Question Advice on large storage drive, and backups needed ?

[Compused]

I've been using a WD elements 5tb external drive as my storage drive for pretty much everything. It's connected to a thinkpad w530 (which has a very small internal 2.5" sdd, for os and programs).
It's almost completely full now, and I've been trying to think of the best route to not only upgrade to a larger sized storage drive, but find a good solution to also back up whatever I end up choosing (ie: I'll have to get two of whatever I decide on).
I did look up a "top hdd" list or two for ideas. I learned about cmr and smr, and cmr being the better.
I'd likely being using this drive for everything other than os and apps/programs, that means I'll be putting music and movies on it too, and I'll be watching movies from said drive.

With all that said. I was considering 8TB, does that sound reasonable for an upgrade?
I'm considering these drives: Toshiba N300, Toshiba X300, Seagate Firecuda, Seagate Ironwolf. And was thinking of this external enclosure: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08J5SLTJX/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A29Y8OP2GPR7PE&psc=1
(I tried to use the "insert link" but it refuses to allow me to put the link at the end of the above sentence).

The 8tb toshibas are currently $225 cad on amazon. Comparing to other brands and models at that capacity, they seem ok? But I don't know if that's a good price per tb or anything.
Just getting one of these and a case would be over $300 cad. Is this what people actually spend on storage? Those who have something like 20tb of storage (say a 10tb and a backup or whatever), did you spend that kind of money for this; $700 - $900 cad?

Thanks for any advice, guys.

 

[Compused]

@Lafong

My post was deleted or locked or something.
Anyways, to answer your question of:
"Would you intend to leave BOTH of these drives (data and data backup) permanently connected and running?

Or just one of them....connecting the second one ONLY temporarily when doing a backup?"

I hadn't quite thought about it, or I guess I assumed that yes - I would be leaving both of them connected and finding a way of setting up automatic updates. Why do you ask? Probably something I don't know about.
Thanks.

 

[Lafong]

Leaving a drive running when it needn't be running exposes it to heat, wear and tear, viruses, etc.

That may be perfectly acceptable to you.

It's one thing if you back up 3 times a day and another if its once a week. If the former, it might be inconvenient for you to reconnect a drive 3 times a day to back up. If the latter, probably not.

I have no idea of your intent.

There are pre-assembled external drives like your Elements. They contain whatever drive WD chooses to put in there.

And then there are "docks" that allow you to use whatever drive you want...presumably higher quality and faster.

Maybe you are totally indifferent to speed. That's entirely possible since you seem to have tolerated your only data drive being at the end of a slow USB cable.

You can buy 4 TB 2.5 inch SSDs for circa 200 to 250. Maybe you reject that idea out of hand. Don't know where you draw the budget line.

A 4 TB M.2 2280 drive in an enclosure on the end of a USB cable is quite snappy....much like a USB flash drive. Maybe you say no because of budget.

Lots of possibilities, but it appears you are just fine with traditional spinning drives....regardless of their speed.

Do you regard ALL of your 5 TB data as equally valuable?

 

[USAFRet]

Just getting one of these and a case would be over $300 cad. Is this what people actually spend on storage? Those who have something like 20tb of storage (say a 10tb and a backup or whatever), did you spend that kind of money for this; $700 - $900 cad?

In or attached to my NAS is ~95TB.

How you do these backups is less important than you actually do it.

The general concept is 3-2-1.
3 copies, on at least 2 different media, at least one offsite or otherwise unavailable.

 

[thestryker]

I paid around $400 CAD for each of my 18TB drives (WD Red Pro), but picking drives is about how much storage you need. As for how they're contained that comes down to your use case completely. I'm not particularly fond of using USB drives (or enclosures with a drive) in a permanently on capacity. If this was the use case I'd look at DAS or NAS instead as those are intended to be on all of the time though it would cost more money.

Here's an 8TB+ storage list from Canada PCPartPicker sorted by price per GB: https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product...8000000000000,24000000000000&sort=ppgb&page=1

 

[Compused]

Leaving a drive running when it needn't be running exposes it to heat, wear and tear, viruses, etc.

