food on at
> least one tile out of a group of newly discovered tiles is (1-X)^n, where
> n is the number of newly discovered tiles.

Apologies to all, but this should read:

2. Therefore the chance of *not* finding at least one portion of food on at
least one tile out of a group of newly discovered tiles is (1-X)^n, where n
is the number of newly discovered tiles.

Then the rest follows as written. Sorry for any confusion.

> [..]
--
Glen
L😛yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Glen Wheeler .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> So IMO in other words - if you don't spend a lot of food (by being a large
>> creature or casting high-level spells without staff of energy) you don't
>> need to worry about food. My best TrBe starved to death after visiting
>> hell
>> and casted from there into Abyss (IIRC), but he has some fast metabolism
>> also.
>>
> Well, I don't think that's what Lars is trying to express.

That was almost perfect digression from my side, it wasn't meant to
contradict Lars point.

> The idea is that the chance of food being created on a given dungeon tile
> is constant. The more dungeon tiles you see the greater the chance you find
> food. So to have the greatest chance of finding food, you need to expose
> yourself to the greatest number of *unexplored* tiles in the *shortest*
> amount of time.

I think food is not the greatest problem in Pandemonium for most
characters, BTW.


> Therefore fully exploring every level is one of the worst possible
> approaches to finding food.

It depends on the shape of dungeon - extreme case: imagine the dungeon
equivalent to character's view area with the stair in the middle - by
entering it you explore the whole dungeon, so "one of the worst" is
simultaneously the optimal one also. 🙂
Less extreme: take the level with a lot of space (shape similar to Temple),
if you are here it's better to explore it fully than to move to another
which is probabilistically worse to explore (assuming it's the best one).
So it's in your interest to fully explore this one as it's easy this time.


> To recap:
>
> 1. Food generation constant for each tile. Let the chance of finding food
> on a given tile is X, 0 < X < 1 (we already know X != 0 or 1).
> 2. Therefore the chance of finding at least one portion of food on at least
> one tile out of a group of newly discovered tiles is (1-X)^n, where n is the
> number of newly discovered tiles.
> 3. Therefore the most efficient way to find food quickly is to minimise
> (1-X)^n. Since (1-X) < 1, this will become smaller for larger values of n,
> i.e. for the greater number of newly discovered tiles.
> 4. This implies that the quickest (probabilistically) way to find food is
> to expose your character to the greatest number of unseen tiles each turn.

In practice: try not to include walls in the potential seen tiles, and move
across instead of moving left/right/up/down. If you can't do the previous
move to next level.


> So IOW it has nothing to do with metabolism or regeneration or monster
> race, but a simple chain of logic. One which Angband players surely know
> quite well -- the whole principle of stair scumming is based on it, as this
> is *the* fastest way to minimise (1-X)^n.

So - I guess in Angband the dungeon is not permament (at least by default).
That's idea I don't like as not natural.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall wrote:
> Lars Kecke <kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de> shouted:
>
[maps.cc]
> I've already looked at that, and couldn't find any runes placed in
> the map.

It's coded as P (50% chance of rune) or O (rune)

>>IIRTSC there are nine random & vaults and four special levels with
>>fixed named demons and runes.
>
> What about levels with just a demonic rune?

that's 3 of the nine vaults. The four fixed demons have much bigger
vaults, comparable in size to the elven halls vault.

> Do monsters actually pick up runes, or do I not have to worry about
> that and run after every imp still hopping around somewhere on the
> level?

No. They only pick up weapons, scrolls, potions, wands and gold.

>>The random vaults are: (numbers are monsters(1 is the big guy), P
>>may be runes, F are statues, x are walls, * is good stuff, | is
>>excellent stuff)
>
>
> <some levels snipped throughout>

>
>>no rune but stuff:
>
>
>>"............"
>>".xxx....xxx."
>>".x|xx=xxx|x."
>>".xx=....=xx."
>>"..x.x==x.x.."
>>"..x.=12=.=.."
>>"..=.=23=.x.."
>>"..x.x==x.x.."
>>".xx=....=xx."
>>".x|xxx=xx|x."
>>".xxx....xxx."
>>"............"
>
>
> I think I've seen that, but found no good goodies.

The | in the corners should be ackquirement-type items; still they don't
have to bee good in a game sense, just special.

