Advice sought on setting up RAID5 whilst retaining existing OS System image

[brucerobinson]

I have:
Vertex SSD 120Gb with OS and programs on it. I want to retain this OS system installation i.e. no fresh OS install. It is Win 10 Pro through upgrade from Win 7 Pro license.
I have further 2x Samsung 128Gb SSDs and plethora of HDDs larger than SSDs and NAS for data storage and backup.

I propose to set up the 2x Sammys and 1x Vertex SSDs in RAID5 so that I have tolerance to drive failure without losing OS/system operability. My understanding is that there is no problem using dissimilar makes and capacity SSDs in RAID5 giving me around 120Gb (Vertex) capacity.
I will never have anything other than OS and a few programs on the RAID so capacity is not and will not be an issue.

Once this project is completed, I propose to clone the RAID image & backup data to HDD and NAS.
Result:
- RAID5 tolerant to (single) SSD failure allowing swap out of failed SSD and RAID rebuild without OS downtime;
- tolerant to OS corruption by reinstating last-known-good clone of the SSD RAID drive OS System image stored on the HDD;
- tolerant to data corruption by reinstating backups (without the need for complete OS and programs reinstallation).

Steps - clone System installation image from (currently on) Vertex SSD to HDD - I have used EaseUS Todo to do this, disconnected the Vertex OS System installation SSD and booted from the cloned OS on the HDD so seem to be ok with this.
Then - boot from HDD OS and set up 3x SSDs in RAID5.

Questions - I see that my current SSD OS drive is MBR, one of the Samsungs is MBR and one GPT. From research it seems GPT is the 'way to go' (my Mobo supports it/is UEFI) but for this setup doesn't matter - no >2Tb drives and no requirement for a large number of partitions. I presume if I clone my current SSD OS image to HDD and then clone back to newly created 3x SSD RAID5 (EaseUS Todo works with Hardware RAID, or so it says on the tin) then the MBR setup will 'go with it'? Would I be better to take this opportunity to make the RAID5 a GPT? In which case how to go about it? I've read up on how to convert from MBR to GPT without having to reinstall OS and seems straightforward. I'm not sure I'm clear about this in context of cloning, setting up RAID, and transferring from single SSD to HDD to SSD RAID etc.
As I understand it, when I set up the 3x SSD RAID5 it becomes a virgin drive - no formatting, no partitions, nada. I then need to use Computer Management ¦ Disk Management when booted into Windows off the clone of the OS installation on the HDD. But the clone of the OS will retain the MBR setup and any partitions from the Vertex SSD OS/System installation. So, if MBR, when I then clone the image (OS and partitions) from the HDD to the RAID5 I will have the same MBR and partitions on the RAID? So do I get rid of MBR in favour of GPT and if so, do it on the existing OS on the Vertex SSD and then clone that on to the HDD, set up 3x SSD RAID5 and put the clone from HDD onto the RAID5, or do the OS transfer from SSD to RAID via HDD and then convert to GPT on RAID i.e. should I leave it as MBR, and if not should I convert to GPT at the beginning whilst on the single Vertex SSD or wait until transferred to RAID then tinker. Can conversion even be done on RAID??!

Also, given my proposed end point, should I be creating any additional partitions other than the defaults (I don't think I need a partition for data or the like on the RAID, don't see the need to keep programs on a separate partition given the 'belt and braces' approach overall, and subscribe to the Keep It Simple Stupid school of thought so have never added the complication of non-default program installation locations. I welcome any advice on this though.

Will I encounter any Windows licencing/activation issues with what I propose? As I understand it Win 10 activation servers use 'major change' for authentication including a variety of components in addition to drive on which Windows is installed such as motherboard, BIOS, MAC address etc and cloning from one SSD onto an HDD then back to a RAID setup whilst all operating within the same 'core PC' should not give me trouble with activation? Win 7 Pro was activated first, then upgraded to Win 10, with the current hardware/Vertex SSD. My understanding is the EaseUS Todo cloning contributes to making this possible. The only hardware change is single SSD to 3xSSD RAID via HDD. I will change mobo and cpu, but later and the subject of another post, no doubt.

Booting from the cloned system image on the HDD whilst transitioning from single Vertex SSD OS to 3xSSD RAID5 should mean I don't need a bootable USB stick with WinPE and all that malarkey?
Once I've got the OS drive cloned, copied from the Vertex SSD and onto the RAID5 drive via the HDD using EaseUS Todo I can then wipe and format the HDD and use it to keep a current clone of the RAID plus backup.