I can't think of another scenario other than a drive being "connected" or "on", if it's going to be in use for saving files to, moving files around, and accesing files from. So I'm not sure what is meant by "leaving it running".

It's one thing if you back up 3 times a day and another if its once a week. If the former, it might be inconvenient for you to reconnect a drive 3 times a day to back up. If the latter, probably not.

Good point. The actual backups, if I were to set something up, it wouldn't be 3 times a day. I don't know how frequent. Can't software be setup to just scan for "changes" (like new files) and backup automatically in that event? I thought I read about something like that with an app - mayabe CCC for mac. Otherwise, no more than once a day. Probably a few times a week? I duno.

Maybe you are totally indifferent to speed. That's entirely possible since you seem to have tolerated your only data drive being at the end of a slow USB cable.

I was pretty vague I guess. I figure a 7200rpm, cmr, hdd is good enough for my uses. I see that cache size can be dictated by storage capacity. I don't think it needs to be a limiting factor for me.

Do you regard ALL of your 5 TB data as equally valuable?

Hmm. Yes, I suppose... I don't want to lose any of it. Are you suggesting different drives for vital and non-vital data, like maybe a separate drive for "multi-media" like movies and music? I did (do) have another 2tb WD external that I had planned on using solely for vital stuff (documents, you know - bills, etc.).

In or attached to my NAS is ~95TB.

How you do these backups is less important than you actually do it.

The general concept is 3-2-1.
3 copies, on at least 2 different media, at least one offsite or otherwise unavailable.

Damn! You didn't buy 95tb of storage all at once though, right. Haha.
Doing > How it's done. Gotcha.
"Different media"? Not sure what you mean. And I'm not putting anything on a "cLoUd", if that's what offsite would mean. Unavailable...?
I sounds like I can't meet this criteria for a proper system. I certainly can't buy three drives like this at once.
Thank you.

I paid around $400 CAD for each of my 18TB drives (WD Red Pro), but picking drives is about how much storage you need. As for how they're contained that comes down to your use case completely. I'm not particularly fond of using USB drives (or enclosures with a drive) in a permanently on capacity. If this was the use case I'd look at DAS or NAS instead as those are intended to be on all of the time though it would cost more money.

Here's an 8TB+ storage list from Canada PCPartPicker sorted by price per GB: https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product...8000000000000,24000000000000&sort=ppgb&page=1

Were you concerned (any of you) about the so called "scandle" involving WD drives and smr? Did you get the "plus". I'm curious.
I did look into what a NAS is last week. I like some of the benefits and stuff. It's just that it's adding cost I can't justify (or afford, really) at the moment. And I could probably only afford to put one drive in it right now anyway. So, I don't see the point.
Also, I don't understand - why would an hdd (say a toshiba n300, for ex.) placed inside a NAS and connected to a pc/laptop be fine, but the exact same drive placed in an external closure not be ok, specifically?
What about the NAS makes it ok to be "on all the time"? Is it the/some management software built into the NAS that "takes care" of the hdds inside? Or is it the actual components inside the NAS are of better quality then these external hdd enclosures (ex.: electrical components, solder, air flow, etc)?

Edit: PS, thank you - I have PCpartpicker bookmarked and I completely forgot about it. What an excellent resource.

Thank you guys.

 

[USAFRet]

Damn! You didn't buy 95tb of storage all at once though, right. Haha.
Doing > How it's done. Gotcha.
"Different media"? Not sure what you mean. And I'm not putting anything on a "cLoUd", if that's what offsite would mean. Unavailable...?
I sounds like I can't meet this criteria for a proper system. I certainly can't buy three drives like this at once.
Thank you.

Right...not all at once. Collected, upgraded, and swapped out over the years.

Different media = don't keep your stuff on one drive.
2x backups on the same drive is useless if that drive physically breaks.

