AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[-Fran-]

I think some people are confused here, they think MANTLE was some sort of DX Alternative... which is not, it was just meant to make fast and affordable ports to PC with GREAT PERFORMANCE.

No one should care if Xbone or PS4 wont be using it, the fact it... you are 10 times more likely to see a Good Port from Consoles to PC compared to this current gen is almost done.

In other words, MANTLE = GOOD PORTS in the Next Gen, I also saw several Devs throwing tons of shit at Microsoft... you don`t need to be a Genius to listen to what Devs are saying, and they want to get rid of MS.

A key point in here is IF VALVE will support, which will pretty much decide how long does MANTLE will last.

All i see for the Next Gen of Games (Console and PC) is GOOD NEWS, all thanks mostly to AMD and Valve partially... forget about the days of horrible ports to PC, this gen is going to be awesome for PC Gamers.

Well, MANTLE *is* a new API. AMD is just saying it will bundle a bazzilion new tools to make porting easier. That's a big promise.

*applause*

I think you made the point I have been trying to push for a while, but was overlooked.

MANTLE does something no other API allows...

Compatibility with DX 11.2 for any OS.

gamerk: You talk about market share...what about people who could use Steam for Windows and Linux. Imagine the market share that recompiling could afford you by just adding additional OS support.

The first time MANTLE makes an otherwise Windows only franchise available on OSX and Linux, I think you'll see a huge adoption rate for these "lesser" OS systems.

If you could get BF4 on Origin for Linux because of MANTLE, don't think tons of Linux users who were formerly dual booting wouldn't uninstall Windows entirely.

Once that paradigm shift occurs, games supporting only DX will be left in the cold to shrinking market share. Sure the windows numbers will likely begin to dwindle slowly, however, the installed base of high end gamers switching to a better OS that's free will increase faster than the people who don't buy many PC Games and run Windows because "it's familiar". However, keep in mind, that's the same crowd that hates Win 8 for different reasons.

NVidia can pick up the MANTLE for the API too (pun intended), and basically bring DX to it's knees if they're smart. Steam boxes will definitely be a driving force in this. If steam boxes pick up pace and sell well, and Valve jumps on board with MANTLE, and we see BF4 ported to Linux using MANTLE, the contest may well have already been won.

yuka: I can understand your point, and theirs about business perspective.

However, M$ is on the wall leaning right now, if they were to stumble, the cataclysm of events that would lead directly to the destruction of their DT PC market share would be a perfect storm right now.

I am not going to forecast it, because *A LOT* has to go right; however, 2014 has the makings to actually be the year of the Linux gaming desktop. They've been saying it for years, and I always thought they were smoking something stronger than cigarettes; however, the pundits may finally be right...after 15 years of guessing.

We could see the fall of M$ from the near monopolistic grip they have on DT PC software within the next 1-2 years. They're losing mobile already, and have turned to services and devices to pick up slack...though they may just lose out on the one thing they thought they had locked in during the process of trying to put a stranglehold on the technological world across all avenues.

I am cautiously excited to watch the next 6-12 months unfold and see what the gaming industry offers up. This could, very well, be the day some thought would never come, and we may see the dethroning of the DT OS king.

AMD is not putting something that will "let Direct X be used in all platforms". What I understood is they're offering an alternative to reach deep hardware coding, similar to what consoles offer, for their own line of video cards, plus a bazillion dev tools. In my opinion, nVidia and Intel will be better of adopting MANTLE (or pushing their own, ha, that would be funny) since it will help them re-gain a market they're losing grasp on.

Also, remember AMD and Valve (with nVidia in between) are picking up a fight with Microsoft. They're a Behemoth.

Anyhow, AMD has to clear the waters on MANTLE at the APU13 Conf.

What AMD is trying to push is a half way point for mantle to bridge console APIs and PC directX. It will leverage GCN in consoles, which run low level code and bring that low level code to all GCN cards. Which means if a developer wanted to, they could get the game to run in mantle much faster than getting it to run on all PC, then go back and port to DX11. It like how C++ was compiled into C before compiled into assembly. There is a bridge that makes it easier.

This.

Cheers!

PS: Server error made me lost the original reply... This one is a short answer! I even lost my jokes! 8(

 

[Ags1]

As a low-budget Linux-Windows dual-booter, I would be very happy to see no need for Windows. That would mean 100 euros I could spend on hardware for my next build. The only reason I hang on to Windows is for games.

 

[noob2222]

AMD is replacing the jaguar-based servers by ARM-based servers. This is happening at 2014.

AMD has claimed how all the future servers will be ARM-based. Feldman has explained why customers want ARM to win.

AMD has also claimed that they are releasing the new x86 based Warsaw servers only for institutional customers that will be slow on migrating to ARM. To be read as, once all our customer migrate to ARM we will not release x86 servers anymore.

