A few questions about installed water cooler.

[Archer27]

So tonight I installed my water cooler(Lepa Aquachanger 240) and for my first liquid cooling install I think I did a decent job.

I removed the CPU from it's socket to clean the old paste off more effectively and am powering the pump directly from the power supply via Sata/Peripirhal to Molex .

Upon booting up after the change I got a few messages:

"Overclock failed"
"Asus anti-surge was triggered to protect system from unstable power supply"
"Keyboard"
"New Processor Installed"

After a reboot, these messages went away and haven't come back. Is it because I reseated the CPU and added the pump and 2 radiator fans to the electrical load? Is it normal? Should I be concerned?

Power supply is stable, voltages read what they are supposed to. VCCIN has actually increased from 1690 to 1740 at idle however actual core voltage remains roughly the same as before.

Ran Short FFT in Prime 95 for 10 mins, stable with core temps maxing out at 58c...much better than before.

 

[Archer27]

Reposted per your instructions.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Much better. I don't know how soon he'll reply, but I'm pretty sure he will as soon as he has a chance. We have no way of knowing when each other is online, and he doesn't hang out too much in the moderator areas, but he's pretty good about pitching in when it's a water cooling question. He specializes more in custom loops, but he knows his stuff so he'll know one way or another. I'm going to say it shouldn't be like that, because I find it hard to believe that the cooler was designed to touch the caps since each different board will have different spacings, but again, I'm not certain enough to say so without any doubt.

 

[Archer27]

Much better. I don't know how soon he'll reply, but I'm pretty sure he will as soon as he has a chance. We have no way of knowing when each other is online, and he doesn't hang out too much in the moderator areas, but he's pretty good about pitching in when it's a water cooling question. He specializes more in custom loops, but he knows his stuff so he'll know one way or another. I'm going to say it shouldn't be like that, because I find it hard to believe that the cooler was designed to touch the caps since each different board will have different spacings, but again, I'm not certain enough to say so without any doubt.

I trust he will pitch in.

As for touching the caps...I did notice my MOBO temp went down 2 degrees since installation as well. I would think that's a good thing?
Caps store electricalenergy and energy is heat. Logical right?
The installation guide actually did mention cap interference and in poor english nicely and basically said "dont crush the caps"

 

[Archer27]

"*Some MB put the capacitors around the boarder of CPU bracket, please carefully install the
cooler on can avoid the mechanical interference."

Word for word

 

[Darkbreeze]

Yeah, I'm somewhat worried that perhaps your dips are due to VRM throttling since that water block is partially covering them and any case airflow is probably reduced in that area due to that. Hopefully there is no damage. If you have a box fan or small room fan, maybe try taking the side panel off and pointing towards the VRMs, which consist partially of the caps in that area, and see if you get the same drops in game that you are now.

This is a pretty common problem on FX-9xxx series chips, because they run so hot they pretty much require liquid cooling or the very highest end air coolers, neither of which tends to offer a whole lot of airflow directly on the motherboard or VRMs and generally results in the overheating of the VRMs throttling CPU function.

You might also open HWinfo while playing and try to see if when you experience the FPS drops, if the CPU clock speed is being reduced as well.

 

[rubix_1011]

It looks like the block is resting on top of the caps on your board. However, I cannot quite tell if there is clearance from the top of the caps and the bottom of the block or bracket. Did it look like (when you pulled the block) that the thermal paste spread evenly over the CPU, or was one side lacking coverage?

 

[Archer27]

Yeah, I'm somewhat worried that perhaps your dips are due to VRM throttling since that water block is partially covering them and any case airflow is probably reduced in that area due to that. Hopefully there is no damage. If you have a box fan or small room fan, maybe try taking the side panel off and pointing towards the VRMs, which consist partially of the caps in that area, and see if you get the same drops in game that you are now.

This is a pretty common problem on FX-9xxx series chips, because they run so hot they pretty much require liquid cooling or the very highest end air coolers, neither of which tends to offer a whole lot of airflow directly on the motherboard or VRMs and generally results in the overheating of the VRMs throttling CPU function.