>>rune:
>
>
>>"............""............""............"
>>".xxxxxxxxx..""...xxxxxx..."".xxxxxxxxxx."
>>".x$=*=3=|x..""..xx....xx.."".x2=3=3=3xx."
>>".xxxxxxx=x.."".xx......xx."".x=xxxxxx2x."
>>".x2=3=2x|x.."".x..3232..x."".x3x^^^^x=x."
>>".x=xxxxx=x.."".x..2|P3..x."".x=x^P^^x2x."
>>".x3=*x1=Px.."".x..3P|2..x."".x3x^^1^x=x."
>>".x=x=xxxxx.."".x..2123..x."".x=x^^^^x3x."
>>".x*x2=3=2=.."".xx......xx."".x2xxxx=x=x."
>>".xxxxxxxxx..""..xx....xx.."".xx2=2=3x3x."
>>"............""...xxxxxx..."".xxxxxxxx=x."
>>"............""............""............"
>
>
> That's only three, but there are four specially named demons.

Yes. These three are the random may-be-rune vaults. As I said above the
fixed ones are much greater. one of 20 pandemonium levels should be a
fixed demon level (les if you killed one of them)

> the right one didn't have a rune the two times (from memory, I'm
> sure about two times, but not much else) I've seen it so far.

P means 50% chance of rune.

> The left one looks familiar, but I can't quite make any sense of it.
> What's '='?

secret doors.


> Not every food is the same, though.

No, but all floor tiles are the same object-generation-wise, so the best
strategy not to run out of food is to see the most tiles per unit of time.

>
>
>>IAW
>
>
> 'IAW'?

oops, dyslexia. I meant IOW (in other words).

> [...] but so far I've fully explored every
> level anyway. (Compulsive Exploring Disorder, comes along with
> Compulsive Sorting Disorder - I just can't leave stuff lying around
> on the floor, everything I don't want to take with me is destroyed,
> with the Tomb of D., and I can't leave any square unseen, either.)

This strategy will kill you in an infinite dungeon without corpses. You
have to have found the next food ration by the time the last one runs
out. Assuming that food is only generated at level generation that
means: don't linger. Anyway the only things that are really lost when
you leave the level are fixarts and they are not generated in P (except
on the fixed demons of course).

Lars

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Loonie" <loonie2@tlen.pl> wrote in message
news:v8vul5g7p8cl$.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr...
> Glen Wheeler .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>> So IMO in other words - if you don't spend a lot of food (by being a
>>> large
>>> creature or casting high-level spells without staff of energy) you don't
>>> need to worry about food. My best TrBe starved to death after visiting
>>> hell
>>> and casted from there into Abyss (IIRC), but he has some fast metabolism
>>> also.
>>>
>> Well, I don't think that's what Lars is trying to express.
>
> That was almost perfect digression from my side, it wasn't meant to
> contradict Lars point.
>

I was thrown off by your expression ``...in other words...'' this means
that you are attempting to rephrase the previous argument.

>> The idea is that the chance of food being created on a given dungeon
>> tile
>> is constant. The more dungeon tiles you see the greater the chance you
>> find
>> food. So to have the greatest chance of finding food, you need to expose
>> yourself to the greatest number of *unexplored* tiles in the *shortest*
>> amount of time.
>
> I think food is not the greatest problem in Pandemonium for most
> characters, BTW.
>
>

I was more attempting to explain Lars' point clearer for Tina, who did
seem to be taking the worst possible approach to this problem in
Pandemonium, and *is* having problems with food. The aim was that she could
read it and amend her strategy.

>> Therefore fully exploring every level is one of the worst possible
>> approaches to finding food.
>
> It depends on the shape of dungeon - extreme case: imagine the dungeon
> equivalent to character's view area with the stair in the middle - by
> entering it you explore the whole dungeon, so "one of the worst" is
> simultaneously the optimal one also. 🙂
> Less extreme: take the level with a lot of space (shape similar to
> Temple),
> if you are here it's better to explore it fully than to move to another
> which is probabilistically worse to explore (assuming it's the best one).
> So it's in your interest to fully explore this one as it's easy this time.
>

That's true. But the temple and the very very small dungeon level are not
important here, as we are only talking of Pandemonium, and definitely *not*
anything else outside Crawl. I'm not even sure such a small dungeon level
can even be created.
If you want to be more general, I'm afraid infinite dungeons are still a
requirement. That's why Pandemonium is the only place that applies here
(for Crawl).