Offsite means 'somewhere else'. Cloud, a friends house, whatever. This is to ward off fire/flood/theft.
My "offsite" is a couple of drives, encrypted, in a desk drawer at work. Updated every couple of months.

 

[thestryker]

Were you concerned (any of you) about the so called "scandle" involving WD drives and smr? Did you get the "plus". I'm curious.

It was amazingly dumb on the part of WD and it reminds me of the sort of thing done in the SSD space when companies change components without a new product. I wouldn't touch the plus, but I was also buying 5 drives to go into a server box that was replacing one that had been running for over a decade.

Also, I don't understand - why would an hdd (say a toshiba n300, for ex.) placed inside a NAS and connected to a pc/laptop be fine, but the exact same drive placed in an external closure not be ok, specifically?

The controllers and product design are not intended to be always on (unless you're buying a product specifically for that). Your HDD is likely to be fine it's the controller in the enclosure that wouldn't be.

What about the NAS makes it ok to be "on all the time"? Is it the/some management software built into the NAS that "takes care" of the hdds inside? Or is it the actual components inside the NAS are of better quality then these external hdd enclosures (ex.: electrical components, solder, air flow, etc)?

DAS and NAS devices are built to be an extension of your computing environment. The difference between them being one is network and one connects to your computer. They have more robust hardware and generally will have much better physical characteristics with regards to cooling and minimizing vibration.

 

[Lafong]

So I'm not sure what is meant by "leaving it running".

Can't software be setup to just scan for "changes" (like new files) and backup automatically in that event?

Your primary data drive would presumably be on all the time.

Your backup drive probably not.........all the more so if you would actually be using it say 2 hours out of the 168 hours in a week.

Yes, competent backup software can be set up to ignore unchanged files since they would already exist on the backup.

I back up 1 TB of files 2 or 3 times a day, to a slow 5400 rpm WD. It takes about 2 minutes. It's internal. Your external would be slower due to USB connection, but it wouldn't take as long as you might think because most files would be unchanged since the last backup and therefore ignored during any new backup.

I use a backup program called SyncBackFree, but I deliberately avoid "automated". I want to keep my head in the game.

Hmm. Yes, I suppose... I don't want to lose any of it. Are you suggesting different drives for vital and non-vital data, like maybe a separate drive for "multi-media" like movies and music? I did (do) have another 2tb WD external that I had planned on using solely for vital stuff (documents, you know - bills, etc.).

Suppose you have 100,000 files totaling 5 TB.

How many of those files will you actually open and observe in the next 5 years?

7 percent or 70 percent?

The lower the percentage, the more you might consider a "long term, rarely accessed" HDD and a separate smaller SSD backup drive for "frequently accessed" files. Back up the rarely accessed stuff one time and then put that drive in the closet. Maybe occasionally (a couple of times a year?) break it out.

The point is to take advantage of SSD speed if possible.

Of course if money is no object, maybe you go SSD all the way. But you imply a budget.

Likewise, if speed is of no interest, go HDD all the way.

At a bare minimum, you would be extremely foolish NOT to have at least TWO backups of your most important data. I've got 3 or 4.

 

[Compused]

Thank you for the info, guys.
As far as NAS, do you really need a drive that is advertised as a "NAS drive", or could you use anything of quality? The toshiba x300 8tb is at a decent price right now.

 

[mdd1963]

If you can run an internal SATA drive (or two if desiring safety of RAID 1/mirror), I've got a pair of 14 TB Seagate EXOS drives (new!) on Amazon for as low as $220 each...(12-14 T seems to be the 'sweet spot' for dollars per TB)

 

[Compused]

If you can run an internal SATA drive (or two if desiring safety of RAID 1/mirror), I've got a pair of 14 TB Seagate EXOS drives (new!) on Amazon for as low as $220 each...(12-14 T seems to be the 'sweet spot' for dollars per TB)

Thanks for the heads up. I'm in canada though.

 

[Compused]

I told Sabrent how I wanted to use their enclosure. They said "...The EC-KSL3 supports up to 22TB and let me mention that is necessary to eject the drive from the computer and then disconnect the EC-KSL3 and turn it off if you are not going to use the HDD or the PC is going to sleep or shut down."