I believe I need to do something with the SSDs to use them for the OS (disable defrag etc). The Samsungs came with utilities for transferring OS (cloning software I believe) and drive setup, but - stupidly imho - Samsung don't provide a SATA/USB converter cable so didn't do this at the time I got them because I didn't have one/not available locally. When I got the 2 Samsungs I was going to use them in RAID1, and I set them up as such successfully in the manner described above. But I didn't know much about RAID, better option of RAID5 using my 3 SSDs (I thought my Vertex had failed and un-useable but it was a Windows10 Insider Preview build glitch that cratered everything), couldn't get hold of an identical Vertex for RAID1, didn't know RAID5 better option and could use mixed drives, MBR/GPT, licensing and activation issues regarding Windows 10 being an upgrade - I don't want to have to 'roll back' to Win 7 in order to activate and then upgrade to Win 10.

What about drivers for the Vertex and Samsung drives? Any issues here? I believe the Samsungs don't need their own drivers, but can't recall re: the Vertex - or is this a non-issue when using in RAID? I seem to recall something about RAID Drivers being needed - my Mobo is a Gigabyte TA970 and it has its own RAID Utility download, but I think there is also one for the Chipset/controller that comes into play via the BIOS setting up the RAID (Ctrl+I or whatever) and that I need to have this on the HDD with the clone of containing Windows that I am booting from so that the BIOS can find the RAID drivers? Is this situation as follows: I need 'RAID drivers' during setting up RAID5 in the BIOS and two approaches are available - use the BIOS RAID Drivers (AMI) or use the mobo manufacturer's (Gigabyte) 'RAID Drivers' utility and if so which is recommended, and I (may) need 'SSD Drivers' - I think Samsung don't need their own drivers but not sure about Vertex, don't recall (not laziness on my part, I'll check, but if they're only needed if using SSD alone and not needed if using SSD in RAID then no need).

I believe there are two SATA controllers on my mobo (a 'Maxwell' and something else!) and that I need to put the drive that has the 'boot from OS' on it i.e. my HDD on the 2xSATA connectors controller and the 3xSSDs that are to be made into a RAID array on the other 4x SATA connectors controller? Is there anything I should be aware of here, other than changing the drive boot order in the BIOS to boot from the SATA with the HDD attached when I am ready to set up the 3xSSDs in RAID before enabling them via Ctrl+I?

Hopefully my learning journey is nearing an end. Talk about complex with elephant traps at every step. I've read hours of posts and still clear as mud. Proper planning prevents piss-poor performance, I hope.

If you've read this far then hopefully you've got the answers I need so thanks in advance. Long post, but hopefully comprehensive and all relevant information provided.

All help appreciated....!

 

[JaredDM]

OK, just a few things here and I apologize that I haven't read all of your post. Just that I'm too busy to finish it right now.

1. SSD's in RAID show almost no performance benefits over a single SSD. So if you're only doing this for uptime, and capacity isn't a factor as you say, then I'd strongly recommend that you do a simple RAID 1 mirror.
2. Unless you're building an array larger than 2Tb or planning more than 4 partitions there's no need or benefit to switch from MBR to GPT. So I wouldn't worry much about that.
3. As to moving the image onto and off of the SSD and array, a simple Linux Live USB or CD such as knoppix combined with ddrescue can easily handle the cloning process for you.
4. As for drivers, generally you don't need any for hard drives & SSDs except for certain advanced features such as how you can adjust the over provisioning on certain models.
5. If you are insistent on doing a RAID 5, be sure that your controller supports TRIM in RAID mode. Without it, you'll eventually be running much slower than you would on a single SSD.

If I have time later to read the rest of your post, perhaps I'll update with more answers for you.

