[SOLVED] Z97 Mobo for NVME Drive using PCIE 3.0 x4 while KEEPING Graphics Card @ PCIE 3.0 x16?

[hornirl]

Looking to extend longevity of my current LGA1150 socket setup (Specs: H87M-PRO i5-4690k 16GB RAM Win 10), with cheapest mobo possible that can allow for an NVME drive using PCIE 3.0 x4 lanes.

The kicker here is I want to keep the PCIE 3.0 1st slot at x16 lanes, for when I finally get that top graphics card that'll threaten to bottleneck it.

Looking around, that'd seem to imply an Z97 mobo to do the job, and there are some cards that have M2 solutions that might help, but everywhere I look I can't find a solution (M2 or PCIE) that allows me to use an NVME PCIE 3.0 x4 card WITHOUT dropping to x8 lanes for the graphics card.

One solution that looked promising was here (#2, #3), with an Ultra M.2 Socket using PCIE 3.0 x4 lanes (32 GB/s). But when I looked closer at board specs it too says when that M2 socket is used, the main PCIE slot also drops to x8 lanes.

Any ideas appreciated, though remember cash is short and I have to stick with what I have other than a change in mobo at lowest cost to sort a solution (if possible). If not I'll stick with the PCIE 2.0 x4 lanes solution I've got at present in the 2nd x16 slot using an adapter which does leave the 1st x16 slot operating at PCIE 3.0 x16 lanes, but doesn't give me the speed on the NVME drive it's capable of (PCIE 3.0 x4 lanes).

 

[USAFRet]

What do you use this system for?

An NVMe might not give you any real benefit vs a SATA III SSD.

 

[hornirl]

Video editing (I've a couple of SSDs already on the system), plus I'm thinking to use as Win 10 boot drive too (though not sure it'll improve boot times much). And might as well use it to its full PCIE 3.0 x 4 lanes potential if possible is my thought here, I like getting best bang/$ on hardware.

 

[USAFRet]

Video editing (I've a couple of SSDs already on the system), plus I'm thinking to use as Win 10 boot drive too (though not sure it'll improve boot times much). And might as well use it to its full PCIE 3.0 x 4 lanes potential if possible is my thought here, I like getting best bang/$ on hardware.

Boot time may reduce by a few seconds. And that is a poor reason for NVMe vs SATA SSD.

NVMe support in the Z97 world is spotty. Some boards can't boot from an NVMe, others need their latest BIOS.
But if you're changing motherboards, don't do it only for NVMe support.

For video editing, the rest of the system has much more effect than SATA SSD vs NVMe SSD. CPU and RAM.

 

[hotaru.hino]

For consumer boards, if the CPU doesn't provide a dedicated set of lanes for NVMe SSDs, then the lanes come from the chipset. And a way to tell if the CPU provides dedicated lanes for NVMe is if it has 24 lanes (assuming they count the 4 used for connecting to the chipset)

 

[hornirl]

Boot time may reduce by a few seconds. And that is a poor reason for NVMe vs SATA SSD.

NVMe support in the Z97 world is spotty. Some boards can't boot from an NVMe, others need their latest BIOS. But if you're changing motherboards, don't do it only for NVMe support.

For video editing, the rest of the system has much more effect than SATA SSD vs NVMe SSD. CPU and RAM.

Thanks and agreed. It's possible to mod the BIOS for most of these boards (including the H87M-PRO I have now, done, works great). I'm just maxing out what I can get off the 1150 socket platform really in order to get to VR (Oculus Quest 2) plus video editing. With an i7-4790K (en route) and a Z97 board that can run a PCIE 3.0 x16 graphics card and an NVME drive at PCIE 3.0 x4. I'm nearly there, just would like to find a Z97 board that can do this if it exists at all.

 

[hornirl]

For consumer boards, if the CPU doesn't provide a dedicated set of lanes for NVMe SSDs, then the lanes come from the chipset. And a way to tell if the CPU provides dedicated lanes for NVMe is if it has 24 lanes (assuming they count the 4 used for connecting to the chipset)

Thanks. This looks like the avenue (and Z97 mobo) I'm trying to find, one that can use the DMI 3.0 interface to the chipset for the NVME drive (PCIE 3.0 x4), leaving the PCIE 3.0 x16 direct link to the CPU for use of the graphics card. But is there such a Z97 animal?

 

[USAFRet]

Thanks and agreed. It's possible to mod the BIOS for most of these boards (including the H87M-PRO I have now, done, works great). I'm just maxing out what I can get off the 1150 socket platform really in order to get to VR (Oculus Quest 2) plus video editing. With an i7-4790K (en route) and a Z97 board that can run a PCIE 3.0 x16 graphics card and an NVME drive at PCIE 3.0 x4 I'm nearly there, just would like to find a Z97 board that can do this if it exists at all.