>
>> To recap:
>>
>> 1. Food generation constant for each tile. Let the chance of finding
>> food
>> on a given tile is X, 0 < X < 1 (we already know X != 0 or 1).
>> 2. Therefore the chance of finding at least one portion of food on at
>> least
>> one tile out of a group of newly discovered tiles is (1-X)^n, where n is
>> the
>> number of newly discovered tiles.
>> 3. Therefore the most efficient way to find food quickly is to minimise
>> (1-X)^n. Since (1-X) < 1, this will become smaller for larger values of
>> n,
>> i.e. for the greater number of newly discovered tiles.
>> 4. This implies that the quickest (probabilistically) way to find food
>> is
>> to expose your character to the greatest number of unseen tiles each
>> turn.
>
> In practice: try not to include walls in the potential seen tiles, and
> move
> across instead of moving left/right/up/down. If you can't do the previous
> move to next level.
>

Outside Pandemonium all bets are off. Explore the whole level. This kind
of reasoning does of course still hold but Tina's original qualm of ``What
if I miss something...'' suddenly becomes extremely potent.

>
>> So IOW it has nothing to do with metabolism or regeneration or monster
>> race, but a simple chain of logic. One which Angband players surely know
>> quite well -- the whole principle of stair scumming is based on it, as
>> this
>> is *the* fastest way to minimise (1-X)^n.
>
> So - I guess in Angband the dungeon is not permament (at least by
> default).
> That's idea I don't like as not natural.
>

That's right. It is explained away of course but the gameplay
ramifications are enormous. Not all of them bad, sure, but some of them are
a little dubious.

--
Glen
L😛yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Glen Wheeler <gew75@uow.edu.au> roared:
> "Loonie" <loonie2@tlen.pl> wrote
>> Glen Wheeler .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>> Well, I don't think that's what Lars is trying to express.
>>
>> That was almost perfect digression from my side, it wasn't meant
>> to contradict Lars point.

> I was thrown off by your expression ``...in other words...''
> this means that you are attempting to rephrase the previous
> argument.

IMAO that shouldn't be taken too literally. Loonie's English is fine
and usually serves well to say what he means, but it's obviously not
his usual language, so it's better to assume a wider range of
interpretation of specific words, and some imagination. If in doubt,
he probably just made a bad choice of words.

>>> The idea is that the chance of food being created on a given
>>> dungeon tile is constant. The more dungeon tiles you see the
>>> greater the chance you find food. So to have the greatest
>>> chance of finding food, you need to expose yourself to the
>>> greatest number of *unexplored* tiles in the *shortest* amount
>>> of time.
>>
>> I think food is not the greatest problem in Pandemonium for most
>> characters, BTW.

> I was more attempting to explain Lars' point clearer for Tina,

In that case you failed because I couldn't make any sense of it.

> who did seem to be taking the worst possible approach to this
> problem in Pandemonium, and *is* having problems with food.

I also have problems recognizing the worthwhile levels. Exploring
all of each, with some trips I end up with less food, with some
trips I end up with more.

I only dip in and leave after a few levels, twice I found a gate
leading back to the dungeon, otherwise I go through the Abyss via
Banishment, haven't seen a gate to the Abyss yet.

That goes straight against any probabilities, afaik, as gates into
the Abyss are supposed to be more common than gates that lead back
to the normal dungeon, but probabilities make no sense to me anyway,
because when there's any chance, no matter how small, it exists.
It's 'on/off' rather than "Oh, that's soo unlikely, might as well
think it's impossible.". When you have a scale from 1 to 100 on a
ruler, the chance to hit any individual spot is the same for each
individual spot. Colouring 80% blue and 20% red doesn't change the
probability for individual red or blue spots getting hit. That I've
found a gate leading back to the dungeon in roughly somewhere
between 10% and 20% of the Pandemonium levels I visited this game
just proves that (I bet the probability for one appearing is much
smaller).

We're dealing with the Ravenous Neon Grinder here.

> The aim was that she could read it and amend her strategy.

I read it, but it could just as well have been written in Chinese.

>> It depends on the shape of dungeon - extreme case: imagine the
>> dungeon equivalent to character's view area with the stair in
>> the middle - by entering it you explore the whole dungeon, so
>> "one of the worst" is simultaneously the optimal one also. 🙂
>> Less extreme: take the level with a lot of space (shape similar
>> to Temple), if you are here it's better to explore it fully than
>> to move to another which is probabilistically worse to explore
>> (assuming it's the best one). So it's in your interest to fully
>> explore this one as it's easy this time.

> That's true. But the temple and the very very small dungeon
> level are not important here, as we are only talking of
> Pandemonium, and definitely *not* anything else outside Crawl.

There are similar levels in Pandemonium, where there's just an
intersection of wide corridors (plus-shaped, in other words).

> Outside Pandemonium all bets are off. Explore the whole level.
> This kind of reasoning does of course still hold but Tina's
> original qualm of ``What if I miss something...'' suddenly
> becomes extremely potent.

