Question PWM Fan hub only controls 1 fan, not all.

Aug 4, 2023
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I recently upgraded my PC with new fans and watercooling.

I have the water pump connected to the main CPU_FAN header, and can control that perfectly.

I have 5 fans of the same model PWM noctua fan. They're hooked up to the CHA_FAN1 header, through a Thermaltake PWM fan hub. MB is ASUS PBZ69- V PRO.

The fan in the "control port" in the hub can be speed controlled, the rest cannot.

I also tried an Arctic PWM Hub, with same results. Also tried switching the fans around in the hub, which just results in another fan being controlled, and the rest still going full tilt.

Program i use is "Fan Control".
 
Aug 4, 2023
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Have you tried putting the tt hub on cpu_fan and the pump on sys fan 1 ?

Very curious as I have 7 noctua 140's IPPC's on the same hub but on cpu fan header.
Tried switching them. Then the fans became controllable, pump became uncontrollable.

Had a look through the MB manual then, and ofc the CHA_FAN1 header, although being 4pin, is not a PWM output :rolleyes:

DAmc8tt.jpg

I have now connected pump to CPU_FAN_OPT, and fans to CPU_FAN. They're now all controllable, just not individually. Anyone got any idea if its possible to control them individually?
 

Paperdoc

Polypheme
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Do not swap connections around as suggested above by Crosslhs82x2.

You say that you have found out (how?) that the CHA_FAN1 header, although fitted with 4 pins, does NOT use the new PWM signal system. I suspected that - some older mobos did this in the early days of the introduction of 4-pin fans. That means you can NOT use any HUB for this, but you can arrange to use SPLITTERS.

A SPLITTER is a simple device that connects all its fans in parallel to one mobo header so they all share the power supplied by that header. The all do exactly the same thing, and there is a limit that the total amperage load of all fans on that one header cannot exceed 1.0 A max. You have not told us the exact model of Noctua fans, but most of theirs use no more than 0.15 A max, so 3 or 4 on one header using a Splitter will be OK.

A HUB such as you have tried works differently. It gets power for fans directly from the PSU and avoids the 1.0 A limit. BUT it MUST have a PWM signal from the host mobo header, and it can be used only with 4-pin PWM type fans. That will not work with your mobo.

I suggest a couple of Splitters like this


That's a 2-pack of 3-output Splitters. Use one on each of your CHA_FAN headers (yes, they will fit on a 3-pin header) and connect 2 or 3 Noctua fans to each. In BIOS Setup you can configure both headers exactly the same (see manual p 3-26 and 27). If you choose the Standard Profile for both they will do the same. IF you want to make the two headers do something different, change one or both to Manual Profile, and then for each set your own pairs of values for min temp and speed, and max temp and speed. When you use a Hub or Splitter, ALL fans connected to one header will do the same thing - no individual fan control. But since you will use two headers it is possible to make those two different if you need to.

You have not provided details of the PUMP, which I presume is part of a AIO liquid cooling system. In almost all such systems the design intends that the PUMP component will operate at full speed all the time, whereas the FANS on the rad have their speed controlled by the CPU_FAN (or CPU_OPT) header. That puts all control of CPU chip temperature done by the fans, NOT by changing the speed of the pump. In your case, those two headers are identical in their action. However, in MANY AIO cooler systems the cable from the PUMP is a THREE-wire cable with THREE holes in its connector, so that pump WILL operate at full speed always when connected to a CPU_FAN header using the new PWM Mode of control. In BIOS Setup you will see that the pump speed is constant at full speed, but the rad FANS you plug into the CPU_OPT header will change their speeds according to CPU chip temperature.

An important secondary function of most fan headers is to monitor the speed signal returned to it from its fan for FAILURE - that is, NO speed signal. Such a problem gets you a prominent message on screen. But for the CPU_FAN header particularly (and MAYBE for CPU_OPT) the action at failure is bigger. It may shut down your system completely in a short time without even waiting for the temp reading in the CPU chip to go high. This is to prevent catastrophic damage to the CPU if there is no cooling. So you should plug the PUMP into the CPU_FAN header because that is the most important item in cooling with an AIO system. Then the CPU_OPT header can monitor the RAD FANS for possible failure there.
 