AMD will be also replacing jaguar-based tablets by ARM-based-tablets this or next year.

Show me one piece of material from AMD directly that is worded "ARM will replace X"...I can't find one...sounds like more tinfoil hats and speculation. This thread has become full of that lately.

Rocks, you continue using _double standards_. For instance, you didn't provide us any piece of material from AMD saying "We will release FX Steamroller for AM3+ platfform", but you have been saying to everyone on the forums how one could purchase a FX Piledriver plus an AM3+ mobo now and upgrade to Steamroller FX 8-cores latter using the same mobo.

I have not provided you a quote with the exact selection of words that you want to hear, but I have provided you (i) official roadmaps and server plans showing how Seattle replaces Opteron-X, (ii) the "ARM will win" secret slide from AMD, and (iii) quotes such as

He [Feldman] also told us that “Warsaw”, AMD’s follow up in the 2P/4P server market, will cater for a declining but still large market with institutional customers that will take longer to migrate to an ARM ecosystem.

What part of migrating to ARM you don't still understand?

What part of taking longer don't you understand. As I stated before, what is this "longer"? 2, 4, 7, 10 years ... in the mean time in order for this to happen, x86 needs to stop advancing.

your acting like this is taking place in 2014&2015. its not. In your little world, amd is going to stop advancing x86 and just wait for ARM to catch up. That only makes sense to you, no one else, not even AMD is going to just stand still and wait for something that may take decades to happen.

While (Juanrga = wrong) {printf("JUANRGA IS NEVER WRONG")};

 

[8350rocks]

As a low-budget Linux-Windows dual-booter, I would be very happy to see no need for Windows. That would mean 100 euros I could spend on hardware for my next build. The only reason I hang on to Windows is for games.

+1

Also, an interesting read:

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/16/microsoft-rejects-mantle/

It seems that XBone's API is a very slightly tweaked DX only with a few minor low level constructs. It seems developers for XBone will not have the same access to the hardware that PS4 will have.

yuka:

I think I wasn't clear, let me elaborate.

MANTLE is not DX compatibility from an API standpoint; however, it allows you to easily port your DX code to a new API that is cross platform compatible, and offers lower level access to the hardware.

(In essence, I see this as the bar for entry to other platforms will be much lower with AMD hardware)

 

[noob2222]

^^ I didn't pay attention, but SA is a bit insane with their subscription

Did you know that you can access all our past subscription-only articles with a simple Student Membership for 100 USD per year?

4x a magazine sub ... lol

 

[Rum]

I know this isn't Steamroller related but it's still an interesting read on Linux 3.12 and AMD GPU performance!
http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=19196

 

[-Fran-]

+1

Also, an interesting read:

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/16/microsoft-rejects-mantle/

It seems that XBone's API is a very slightly tweaked DX only with a few minor low level constructs. It seems developers for XBone will not have the same access to the hardware that PS4 will have.

yuka:

I think I wasn't clear, let me elaborate.

MANTLE is not DX compatibility from an API standpoint; however, it allows you to easily port your DX code to a new API that is cross platform compatible, and offers lower level access to the hardware.

(In essence, I see this as the bar for entry to other platforms will be much lower with AMD hardware)

APUs will be the most benefited of them all in this.

I was toying with my A8 3850 (Llano) and fed it GRID2. It ran on medium at 720 and split screen with 30-ish FPSes. That's quite a feat IMO.

Anyway, I'd love to drop Windows in my HTPC to replace it with SteamOS alright.

@noob2222:

If you want to play with the stock value, the rumor mill can be VERY good for business. So, I'm not shocked at the prices. Charlie, like it or not, has very good contacts in every big player of the tech industry, so having full details on a possible merger or new product is BIG for business.

Cheers!

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

+1

Also, an interesting read:

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/16/microsoft-rejects-mantle/

It seems that XBone's API is a very slightly tweaked DX only with a few minor low level constructs. It seems developers for XBone will not have the same access to the hardware that PS4 will have.

yuka:

I think I wasn't clear, let me elaborate.

MANTLE is not DX compatibility from an API standpoint; however, it allows you to easily port your DX code to a new API that is cross platform compatible, and offers lower level access to the hardware.

(In essence, I see this as the bar for entry to other platforms will be much lower with AMD hardware)

APUs will be the most benefited of them all in this.

I was toying with my A8 3850 (Llano) and fed it GRID2. It ran on medium at 720 and split screen with 30-ish FPSes. That's quite a feat IMO.

Anyway, I'd love to drop Windows in my HTPC to replace it with SteamOS alright.

@noob2222:

If you want to play with the stock value, the rumor mill can be VERY good for business. So, I'm not shocked at the prices. Charlie, like it or not, has very good contacts in every big player of the tech industry, so having full details on a possible merger or new product is BIG for business.