 

[brucerobinson]

Many thanks JaredDM,
Re: 1 (and therefore to follow, 5) Yes, uptime and failure tolerance - SSD for OS gives all the performance I need. You strongly recommend RAID 1 so I'm not about to ignore that.... May I ask why? I arrived at RAID5 having started at RAID 1 having bought 2x identical Samsung as required for RAID 1 because I thought my SDD was dead. Then I found I could use the not dead SSD to make RAID5 and have in-situ replacement of failed drive and automatic rebuild of the RAID array which seemed desirable over RAID 1 which it seemed in the event of failure would give me a 'limp-home' solution until I could get an identical replacement for the failed drive and then rebuild the array with downtime meantime. Assuming answer to 5 is yes, and that I have a spare SSD for which I have no other use, could you indicate main issues that cause you to recommend RAID 1 as preferable to 5 in this case?
3. Why do you propose this in preference to EaseUS Todo? I've no experience with Linux and had no problems with EaseUS Todo which runs in a Windows environment with which I am familiar?
2. & 4. - marvellous and thank you
Best

OK, just a few things here and I apologize that I haven't read all of your post. Just that I'm too busy to finish it right now.

1. SSD's in RAID show almost no performance benefits over a single SSD. So if you're only doing this for uptime, and capacity isn't a factor as you say, then I'd strongly recommend that you do a simple RAID 1 mirror.
2. Unless you're building an array larger than 2Tb or planning more than 4 partitions there's no need or benefit to switch from MBR to GPT. So I wouldn't worry much about that.
3. As to moving the image onto and off of the SSD and array, a simple Linux Live USB or CD such as knoppix combined with ddrescue can easily handle the cloning process for you.
4. As for drivers, generally you don't need any for hard drives & SSDs except for certain advanced features such as how you can adjust the over provisioning on certain models.
5. If you are insistent on doing a RAID 5, be sure that your controller supports TRIM in RAID mode. Without it, you'll eventually be running much slower than you would on a single SSD.

If I have time later to read the rest of your post, perhaps I'll update with more answers for you.

 

[JaredDM]

The ability to rebuild on the fly is all based on the RAID controller. If you're just planning to use you're motherboards onboard RAID, then you'll most likely have downtime to rebuild no matter what RAID type you use. Whereas a more advanced controller can do it all on the fly without any downtime, or major restrictions about what you use as a replacement. RAID 1 will generally operate exactly the same as a single member, whereas RAID 5 has parity calculations to perform. The issue with any stripe array using SSD's is that it'll only ever be as fast as it's slowest member. So if any one of the three SSD's becomes slow performing (which they do over time) the entire array will be crippled. That's the real drawback to using SSDs in striped RAID.

As for cloning the drive, use whatever you're comfortable with. Just don't try cloning the drive that you're currently running the OS from, that'd have catastrophic results.

 

[brucerobinson]

Many thanks for this insight into SSDs in striped arrays, clears up for me why RAID1 preferred over 5.
With no need for GPT and drivers not a concern this solution is all very much more straightforward - I leave the current OS install on the Vertex SSD so if I have any problems can simply continue with that meantime, set up the two Samsungs in RAID1 which I've done successfully previously and clone the current OS from the Vertex SSD on to the RAID1 Samsungs for which I'll use EaseUS Todo because I used this previously to clone the OS drive contents to the HDD to use as a bootable drive, tested working with no problems and Windows recognised as licensed/activated.
It seems to me that not using the Vertex for RAID5, I can periodically clone the RAID to the Vertex, then if the RAID were to fail I can boot off the Vertex whilst I sort out the failed RAID.
Finally, if I may call on you for a further clarification - your last comment 'don't try cloning the drive that you're currently running the OS from...' - that is just what EaseUS Todo does, it allows you to create a copy of the disk on which your current OS is installed along with all installed programs etc to another disk and makes that disk bootable. That's what I did on my HDD. I can simply unplug the Vertex SSD on which my OS resides, plug in the HDD, change the BIOS to boot from the HDD and boot having exactly the same OS, programs installed, settings etc as I had on the Vertex like a mirror. Have I misunderstood your last comment or am I missing something?
Many many thanks for your excellent assistance, much appreciated.

The ability to rebuild on the fly is all based on the RAID controller. If you're just planning to use you're motherboards onboard RAID, then you'll most likely have downtime to rebuild no matter what RAID type you use. Whereas a more advanced controller can do it all on the fly without any downtime, or major restrictions about what you use as a replacement. RAID 1 will generally operate exactly the same as a single member, whereas RAID 5 has parity calculations to perform. The issue with any stripe array using SSD's is that it'll only ever be as fast as it's slowest member. So if any one of the three SSD's becomes slow performing (which they do over time) the entire array will be crippled. That's the real drawback to using SSDs in striped RAID.