In my recently decommissioned Z97/i7-4790k/32GB system, I found almost NO difference between a SATA III SSD and an Intel 660p NVMe.
The Intel is not a great performer in the NVMe world, but it IS decidedly 'faster' (sequential) than the SATA III SSDs.

Video and photo editing...zero difference. Not just 'feels like', but in timed controlled tests.
The rest of the system has a major part in the process.

 

[hornirl]

In my recently decommissioned Z97/i7-4790k/32GB system, I found almost NO difference between a SATA III SSD and an Intel 660p NVMe. The Intel is not a great performer in the NVMe world, but it IS decidedly 'faster' (sequential) than the SATA III SSDs.

Video and photo editing...zero difference. Not just 'feels like', but in timed controlled tests.
The rest of the system has a major part in the process.

Thanks, that's really useful real world hands-on to know. Moving from H87 to Z97 then becomes more of a better quality mobo issue, but if I can get that PCIE 3.0 x4 spec for the NVME card while leaving the graphics card slot usable at PCIE 3.0 x16 that'd be great and why not if it exists?

If not I guess I'll manage with another solution, probably just making sure the 2nd PCIE slot I'm using is PCIE 3.0 x4 which will drops 1st slot to x8. It'll be a while before I get a new graphics card and have to worry about x16 at current prices, JC I could sell the card I bought 2 years ago today for twice what I paid for it.

 

[Math Geek]

the most important piece to me is the fact that if you actually found such a z97 mobo, it would likely cost $500 since this would be a high end model that is no longer in production. you'd either have to risk buying a used board or buying new stock that will cost WAY more than it is worth. that money is much better spent upgrading the full system rather than trying to keep that old system alive.

i still have a 4690k system in daily use and have looked myself for an itx board and can't find anything that is not crazy expensive so it staying on the atx board i have now.

 

[hornirl]

In my recently decommissioned Z97/i7-4790k/32GB system, I found almost NO difference between a SATA III SSD and an Intel 660p NVMe. The Intel is not a great performer in the NVMe world, but it IS decidedly 'faster' (sequential) than the SATA III SSDs.

BTW if I can ask, what Z97 did you have given you were using an NVME drive, and how did you have it wired up PCIE slot-wise? Thanks.

 

[Math Geek]

second thought is i am not even sure they made pcie m.2 slots back then. i believe they were only sata m.2 at that time. i could be wrong but i think i may be right.

my msi z97 gaming 5 is only a x2 sata m.2 slot and it is a solid mid level mobo from back then.

 

[USAFRet]

BTW if I can ask, what Z97 did you have given you were using an NVME drive, and how did you have it wired up PCIE slot-wise? Thanks.

Main parts in my sig line below, BigBrother. ASRock Z97M OC.
The Intel 660p was in a PCIe slot adapter as a secondary drive. OS remained on an 850 EVO.

The performance tests I did were with Adobe Lightroom.
10 RAW photos from my Fuji camera, with multiple edits. That edit all happens in RAM, so no drive issues either way.
Then, to test, writing out those edited images to different drives in the system. Intel 660p, brand new Samsung 860 EVO, 5 year old 840 EVO...

Full reboot in between each export, so that there was no cache issue.
Literally zero difference.

In the next few days, I'll be doing a similar test.
Parts list in my sig, under "Viper".
Comparing a Samsung 980 Pro, Intel 660p, and various SATA III SSDs.

Here is a good video to watch, regarding drives and perception:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DKLA7w9eeA

 

[hornirl]

the most important piece to me is the fact that if you actually found such a z97 mobo, it would likely cost $500 since this would be a high end model that is no longer in production. you'd either have to risk buying a used board or buying new stock that will cost WAY more than it is worth. that money is much better spent upgrading the full system rather than trying to keep that old system alive.

second thought is i am not even sure they made pcie m.2 slots back then. i believe they were only sata m.2 at that time. i could be wrong but i think i may be right.

my msi z97 gaming 5 is only a x2 sata m.2 slot and it is a solid mid level mobo from back then.

Actually prices aren't that bad used, if you can take the risk (I've been lucky). It's c125 or so for the ASRock Z97 Extreme6 I referenced in OP, which also has PCIE M.2 slots, though I don't think early Z97s did. Even Z97 ITXs can be had for 100-150.

 

[USAFRet]

Actually prices aren't that bad used, if you can take the risk (I've been lucky). It's c125 or so for the ASRock Z97 Extreme6 I referenced in OP, which also has PCIE M.2 slots, though I don't think early Z97s did. Even Z97 ITXs can be had for 100-150.

The M.2 port in my Z97 was only PCIe 2.0. Typical for that era.

 

[hornirl]

The M.2 port in my Z97 was only PCIe 2.0. Typical for that era.