I don't quite understand.

 

[Ralston18]

What about putting together your own NAS via another computer and something like FreeNAS/TrueNAS Core?

Re-purpose an older PC.

May or may not be viable but no harm in mentioning the option.

 

[USAFRet]

I told Sabrent how I wanted to use their enclosure. They said "...The EC-KSL3 supports up to 22TB and let me mention that is necessary to eject the drive from the computer and then disconnect the EC-KSL3 and turn it off if you are not going to use the HDD or the PC is going to sleep or shut down."

I don't quite understand.

Basically, eject the drive (in File Explorer) and disconnect the enclosure.

This is all based on how long you want it to be "off".

 

[thestryker]

I told Sabrent how I wanted to use their enclosure. They said "...The EC-KSL3 supports up to 22TB and let me mention that is necessary to eject the drive from the computer and then disconnect the EC-KSL3 and turn it off if you are not going to use the HDD or the PC is going to sleep or shut down."

I don't quite understand.

For data integrity due to the controllers that are used in the enclosures. The way Windows unmounts USB is still referred to as ejecting. So you'd right click the drive and there should be an eject option if I'm remembering correctly (I haven't dealt with this in many years). After doing that you'd want to turn off the enclosure.

 

[Compused]

What about putting together your own NAS via another computer and something like FreeNAS/TrueNAS Core?

Re-purpose an older PC.

May or may not be viable but no harm in mentioning the option.

After thinking about it, I don't want a NAS, because I don't need or want my files to be accessible to the internet. If anything, a DAS sounds more like what I'd want. But I don't think I need that right now either.

Basically, eject the drive (in File Explorer) and disconnect the enclosure.

This is all based on how long you want it to be "off".

I just wanted to have this HDD/enclosure setup connected to my pc (laptop). Then, at the end of the day, I usually just turn off my monitor and let the pc sleep whenever. But sometimes I'll shut it down, and I'll often restart. I don't want to have to software eject, physically disconnect, or unplug the HDD/enclosure. But it sounds like that is what they're saying I'd "have to" do.

 

[Compused]

For data integrity due to the controllers that are used in the enclosures. The way Windows unmounts USB is still referred to as ejecting. So you'd right click the drive and there should be an eject option if I'm remembering correctly (I haven't dealt with this in many years). After doing that you'd want to turn off the enclosure.

Is this different than how a purpose built external drive works then? I don't have to do any of this with my wd passport external hdd in order to shutdown/restart. I only safely eject if I'm disconnecting the drive while the laptop is on.

 

[USAFRet]

After thinking about it, I don't want a NAS, because I don't need or want my files to be accessible to the internet. If anything, a DAS sounds more like what I'd want. But I don't think I need that right now either.

A NAS does NOT mean your files are accessible to the internet.
That is entirely on how you set it up.

Mine isn't.

But it sounds like that is what they're saying I'd "have to" do.

No, you don't "have to".
If you were going to have it off for several days, yes.

 

[thestryker]

Is this different than how a purpose built external drive works then? I don't have to do any of this with my wd passport external hdd in order to shutdown/restart. I only safely eject if I'm disconnecting the drive while the laptop is on.

No it's not particularly different, but that's where the recommendation comes from. If that's their recommendation I'm assuming it's because they don't suggest having the enclosure on when the system is shutting down. I've definitely used one of their enclosures as a USB boot drive in a pinch though and didn't have a problem during the handful of reboots FWIW.

 

[Compused]

I'm deciding between these two enclosures:

Sabrent - https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08J5SLTJX/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A29Y8OP2GPR7PE&psc=1

UGREEN - https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B09736KRMD/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_7?smid=AKXVBT49GGF3B&psc=1

I like that the Sabrent is aluminum (would dissipate heat better?), but it's closing mechanism is stupid. I'm not sure where the Sabrent is made. I assume the UGREEN is made in china. Not sure if the Sabrent is actually any better quality.