You might also open HWinfo while playing and try to see if when you experience the FPS drops, if the CPU clock speed is being reduced as well.

I see. I'll be honest I had to look what VRM is up lol. In any case, wouldn't that have shown in Prime 95 testing?
I was getting a constant core clock and voltages. Also the MOBO temp was maxing out at 28c.
Do games put more strain on the VRM than Prime 95?

 

[Archer27]

It looks like the block is resting on top of the caps on your board. However, I cannot quite tell if there is clearance from the top of the caps and the bottom of the block or bracket. Did it look like (when you pulled the block) that the thermal paste spread evenly over the CPU, or was one side lacking coverage?

Indeed. There is no clearance from the brackets(which is actually what is touching the caps). The part of the block that is copper however, has no contact with them at all.
When I pulled the block to check thermal paste distribution, it was spread evenly, the caps aren't raising one side of the block.

 

[Archer27]

Pulled out my trusty infrared thermometer that I use on cars regularly at work.
Directed it towards the VRM capacitor area and sure enough the temps are consistent with the BIOS, even under load.

I ran a GPU intensive test as well as Prime 95 again. Core clock frenquency, voltage AND temp stayed constant with no throttling.

Unless games put some other type of strain on the VRM...

 

[rubix_1011]

Right, but my question was more along the lines of whether the caps are actually preventing the block from actually seating well on the CPU. Yes, you might have thermal paste spread, but you might not have complete contact across the entire IHS.

Assuming that you aren't overheating or having issues with load temps, it seems from your very first post that you were able to get it setup correctly. Just to catch all the way up - what are your current issues?

 

[Archer27]

Right, but my question was more along the lines of whether the caps are actually preventing the block from actually seating well on the CPU. Yes, you might have thermal paste spread, but you might not have complete contact across the entire IHS.

Assuming that you aren't overheating or having issues with load temps, it seems from your very first post that you were able to get it setup correctly. Just to catch all the way up - what are your current issues?

Understood and no, it seems it is well seated, in fact my idle temps are 19c-21c on all cores and prime 95 load temps don't exceed 58c.

My primary issue is framerate stutter in games. Happens in all games, online games are the worst.
However some spikes have been smoothed out by working with Darkbreeze, but they are still there and prominent enough to bother me.
I run games on Ultra at 1080p in almost all cases. The FPS drop doesn't correspond to CPU or GPU load or temp.

We... seem to be chasing a phantom.

 

[techgeek]

Have you been monitoring your CPU usage when these stutters occur? If it's shooting to 100% or 100% on the core(s) the game has affinity with, that would suggest that the CPU or something to do with the CPU is throttling.

Also what does your GPU usage look like when these drops in framerate occur? Is your GPU usage consistently at 100% or is it lower and jump to something higher when the stutter occurs. It couldn't hurt to monitor your clock on the GPU and CPU. Something has to be bottlenecking.

Lets say you were to sit in one location in the game and not move, do these framerate drops occur, or is it just when you are moving around?

 

[Archer27]

Have you been monitoring your CPU usage when these stutters occur? If it's shooting to 100% or 100% on the core(s) the game has affinity with, that would suggest that the CPU or something to do with the CPU is throttling.

Also what does your GPU usage look like when these drops in framerate occur? Is your GPU usage consistently at 100% or is it lower and jump to something higher when the stutter occurs. It couldn't hurt to monitor your clock on the GPU and CPU. Something has to be bottlenecking.

Lets say you were to sit in one location in the game and not move, do these framerate drops occur, or is it just when you are moving around?

The highest I've seen CPU usage even during stutters is 90%...and that was in Lion's Arch in GW2 which as most know is horribly CPU intensive.

Stutters occur even when CPU usage is at 30-40%.

Usually it's when moving...especially when turning the camera or looking in certain directions into the distance, particularly in GW2. Camera turn drops aren't as bad in the other games.

I have confirmed the CPU is not throttling under load, and the VRM is nice and cool via the most reliable method I could think of(infrared thermometer).

GPU usage ranges between 30-80% and GPU memory usage is fine.