As for cloning the drive, use whatever you're comfortable with. Just don't try cloning the drive that you're currently running the OS from, that'd have catastrophic results.

 

[lodders]

A friend of mine once bought a NAS with some RAID HDD.
The HDD were fine, but the NAS itself failed.
The data was inaccessible until he was able to source another NAS enclosure of same make and similar age, and put his HDDs in it..
I once had an Asrock mobo where the SATA became unreliable. I had RAID, and transferring the data from the RAID drives to an IDE drive was touch and go.

Since then, I don't bother with RAID. I just have an SSD for the OS and apps, and 2 HDD with the same data on each. Simple!!

 

[brucerobinson]

Lodders I'm terribly sorry but I seemed to have inadvertently (fiddling about because I couldn't see how to Reply to your post - it only shows the link if I have my browser fullscreen, I now know) down-rated your solution and don't seem to be able to edit that to rectify - so here's for the public record....
Your comments along with Jared's seem to tend toward a similar position, which is also what I was getting an inkling of with my searching the net, YouTube etc for tutorials and why I asked for help - that being that for some situations (most likely non-commercial/non-enterprise) RAID is more bother than it is worth now due to the advent of mainstream use of SSDs. No moving parts to fail, well-established core memory hardware, comparatively blazingly fast for OS read/write (negating and exceeding the use of RAID for performance improvement with HDDs) and affordable with sufficient size for the OS/System ,with data residing elsewhere.
A downside of SSDs seems to be relatively shorter life/MTBF.
We tend to be skewed by our most recent experience - I'd looked at RAID when running OS on HDD for redundancy and performance improvement, but then went for SSD for speed, then thought I had a SSD failure so investigated RAID again but with SSDs. concluding with RAID5.
Jared's kindly explained why this is not the correct conclusion to arrive at with SSDs. YouTube tutorials haven't yet caught up with the evolution of SSDs used for OS/system installation.

I should have posted here in the first place and saved myself many hours arriving at the wrong conclusion!

I've taken onboard your helpful perspective - RAID is all well and good in theory but if the perceived benefits come with added complications in practice were I to need them, then take this into consideration when making the choice. Like having the comfort of a backup or restoration solution that you've never actually used or restored from that when you come to want to use it doesn't work or is difficult to effect - right when you're stressed out anyhow and most likely to make mistakes.

At the moment I'm tending toward 2x SSDs in RAID1 for real-time redundancy in the event of SSD failure, but with a daily bootable clone of the OS drive image made to my spare SSD. In that way, it seems, if a RAID SSD fails the mirror should not and I have continuity whilst I decide on a rescue plan and can switch to the separate SSD when I need to mess with the RAID drive. If the RAID itself fails rather than an SSD in the RAID (such as your experiences in NAS, Mobo, SATA whatever) I can similarly boot off the separate SSD cloned system image whilst I sort things out with the failure. Seems a good idea also that I put the RAID and the separate SSD on the different controllers on the mobo too. I may, though, dispense with RAID and just go with two separate SSDs with a cloned system image on one to switch to.

Thank you very much for your contribution which has helped me, and again my apologies for down-rating your response in error.

A friend of mine once bought a NAS with some RAID HDD.
The HDD were fine, but the NAS itself failed.
The data was inaccessible until he was able to source another NAS enclosure of same make and similar age, and put his HDDs in it..
I once had an Asrock mobo where the SATA became unreliable. I had RAID, and transferring the data from the RAID drives to an IDE drive was touch and go.

Since then, I don't bother with RAID. I just have an SSD for the OS and apps, and 2 HDD with the same data on each. Simple!!

 

[brucerobinson]

The ability to rebuild on the fly is all based on the RAID controller. If you're just planning to use you're motherboards onboard RAID, then you'll most likely have downtime to rebuild no matter what RAID type you use. Whereas a more advanced controller can do it all on the fly without any downtime, or major restrictions about what you use as a replacement. RAID 1 will generally operate exactly the same as a single member, whereas RAID 5 has parity calculations to perform. The issue with any stripe array using SSD's is that it'll only ever be as fast as it's slowest member. So if any one of the three SSD's becomes slow performing (which they do over time) the entire array will be crippled. That's the real drawback to using SSDs in striped RAID.

As for cloning the drive, use whatever you're comfortable with. Just don't try cloning the drive that you're currently running the OS from, that'd have catastrophic results.