The 12tb seagate ironwolf nas is on for $275 cad, so I ordered one. Think that (brand, model) is a good choice? The 8tb is also $220 cad right now.

Edit: Do any of these enclosures come with a faster connection type? usb-c?
Also, my thinkpad w530 has a connector near the front right, by the sd card reader, that I can't remember what it's called (pcie?). That would be a faster connection type than usb 3.0, right? Not that enclosures with that connection/cord are available, just wondering.
And super speed is not really a concern I have for this right now. I just save files to my external drives, and acces files from it, and watch movies or listen to music from it. I don't think I need any faster speed for that than I've been having. What is a scenario or example that I would need faster speed? Editing videos or something?

Thanks again.

Thank you.

 

[thestryker]

Unless you're using NVMe SSD 5Gbps is more than enough throughput.

I have the Sabrent one and can confirm the closing mechanism is stupid though the device itself is quite good. The aluminum doesn't do anything for heat dissipation because the drive mounts in a plastic cage so there's no easy way to take advantage and since it slides in I don't think you could use a thermal pad either.

 

[Compused]

Unless you're using NVMe SSD 5Gbps is more than enough throughput.

I have the Sabrent one and can confirm the closing mechanism is stupid though the device itself is quite good. The aluminum doesn't do anything for heat dissipation because the drive mounts in a plastic cage so there's no easy way to take advantage and since it slides in I don't think you could use a thermal pad either.

Ok.
I like that the UGREEN also appears to have more ventilation holes, and located on the top of the case too.
This one has my interest too: ORICO 3588US3: https://www.amazon.ca/ORICO-Screw-L...241&sprefix=inateck+enclosure,aps,144&sr=8-17
I see no ventilation on this one though.

 

[thestryker]

None of the low profile ones are going to be very good for heat dissipation and the vents on the UGREEN one are on the bottom for whatever reason. I genuinely don't know why they're all designed this way beyond them being cheap and looking nice from the outside.

One of the Vantec ones might work with a thermal pad if you're concerned about cooling.

 

[Compused]

Sorry for the long post. TL : DR: skip to end, looking for recommendations, want to avoid low quality brands/models. Thank you.

@USAFRet You mentioned in another thread about enclosures that you have the Mediasonic PROBOX 8 bay H82-SU3S3. I was looking at several options, some more than what I need, but regardless, and came across the PROBOX 4 HF2-SU3S3. When looking at review on YT, I saw a lot of people having some type of software issue (which might have been a combo of software and not knowing how to change/reconfigure some settings). I guess you haven't had those/any issues with it?

Maybe I should ask, if anyone knows "which brands to avoid", if that is an easier question to answer than "which brands/models are good"? I'm gonna list a few things I'm looking at, if anyone could chime in on "avoid that brand/model", because they make low quality stuff, or similar advice, please. I really don't know about these brands.
Mainly I want somethings that's not going to fail, especially in a way that is going to currupt/ruin the drive inside and end up with me losing my data.

Does having an "enclosure" with multiple HDDs in it fail result in all the drives inside to fail/die? In the same way that having a single HDD in a single bay enclosure would do?

I think I have some more defined "wants" now.
-Air flow. Obviously ventillation, but also a fan.
-Two bays. It seems none of the single drive enclosures (caddy's?) have a built in fan. They don't seem to be meant for leaving hooked up, as some have eluded to. I don't plan on using raid, but I'd like to have one drive with all my stuff on it, and another just as a backup of that first one. If both in the same enclosure, that's cool -- unless the enclosure experiencing some type of failure could potentially kill both drives, that happening would be unacceptable.

List of enclosures that caught my interest so far, from amazon.ca only. Double asterisk ( ** ) after the ones I’m particularly interested in. I’d like to spend under $160 cad before tax. The 2 bay sabrent had another listing for $150 but I missed it.

*Can I not post a list of amazon links for the models I'm considering? I'm getting a notice when I tried to post saying "may be spam like" or something...