The stutter doesn't correspond to either from what I can tell.

The only time I've ever seen 100% usage on individual cores or the CPU as a whole was during Prime 95 testing.

My GPU memory clock is stable(3505) and it's core clock is also a good stable (1405)

 

[Darkbreeze]

Do you have this problem in other games, or just the one game?

 

[Archer27]

Do you have this problem in other games, or just the one game?

Different games to varying degrees. I actually just ended a gaming session.

Usually as I've said, online games are the worst.

I've constantly monitored usage while playing this evening and it would seem there is no throttling, no overheating, CPU and GPU usage were reasonable and never went over 80%.

I logged with GPU-Z and the clock and memory speed never faltered on my card while playing.

Motherboard temp maxed at 30c and was 26c average

All other programs are lightning fast, no slowdowns at all.

My lowest fps reading tonight was 25fps(which then shot into the 30s/40s after the camera settled) in a highly saturated Lion's Arch(GW2). This is where my CPU usage hit the 80th percentile.

Other than that, 50-60 with occasional dips into the high 40s when drawing LOD.
Tested on 3 total games tonight
MGSV
Street Fighter V
GW2

 

[Archer27]

Right after gaming, I also ran Heaven, here are the results:

 

[techgeek]

Just for comparison here is mine:

I think I've matched your settings though it's hard to tell what Custom encompasses for you. I used everything set to the highest @ 1080p. One thing you should be aware of, the first time I ran through the benchmark, it hitched when it went from the daylight scenes to the first night scene. My minimum was actually lower than yours (8.7 or something like that), then I ran it again and got this. I'm thinking it ran smoother the second time because everything was cached. The low minimum didn't affect the overall score though, they were a couple of points different. Heaven is out to lunch on the GPU clock though. Afterburner reports it as 1316, but Heaven has it at 1443, the memory frequencies matched though. I believe Afterburner before I'd believe Heaven.

In just a bit I'll get you one from my son's system. He has the same CPU, but he has a 770GTX which is probably pretty comparable to your 960.

 

[Archer27]

Just for comparison here is mine:

I think I've matched you settings though it's hard to tell what Custom encompasses for you. I used everything set to the highest @ 1080p. One thing you should be aware of, the first time I ran through the benchmark, it hitched when it went from the daylight scenes to the first night scene. My minimum was actually lower than yours (8.7 or something like that), then I ran it again and got this. I'm thinking it ran smoother the second time because everything was cached. The low minimum didn't affect the overall score though, they were a couple of points different.

In just a bit I'll get you one from my son's system. He has the same CPU, but he has a 770GTX which is probably pretty comparable to your 960.

Occasionally I have gotten that same hangup at the same spot(where day turns to night)
What is your son's 4460 running at? I'm running at 3.5ghz(stable)

 

[techgeek]

Here is my son's results:

Have you changed the base clock from 100MHz? Changing your base clock can put other bus clocks out of spec (PCI_E, SATA, etc) this could cause other problems. Have a look at this article:

Haswell and Devil's Canyon Overclocking

This is an important excerpt from that:

If you have a CPU without “K” suffix, you have to increas the Base-Clock to overclock your system. Usually I don’t recommend this, because the BCLK is tied to the PCI-Express clock and DMI-Connections which can cause instabilities even though your CPU is still stable at the given core clock.

So you could be throwing out your PCI-E clock and causing issues with your graphics card. It could even result in data corruption on your HDD / SSD's.

 

[Archer27]

Here is my son's results:

Have you changed the base clock from 100MHz?

Yup, it's 103mhz. The multiplier is locked on 34x so roughly 3.502ghz is what I'm running constantly.
I've had the base clock this way since I built the thing. I get what your saying though. But beofre there were unlocked multipliers the base clock and voltages are all people had right?

 

[Darkbreeze]

What are your full system specs? Include all drive models.

Also, are you running games/steam off a secondary drive/not the OS drive? Are your games installed on an older/slower hard drive?