Well, it still stands. What if this level does have just the nifty
thing I was hoping for (like a cloak of preservation). Your
probabilities can't guarantee that it's not on the current level
before I checked every item. The chance that it's any item lying
around exists, no? The next level might be one with supposedly nifty
items, but I have no use for heavy armour and even more artifact
weapons with nifty abilities (found some in my stash yesterday, that
I had forgotten completely).

And how do I know some monster did not pick it up? What kind of
stuff do they pick up, anyway?

--
Tina the Tainter - the Favourite Plaything of the Raving Norwegian Gem

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_287e911c@fidonet.org...

> That goes straight against any probabilities, afaik, as gates into
> the Abyss are supposed to be more common than gates that lead back
> to the normal dungeon,

I think there's a premapped Pandemonium level that has 2 or 3 gates to the Abyss
in it. Not sure if I've ever seen them, otherwise.

> Well, it still stands. What if this level does have just the nifty
> thing I was hoping for (like a cloak of preservation). Your
> probabilities can't guarantee that it's not on the current level
> before I checked every item. The chance that it's any item lying
> around exists, no? The next level might be one with supposedly nifty
> items, but I have no use for heavy armour and even more artifact
> weapons with nifty abilities (found some in my stash yesterday, that
> I had forgotten completely).

What he meant was: Pandemonium is infinite. The chance of there being an item
on any square is the same, and the radius of your vision increases the most when
you first enter a level (say you see 60 squares when you enter the level. If
you take a step, you'll only increase the number of squares you've seen by 5 or
10). Therefore, the fastest way to amass items is just go from portal to portal
and pick up any items that you want. Chance would dictate that you'll find the
cloak of preservation faster doing this than exploring every level of
Pandemonium.

That doesn't actually look like playing the game to me, but there you go.

--
Jeremey

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jeremey Wilson <noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> bellowed:
> "Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote

>> That goes straight against any probabilities, afaik, as gates
>> into the Abyss are supposed to be more common than gates that
>> lead back to the normal dungeon,

> I think there's a premapped Pandemonium level that has 2 or 3
> gates to the Abyss in it. Not sure if I've ever seen them,
> otherwise.

Hmmm... I have vague memories of someone here mentioning going for
them, though. (Maybe that's because it's easier to get out of the
Abyss, though. I think I've got a new record, something like 4 moves
from my entry point was a gate, or maybe that was just after being
moved around inside the Abyss, not sure. Still hoping to
accidentally run into an abyssal rune, too.)

>> Well, it still stands. What if this level does have just the
>> nifty thing I was hoping for (like a cloak of preservation).
>> Your probabilities can't guarantee that it's not on the current
>> level before I checked every item. The chance that it's any item
>> lying around exists, no? The next level might be one with
>> supposedly nifty items, but I have no use for heavy armour and
>> even more artifact weapons with nifty abilities (found some in
>> my stash yesterday, that I had forgotten completely).

> What he meant was: Pandemonium is infinite. The chance of there
> being an item on any square is the same,

I'm not just interested in 'an item', but specific ones. Most items
are just useless junk to this character.

> and the radius of your vision increases the most when you first
> enter a level (say you see 60 squares when you enter the level.
> If you take a step, you'll only increase the number of squares
> you've seen by 5 or 10). Therefore, the fastest way to amass
> items is just go from portal to portal and pick up any items that
> you want.

And just amass a pile of junk while I miss the nifty item that's
lying around somewhere out of sight. Not very sensible. Besides,
I've got Detect Items, so the probability for an item for any square
is irrelevant, I can just head staight for the items. (At the moment
I'm testing whether using the crystal ball of seeing is really
necessary, as in not using it at present.)

> Chance would dictate that you'll find the cloak of preservation
> faster doing this than exploring every level of Pandemonium.

Chances are that I'll just miss the cloak of preservation this way.

> That doesn't actually look like playing the game to me, but there
> you go.

Exploring the entire level lets me gather experience, too, which is
the main reason I'm there, apart from hoping for some unusual runes
and some nifty objects. (Though I'd have expected it to be more
experience gathered, in relation to the time spent there.) With all
the little critters, or preferably green deaths, I can train
Fighting, Unarmed Combat and Dodging.

What I wonder about is why, when I have 2k+ (say, up to 10k)
experience to burn, and then cast Summon Horrible Things, why only a
tiny fraction of those Exp is used, instead of the entire load
dumped into the Summoning skill (or altenately some into
Spellcasting).

--
Tina the Crawling Barricade - a Follower of the Rhubarb Nutty Greebling