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Aug 4, 2023
6
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You say that you have found out (how?) that the CHA_FAN1 header, although fitted with 4 pins, does NOT use the new PWM signal system. I suspected that - some older mobos did this in the early days of the introduction of 4-pin fans. That means you can NOT use any HUB for this, but you can arrange to use SPLITTERS.
From a look in the manual, look at the pic i posted further up. The top most pin on CHA_FAN1 is labeled +5V, and not PWM. Very weird how it can control the speed of one PWM fan.

Fans are "NF-A14 PWM chromax.black.swap". Pump is EK-Quantum Kinetic TBE 200 D5 PWM D-RGB - Acetal, its a real watercooling setup.

Right now I'm looking at getting a Razer PWM PC Fan Controller to be able to control pump and fans individually.
 
Aug 4, 2023
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While you are in bios are you in Ez mode or Advanced mode ?

From what I can see advanced mode with Q fan enabled gives you 4 speed options for chassis fan.

You can look in section 3.6 Monitor Menu
I have it in advanced mode. There is no option to separate the 2 CPU fans.

KoWcdh4.jpg
 

Paperdoc

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You commented, "Very weird how it can control the speed of one PWM fan." Here's why.

As designed, a PWM type of fan is supplied from header Pin #2 with a constant 12 VDC power supply. It also has a special chip inside the fan that receives the PWM signal from Pin #4. It uses that signal to modify the flow of power from that fixed source through the motor windings to alter the motor speed. So, what happens when such a fan is connected to an older 3-pin header that uses Voltage Control Mode? In that mode, the fan receives NO PWM signal from Pin #4 (even if there is such a pin, as yours has) so the chip cannot modify power flow. However, in that Mode the header supplies power on Pin #2 that VARIES from 12VDC for full speed down to about 5 VDC for minimum speed without stalling. With that as its power supply, the PWM fan motor's speed is STILL controlled as if it were a 3-pin fan.

Now, enter the HUB with several fans. What a Hub does is get from the host header the PWM signal from Pin #4, and return to the host header via Pin #3 the speed signal ONLY of the fan that is plugged into its marked header (often Port #1). The speeds of all the other fan are ignored. Then it gets fan POWER directly from the PSU via a connection to a SATA power output connector from that PSU. That is, it gets Ground and a fixed 12 VDC supply. It connects those two to the pins on every output port, so they never use any power from the host header. So every fan receives the fixed 12 VDC power supply a PWM fan would expect, and it gets the PWM signal the Hub got from the mobo header. BUT in your case that header did NOT supply a PWM signal, so none of the fans' speeds could be controlled! However, it appears that, in your case, the Hubs you had do connect the Voltage (Pin #2) and Ground (Pin #1) from the host header to ONLY output Port #1. Thus that one fan CAN have its speed controlled by the header, whether the fan is an older 3-pin Voltage Control type or a newer 4-pin PWM type.)

That "5VDC" label on header Pin #4 in the manual is a confusing one. A PWM signal in this situation is like a square wave - it is either fully on or fully off. But, whereas a square wave is ON exactly 50% of the time, a PWM wave's "% ON" value ranges anywhere from 0% to 100%. It is the % ON value that is the information it carries. For computer case PWM fans, that signal is around 22kHz frequency, and 5 VDC amplitude. So some old mobo manuals used that "5 VDC" label to mark the pin that does (or should) carry the PWM wave signal. Poor labelling, I think.

And here I'll offer my own critical opinion. When PWM fans were first introduced, one of their features is that, when plugged into an older 3-pin header that can ONLY use the Voltage Control Mode, they still work with their speed controlled. (See explanation above.) This is one of the backwards compatibility features (the other is the ability to fit connectors to headers) that made introduction of this design in the market easy. Mobo makers were supposed to add new 4-pin PWM headers to their designs. However, SOME early designs put 4-pin headers on the board BUT connected them only to older Voltage Control Mode controller chips that provided standard 3-pin signals to the header and ignored Pin #4 entirely. Most users did not know about this because the new fans worked on the new 4-pin headers! In my view, those were "fake" 4-pin headers.