Might be worthwhile to run Seatools for windows on all attached drives. In some few cases I've seen drives cause some pretty unusual problems that didn't really seem like they would be drive related, but were. Run the short DST (Drive self test) and the Long generic, on all connected drives. The long generic will probably take several hours, so you may want to run it while your asleep or gone for the day.

 

[Archer27]

What are your full system specs? Include all drive models.

Also, are you running games/steam off a secondary drive/not the OS drive? Are your games installed on an older/slower hard drive?

Might be worthwhile to run Seatools for windows on all attached drives. In some few cases I've seen drives cause some pretty unusual problems that didn't really seem like they would be drive related, but were. Run the short DST (Drive self test) and the Long generic, on all connected drives. The long generic will probably take several hours, so you may want to run it while your asleep or gone for the day.

The only thing that runs off my SSD is the OS. Everything else runs off a regular 7200rpm HDD. Both drives are brand new. All the parts are brand new in this computer.

My entire system:

CPU: Intel I5 4460 @3.5ghz
Motherboard: Asus Z97-E/USB 3.1
PSU: Seasonic 760W Platinum SS-760XP2
Case: Rosewill Stryker M ATX
Graphics: EVGA GeForce GTX 960 SSC GAMING ACX 2.0+ 2GB
RAM: Corsair Vengeance Pro 16GB DDR3 1600
SSD: Sandisk 240GB SDSSDA-240G-G25
HDD: WD Blue 1TB Desktop Hard Disk Drive - 7200 RPM SATA 6 Gb/s 64MB Cache 3.5 Inch - WD10EZEX - OEM
Disc Drive: Asus DVD/RW
Wireless Card: Asus PCE-AC56 802.11ac Dual-band Wireless-AC1300 PCI-E Adapter
Keyboard/Mouse: CM Storm Devastator
OS: Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit
Cooling: LEPA Aquachanger 240
Monitor: ASUS VS Series VS228H-P Black 21.5" 5ms HDMI LED Backlight Widescreen LCD Monitor

 

[techgeek]

Here is my son's results:

Have you changed the base clock from 100MHz?

Yup, it's 103mhz. The multiplier is locked on 34x so roughly 3.502ghz is what I'm running constantly.
I've had the base clock this way since I built the thing. I get what your saying though. But beofre there were unlocked multipliers the base clock and voltages are all people had right?

Those architectures were different and the BCLK (which was known as FSB) wasn't tied to the other buses. Now with the way Intel has the buses set up, making changes to the BCLK will affect all the other buses. The PCI-E bus and SATA clocks are especially sensitive to BCLK changes.

Granted you are only adding 3MHz, but it's never a good thing to waste a bunch of time troubleshooting a problem without looking at the white elephant in the room. If anything is out of spec, you return it to spec (including XMP profiles) and see if the problem goes away.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Granted you are only adding 3MHz, but it's never a good thing to waste a bunch of time troubleshooting a problem without looking at the white elephant in the room. If anything is out of spec, you return it to spec (including XMP profiles) and see if the problem goes away.

Absolutely correct.

 

[Archer27]

Here is my son's results:

Have you changed the base clock from 100MHz?

Yup, it's 103mhz. The multiplier is locked on 34x so roughly 3.502ghz is what I'm running constantly.
I've had the base clock this way since I built the thing. I get what your saying though. But beofre there were unlocked multipliers the base clock and voltages are all people had right?

Those architectures were different and the BCLK (which was known as FSB) wasn't tied to the other buses. Now with the way Intel has the buses set up, making changes to the BCLK will affect all the other buses. The PCI-E bus and SATA clocks are especially sensitive to BCLK changes.

Granted you are only adding 3MHz, but it's never a good thing to waste a bunch of time troubleshooting a problem without looking at the white elephant in the room. If anything is out of spec, you return it to spec (including XMP profiles) and see if the problem goes away.

Right and I get that, but the thing is I already tryed going back to full stock including disabling XMP and the stock clock. Made no difference in relation to the problem of framerates.

As stated, I've had XMP and 3.5ghz from when I built it and hadn't had an issue until last week.

After the clean install of Windows suggested by Darkbreeze, I ran on stock settings for a night of gaming with no improvement.