Cheers!

Ubuntu itself would be great for an HTPC TBH.

 

[-Fran-]

I know this isn't Steamroller related but it's still an interesting read on Linux 3.12 and AMD GPU performance!
http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=19196

Long story short: they pushed a change in the CPU freq governor (ondemand) that calculates loads differently now, so now CPUs work at full speed for loads that requite GPU use, whether or not the CPU is tasked at a 100%.

That's how I understood the change and it clearly reflects the dependency of GPUs on CPUs.

Cheers!

EDIT
@Q6660 In: I hate Unity with all my guts.

 

[esrever]

Interesting bit of info regarding bf4, mantle and windows.

Newer games will be targeting windows 8 and dx11.1 or 11.2, these features won't be available on windows 7 without mantle.

BF4 already runs better on windows 8 than windows 7. According DICE, this will continue to be the case until mantle is released.

 

[Cazalan]

Mantle will live or die by the results achieved. They just need a couple key titles to get the ball rolling.

Rather than say it is DoA, it is better to point out the things they will need to make it a success. We need more competition in this area.

Worst case scenario for us consumers is Microsoft gets a kick in the pants and improves DirectX. Win-Win!

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

I know this isn't Steamroller related but it's still an interesting read on Linux 3.12 and AMD GPU performance!
http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=19196

Long story short: they pushed a change in the CPU freq governor (ondemand) that calculates loads differently now, so now CPUs work at full speed for loads that requite GPU use, whether or not the CPU is tasked at a 100%.

That's how I understood the change and it clearly reflects the dependency of GPUs on CPUs.

Cheers!

EDIT
@Q6660 In: I hate Unity with all my guts.

Well, can't you force GNOME back on, at least in 12.04 you could..

 

[8350rocks]

Mantle will live or die by the results achieved. They just need a couple key titles to get the ball rolling.

Rather than say it is DoA, it is better to point out the things they will need to make it a success. We need more competition in this area.

Worst case scenario for us consumers is Microsoft gets a kick in the pants and improves DirectX. Win-Win!

Best case scenario, Linux gaming takes off like a Saturn V rocket headed for high earth orbit.

 

[8350rocks]

I know this isn't Steamroller related but it's still an interesting read on Linux 3.12 and AMD GPU performance!
http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=19196

Long story short: they pushed a change in the CPU freq governor (ondemand) that calculates loads differently now, so now CPUs work at full speed for loads that requite GPU use, whether or not the CPU is tasked at a 100%.

That's how I understood the change and it clearly reflects the dependency of GPUs on CPUs.

Cheers!

EDIT
@Q6660 In: I hate Unity with all my guts.

Well, can't you force GNOME back on, at least in 12.04 you could..

There is a version that supports GNOME, it is typically released shortly after the full launch of the newest version. (now would be 13.10 as of tomorrow)

 

[m0f0martian]

About AMD Steamroller, I came across an interesting article with benchmarks of Kaveri architecture.

http://juanrga.com/en/AMD-kaveri-benchmark.html

Could it be good news for AMD platform gamers? Im running the Bulldozer chip right now, a 30% perf increase would be worthy of an upgrade.

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

That was made by a user on here called juangra and is about 5% off reality.

Fixed.
Steamroller will be better than you think, AMD is only 30-40% behind Intel per core.

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

Yes thats why an i5 4670k scores similar to an fx8350 on multithreaded benchmarks as it is 110% better per core at same clock speed.

Where on earth did you get 110% from lol? In multi-threaded apps, the 8350 is near or better than the 3770K.

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

superpi, gimp image editing, office macro benches. Its so funny how people make 4 core kaveri look like they compete against i5's, they will struggle to beat the i3 haswell cpu.

Super PI, x87, trololollol. You realize AMD is ~40% behind in single-threaded performance, Steamroller should get a 25-30% increase, AKA near Sandy levels, so along with the slighly higher clocks, AMD can get some serious heat on Intel. Your 110% is B$ pulled out of you arse, literally everybody here on this thread has went over and over on how that is untrue, even at Nehalem per core levels, AMD will do seriously good .

 

[Cazalan]

Return of the S U P E R P I. LoL!

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/7100150
This is my laptop score I did and considering I yet to change my thermalpaste that is an impressive score. I think I seen on 3dmark11 scores i5 3210m score around 3800-3900 which is higher then a stock a10-6800k or at least on par with it. Now why why would a desktop i5 struggle to beat a kaveri cpu if its project improvements are 30%.

You forgot to mention that i5 has HT lol...

 

[8350rocks]

superpi, gimp image editing, office macro benches. Its so funny how people make 4 core kaveri look like they compete against i5's, they will struggle to beat the i3 haswell cpu.