So you do have a "real watercooling setup." And indeed the fans you cite are PWM design. I presume some of those are on the rad, but perhaps not all. So here comes another reason to split up the fans into separate groups for CPU cooling and case cooling using two (or more) Splitters on different headers. The CPU_FAN and CPU_OPT headers use a temperature sensor inside the CPU chip to guide their action in the automatic "Standard" Profile setting. The CHA_FAN1 and 2 headers use a different sensor on the motherboard, so they are ideal to control the CASE ventilation fans. Using two headers for different fan functional groups is best.

Here's a caution about pump speed. In a liquid-cooled CPU system there are TWO major factors that impact the rate of heat removal from the CPU chip. One is the rate of fluid flow (via the pump) around the loop. The other is the rate of heat removal from the water by the fans blowing air over the rad fins. Those two systems have different gain factors and different response times. IF you try to have the measured CPU temperture as the basis of automatic control of BOTH of those factors, they end up "chasing each other". That is, both will increase speed and heat removal, but the increase in the rate of heat removal from water flow rate will be different from the change in heat removal rate by the fan air flow. So temperture decreases quickly from one, followed by a further decrease from the other. That makes the temp reduction too much, so they both start to reverse their action. Again, the combination happens in two stages and overdoes it, and this just keeps going around. The simple solution is NOT to have BOTH items change automatically as CPU temperture changes, and usually it is the pump speed that is kept constant. The compromise here, though, is that "constant" is simple if it is always full spped, and that might not match ALL your use patterns. A more sophisticated approach is for the PUMP speed to be set manually to a fixed value and allow the fan speeds to alter automatically in response to CPU temp. BUT as the USER, YOU can make a judgement of what that fixed speed should be, and YOU can make infrequent manual changes in PUMP speed according to your assessment of workload so that the fans do have the ability to handle the heat load within their possible speed range. Given your plan to get a sophisticated fan controller with several separate channels for separate fan groups, you will have that ability.
 
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As Always Great Job Paperdoc!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Corsair Commander Core XT has come down in price since I got the one I have for my custom loop.
On Amazon or at any local Best Buy $49.99

I just ordered another 1 for my son's rig as my approx 3-3.5 yr old H150i E C Commander Core just went out.
Without that commander core the h150i is nothing but a paper weight.
I have pump res combo and Wb already, and waiting on shipping of the rad. (then NO MORE AIO's)
Good thing I had a buckup cooler.
 
Aug 4, 2023
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You commented, "Very weird how it can control the speed of one PWM fan." Here's why.

"Giant wall of text" :p
Ahh yes that makes sense, your explanation as to why it could control one fan through the hub.

I went and got the Razer controller, i might've been able to use the MB to control the fans, but the Razer controller saves on the hassle.

Great tip on the water cooling system chasing its own tail if you use a curve on both fans and pump. I've now just put the pump on 100%, luckily the pump only ever really makes any noise when it changes speed, so going full tilt is not a problem.

Now it finally only turns the fans on under load! And doesn't sound like its about to take off all the time :ROFLMAO:

j0rebb5.jpg

yW4aePe.jpg
 
Aug 9, 2023
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You commented, "Very weird how it can control the speed of one PWM fan." Here's why.

As designed, a PWM type of fan is supplied from header Pin #2 with a constant 12 VDC power supply. It also has a special chip inside the fan that receives the PWM signal from Pin #4. It uses that signal to modify the flow of power from that fixed source through the motor windings to alter the motor speed. So, what happens when such a fan is connected to an older 3-pin header that uses Voltage Control Mode? In that mode, the fan receives NO PWM signal from Pin #4 (even if there is such a pin, as yours has) so the chip cannot modify power flow. However, in that Mode the header supplies power on Pin #2 that VARIES from 12VDC for full speed down to about 5 VDC for minimum speed without stalling. With that as its power supply, the PWM fan motor's speed is STILL controlled as if it were a 3-pin fan.