In the Z97 universe, between not seeming to find a PCIE 3.0 x4 lane solution that leaves my PCIE 3.0 x 16 lane graphics card untouched (or down to x8 lane), and not seeing anything on the M2 side that helps other than giving me the PCIE 2.0 x4 I have already, I'm beginning to ask myself why switch up?

If a Z97 can't be found to do the job, my H87M-PRO already lets me use my PCIE 2.0 x16 lanes second slot for an NVME card with adapter, albeit down to PCIE 2.0 x 4 lanes. AND I can still use my PCIE 3.0 x16 lanes first slot for the graphics card with no lane loss. This seems as good as any Z97 solution is going to provide, M.2 or otherwise.

That'd be the same solution you used on your Z97. So then the Q becomes is it worth upgrading my H87M-PRO to say a Z87M-PLUS, just for the better component quality and (maybe?) help in OCing the i7-4790K (already done and working on the H87)? Z97 itself adds nothing over Z87 that I can really see hugely beneficial in my case, since the M.2 doesn't do what I need any better than using a PCIE slot in a Z87 (or H87).

So if no-one can suggest a Z97 solution in the next day or so, I'll start considering either staying H87 or just moving up to Z87.

 

[USAFRet]

I'm beginning to ask myself why switch up?

Personally, I wouldn't put any more $$ into that platform.

 

[Co BIY]

I don't think the upgrades you are proposing would be worth the effort but ...

My son is running a 4790k on a AsRock Z97 Extreme4 board and running an NVME SSD on a PCIE adapter card on the second of three PCIe 3.0x16 slots. He is able to boot from the drive on PCIe adapter.

He was running it on the board mounted M.2 (PCIe 2 x 2) prior to getting the adapter installed.

As I recall he said he couldn't feel much difference but the benchmarks do show it's faster. It was also hard to notice the change from SATA SSD to NVME. Each upgrade experiences diminishing returns.

I see some Z97 Extreme4s listed for ~$150 which is about $50 more than my son paid for his new at the end of the Z97 run.

 

[hornirl]

I don't think the upgrades you are proposing would be worth the effort but ... My son is running a 4790k on a AsRock Z97 Extreme4 board and running an NVME SSD on a PCIE adapter card on the second of three PCIe 3.0x16 slots. He is able to boot from the drive on PCIe adapter. He was running it on the board mounted M.2 (PCIe 2 x 2) prior to getting the adapter installed. As I recall he said he couldn't feel much difference but the benchmarks do show it's faster. It was also hard to notice the change from SATA SSD to NVME. Each upgrade experiences diminishing returns.

I see some Z97 Extreme4s listed for ~$150 which is about $50 more than my son paid for his new at the end of the Z97 run.

Thanks, I'm tending to agree.

And that switch makes sense going from M.2 @ PCIE 2.0 x 2 lanes to adaptered slot 2 PCIE 3.0 x 2 lanes for 2 x speed. But it will drop slot 1 PCIE 3.0 x 16 lanes to x 8 lanes. Not a problem until you need PCIE 3.0 x 16 lanes (again) for something like an RTX 2080 Ti GC. That's what I'm trying to futureproof against by getting an adaptered NVME boot drive on PCIE 3.0 x 4 lanes while keeping the GC on a PCIE 3.0 x 16 lanes.

And others are saying real world performance benefits are negligible too, so maybe I'm dancing on head of a pin here, and stick with current solution- PCIE 2.0 x 4 lanes for drive with PCIE 3.0 x 16 lanes for GC on my ASUS H87M-PRO or maybe go up to Z87M-PLUS which I can get for c90 for better quality components and OC support.

 

[hornirl]

Personally, I wouldn't put any more $$ into that platform.

Agreed, since we found a winner at thread here- the ASRock Z97 Extreme9, albeit at a cost that's just too high. From the post:

On the right trail there with Ultra M.2 and the ASRock Z97 Extreme6, just the extra distance to the Extreme9 never showed anywhere in any DB I looked at.

Now this exotic creature- the ASRock Z97 Extreme9- has been tracked down I do see it in PCPartPicker, I may have just passed it over as it's got so many bells and whistles I don't need and something of a 'cludgy' solution (PEX 8747 PCIe bridge) to get the functionality I want (as described here). Besides which the board provides 4xPCIE 3.0 x 16 lanes, 2 of which could be used at full PCIE 3.0 x16 lanes, so the Ultra M.2 solution then becomes redundant itself for my use case anyway.

And at over 400 for where I could find it (only 1!) I'd be well on my way to a new rig. The above and links are for those following in my tracks and I'd agree with the suggestion that it'd be better to do a full upgrade for the $s than go this route. For the moment I'll stick with my ASUS H87M-PRO or maybe go up to Z87M-PLUS which I can get for c90 for better quality components and OC support. Both can put an NMVE drive in a PCIE 2.0 x 4 lanes slot, and as a Win 10 boot drive with a modded BIOS too. Thanks to all for help here.