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. SuperPi is x87...don't get me started with your garbage again.

2. Every program you listed runs on a single thread...(*DUH* are you cherry picking, trolling, or ignorant?)

3. i5's are not the end all, be all of anything. They're not bad, but they're not the biggest, the baddest, or the best.

4. Seriously, how did you end up back in this thread??? You get laughed out of here EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. with your fanboy BS that just shows you're either trolling, ignorant, or intelligence challenged.

Please, go back under your bridge...the big boys are talking, and little trolls are under the height limit for this discussion.

 

[8350rocks]

Return of the S U P E R P I. LoL!

+1

Can I get a witness from the congregation?! LOL.

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

Now look how much of a whitewash this a10-5800k vs i5 4670k is:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/675?vs=837

Even the i5 4670k easily beats out the fx8320:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/698?vs=837

Now the fx8350 vs i5 4670k 2.1x ipc theory really put to test, I think i5 4670k turbos to 3.8ghz vs probably the fx8350 I don't know if it stays at 4ghz or goes to 4.2ghz:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/697?vs=837
Its amazing isn't it the i5 4670k wins a good chunk of these benchmarks but how can it be possible, oh yes my theory is right.

That is user submitted, there are so many setups out there, not to mention, do you really think everything there is properly optimized for 8-cores?... The A10 does not have L3 durr, the 4300 vs 4670K has the i5 with a 40-50% advantage.

 

[8350rocks]

superpi, gimp image editing, office macro benches. Its so funny how people make 4 core kaveri look like they compete against i5's, they will struggle to beat the i3 haswell cpu.

Super PI, x87, trololollol. You realize AMD is ~40% behind in single-threaded performance, Steamroller should get a 25-30% increase, AKA near Sandy levels, so along with the slighly higher clocks, AMD can get some serious heat on Intel. Your 110% is B$ pulled out of you arse, literally everybody here on this thread has went over and over on how that is untrue, even at Nehalem per core levels, AMD will do seriously good .

You say this as you know I am right. I find it amazing so many people get deluded by amd cpus, only until bf4 benchmarks came out 8350rocks really believed 5+ threads the amd fx cpus beat the i5's now he has realised even a low clocked i5 1st gen can beat a 6 core piledriver he has somewhat tried to back off these claims. Now if amd were that fast why would they sell there 6 core fx6300 for like £82 as they are competing against an i3 haswell.

This is what it would be like discussing your Intel BS with someone who was about AMD, the way you are about Intel:

"But the 4970x has a disadvantage of like 10000000000000% when operating against a 1960's supercomputer because the 1960's supercomputer can take punch card instructions. Intel cannot even take punch card instructions, so the commands are fail. I think the 1960's supercomputers would blow Intel out of the water using punch card instructions and operating on COBOL or FORTRAN, which Intel probably doesn't even support. In fact, a laptop i5 is inferior to anything AMD because the laptop i5 has terrible iGPU. The iGPU in i5 laptop CPUs is so terrible it can't run Crysis 3 at more than 4 FPS. 4 FPS!!!! The laptop i5 is so terrible that it draws like 1000000000000x more power than ARM CPUs in micro tablets. Laptop i5 has 35W TDP and ARM CPUs in micro tablets have TDP of 2W. This means it costs $1,000 more per year to run i5 laptop than ARM micro tablet. I bet the PPW of the ARM micro tablet is like 2.1x and ARM has like 100x better IPC than i5 laptop CPU. Plus ARM can run android, which means the i5 laptop CPU is inferior because it cannot run android. Games are better on 1960's supercomputers that take punch card instructions if the game is programmed with punch card instructions. I bet you that my old K6-2 can beat your laptop i5 in PPW, the TDP on the K6-2 was so low that they could actually use those in laptops...et cetera, et cetera, et cetera..."

Get the picture yet?

 

[8350rocks]

Spoiler

Now look how much of a whitewash this a10-5800k vs i5 4670k is:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/675?vs=837

Even the i5 4670k easily beats out the fx8320:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/698?vs=837

Now the fx8350 vs i5 4670k 2.1x ipc theory really put to test, I think i5 4670k turbos to 3.8ghz vs probably the fx8350 I don't know if it stays at 4ghz or goes to 4.2ghz:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/697?vs=837
Its amazing isn't it the i5 4670k wins a good chunk of these benchmarks but how can it be possible, oh yes my theory is right.

edit: To put how crazy juangra made up benchmarks are a top end i3 haswell cpu is more closer around 20% more closer in performance to an fx8350 then a steamroller 4 core kaveri will be to an i5 ib or in my case i5 haswell cpu.

Then think how crazy the people who really believes this are.

Man, you sure got that right...you must be crazy to believe that garbage you just posted!