Now, enter the HUB with several fans. What a Hub does is get from the host header the PWM signal from Pin #4, and return to the host header via Pin #3 the speed signal ONLY of the fan that is plugged into its marked header (often Port #1). The speeds of all the other fan are ignored. Then it gets fan POWER directly from the PSU via a connection to a SATA power output connector from that PSU. That is, it gets Ground and a fixed 12 VDC supply. It connects those two to the pins on every output port, so they never use any power from the host header. So every fan receives the fixed 12 VDC power supply a PWM fan would expect, and it gets the PWM signal the Hub got from the mobo header. BUT in your case that header did NOT supply a PWM signal, so none of the fans' speeds could be controlled! However, it appears that, in your case, the Hubs you had do connect the Voltage (Pin #2) and Ground (Pin #1) from the host header to ONLY output Port #1. Thus that one fan CAN have its speed controlled by the header, whether the fan is an older 3-pin Voltage Control type or a newer 4-pin PWM type.)

That "5VDC" label on header Pin #4 in the manual is a confusing one. A PWM signal in this situation is like a square wave - it is either fully on or fully off. But, whereas a square wave is ON exactly 50% of the time, a PWM wave's "% ON" value ranges anywhere from 0% to 100%. It is the % ON value that is the information it carries. For computer case PWM fans, that signal is around 22kHz frequency, and 5 VDC amplitude. So some old mobo manuals used that "5 VDC" label to mark the pin that does (or should) carry the PWM wave signal. Poor labelling, I think.

And here I'll offer my own critical opinion. When PWM fans were first introduced, one of their features is that, when plugged into an older 3-pin header that can ONLY use the Voltage Control Mode, they still work with their speed controlled. (See explanation above.) This is one of the backwards compatibility features (the other is the ability to fit connectors to headers) that made introduction of this design in the market easy. Mobo makers were supposed to add new 4-pin PWM headers to their designs. However, SOME early designs put 4-pin headers on the board BUT connected them only to older Voltage Control Mode controller chips that provided standard 3-pin signals to the header and ignored Pin #4 entirely. Most users did not know about this because the new fans worked on the new 4-pin headers! In my view, those were "fake" 4-pin headers.

So you do have a "real watercooling setup." And indeed the fans you cite are PWM design. I presume some of those are on the rad, but perhaps not all. So here comes another reason to split up the fans into separate groups for CPU cooling and case cooling using two (or more) Splitters on different headers. The CPU_FAN and CPU_OPT headers use a temperature sensor inside the CPU chip to guide their action in the automatic "Standard" Profile setting. The CHA_FAN1 and 2 headers use a different sensor on the motherboard, so they are ideal to control the CASE ventilation fans. Using two headers for different fan functional groups is best.

Here's a caution about pump speed. In a liquid-cooled CPU system there are TWO major factors that impact the rate of heat removal from the CPU chip. One is the rate of fluid flow (via the pump) around the loop. The other is the rate of heat removal from the water by the fans blowing air over the rad fins. Those two systems have different gain factors and different response times. IF you try to have the measured CPU temperture as the basis of automatic control of BOTH of those factors, they end up "chasing each other". That is, both will increase speed and heat removal, but the increase in the rate of heat removal from water flow rate will be different from the change in heat removal rate by the fan air flow. So temperture decreases quickly from one, followed by a further decrease from the other. That makes the temp reduction too much, so they both start to reverse their action. Again, the combination happens in two stages and overdoes it, and this just keeps going around. The simple solution is NOT to have BOTH items change automatically as CPU temperture changes, and usually it is the pump speed that is kept constant. The compromise here, though, is that "constant" is simple if it is always full spped, and that might not match ALL your use patterns. A more sophisticated approach is for the PUMP speed to be set manually to a fixed value and allow the fan speeds to alter automatically in response to CPU temp. BUT as the USER, YOU can make a judgement of what that fixed speed should be, and YOU can make infrequent manual changes in PUMP speed according to your assessment of workload so that the fans do have the ability to handle the heat load within their possible speed range. Given your plan to get a sophisticated fan controller with several separate channels for separate fan groups, you will have that ability.
Thank you for this. I am having my own issues and this seems to be helping me to figure it out. I can't wait to get home and read more on these forums so that I can finally get my pc up and running.

Best wishes to you all! You are very helpful.
V/r,
Pystal