AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[jdwii]

you can run that 285 on stock but obviously the the difference in performance will dwindle too the same as it's power consumption. 5w to 10w give or take, still miserable against nvidia if you put it into perspective.

No, because

Performance ~ f
Power ~ f^3

Thus increasing frequency reduces efficiency.

Stop favoring Nvidia cards by repetitively comparing the efficiency and power consumption of overclocked AMD cards to stock Nvidia cards. Using your own words: it is "miserable".

that's cute, but count how many AIBs are actually selling the 285 at stock? then count the difference in $$$ between a stock version and an OC version.

newegg

so you're banking on those who bought the 285 to underclock their cards just to appease you? :lol:

P.S. i love the pseudo-math.

Plus if he really wants to do it we can compare the 970-290X. Its not to be mean its to actually present the facts and Amd knows it, its their fans who don't. Even a simple 10% loss in efficiency can lead to issues on APU's even more so when your CPU's use more power for the same performance compared to Intel. Amd should care more about efficient designs then anyone. Having several Amd equipment i'm actually heavily bias in a lot of ways and that bias still doesn't make me delusional it makes me wishful and hopeful.

 

[jdwii]

AMD Launches A-Series Performance Mobile APUs (Kaveri) in Certain Markets
http://wccftech.com/amd-launches-aseries-performance-mobile-apus-markets/
lots of marketing promo slides.

HBM 3D Stacked Memory is up to 9X Faster Than GDDR5 – Coming With AMD R9 390X and R9 380X 20nm Pirate Islands
http://wccftech.com/amd-20nm-r9-390x-feautres-20nm-hbm-9x-faster-than-gddr5/

Yeah that is going to be amazing. Perhaps i might hold off a bit on upgrading(to many games want more vram).

 

[de5_Roy]

Yeah that is going to be amazing. Perhaps i might hold off a bit on upgrading(to many games want more vram).

same here.
i am also looking forward to verifying some of weclaimcrazyfactsoftech.com's claims like hmc development fell behind and nvidia is adopting hbm which, in their words, was painfully ironic. they also claimed that nvidia never adopts a competitor's standard. one acronym: GDDR5. hmc gaining more momentum is good for amd... but the next 2-6 years seems to be a multi-front/multi-sector tech standards war. gonna be interesting. unless one or some of the key players commit blunders. then it'll be amazing.

before all these, i want pci-sig to develop a low power pcie.

 

[gamerk316]

AMD Launches A-Series Performance Mobile APUs (Kaveri) in Certain Markets
http://wccftech.com/amd-launches-aseries-performance-mobile-apus-markets/
lots of marketing promo slides.

HBM 3D Stacked Memory is up to 9X Faster Than GDDR5 – Coming With AMD R9 390X and R9 380X 20nm Pirate Islands
http://wccftech.com/amd-20nm-r9-390x-feautres-20nm-hbm-9x-faster-than-gddr5/

Yeah that is going to be amazing. Perhaps i might hold off a bit on upgrading(to many games want more vram).

Ironically, games wanting more VRAM is going to be a MAJOR problem for AMD going forward. HSA is relying on sharing access to main memory with the GPU, so if games suddenly want 6GB+ of VRAM, imagine the upward pressure that will put on system RAM? 8GB suddenly becomes far too small for modern PCs, which ends up raising platform costs compared to Intel. That being said, its not clear GPUs can simply keep adding VRAM on die forever.

 

[-Fran-]

Ironically, games wanting more VRAM is going to be a MAJOR problem for AMD going forward. HSA is relying on sharing access to main memory with the GPU, so if games suddenly want 6GB+ of VRAM, imagine the upward pressure that will put on system RAM? 8GB suddenly becomes far too small for modern PCs, which ends up raising platform costs compared to Intel. That being said, its not clear GPUs can simply keep adding VRAM on die forever.

That is a valid point, but for higher quality/resolution combos. I don't think anyone would expect an iGPU to cope with native/supersampling and ultra details settings.

But still, I do wonder how the RAM usage would change in that scenario. It's an interesting topic for research. Mr Angelini, are you reading? haha.

Cheers!

 

[h2323]

hynix teases moar h.b.m. (high bandwidth memory)
http://techreport.com/news/27129/hynix-slides-tease-vertically-stacked-memory-with-256gb-s-of-bandwidth
256GB/s. me like.

applied micro has launched 64bit custome arm soc )afaik, applied micro co-developed arm v8 with arm)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8580/hp-appliedmicro-and-ti-bring-new-arm-servers-to-retail
according to above, amd's seattle hasn't entered production yet.8350rocks, have you heard anything about that?

applied micro apparently has the successor lined up
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/armv8-64-bit-x-gen-hp-moonshot,27784.html

edit3: fixed wording.

I never understood why AMD chose HBM. ARM, Intel, Nvidia, and others chose HMC, which is much faster. Intel will be selling the announced CPU with >500GB/s soon, and both Intel and Nvidia are working in future processors/cards with access to terabyte of bandwith.

AppliedMicro chip will be using a custom core that is about 38% faster than the A57 used in AMD Seattle. And efficiency will be about the same despite AppliedMicro will be using an ancient 40nm node for X-Gene v1. Their v2 will use 28nm and v3 will be using 16nm FinfFET.

Moreover the X-Gene SoC is paired with Nvidia Tesla cards for HPC applications

http://www.apm.com/news/apm-demonstrates-x-gene-for-hpc-environments-at-isc-14/
http://www.hpcwire.com/2014/06/23/gpus-add-arm-chips-hpc/
http://ragingbull.com/forum/topic/1004796

AMD did need Seattle for yesterday. I hope that will launch K12 on time.

AMCC is a pump and dump, the company will likely not even survive. You are just regurgitating their hype that bilked millions from investors.

Does anyone know if there is any truth to AMD having HBM a full year before nvidia and intel equivalents. That would be pretty nuts.

 

[gamerk316]

hynix teases moar h.b.m. (high bandwidth memory)
http://techreport.com/news/27129/hynix-slides-tease-vertically-stacked-memory-with-256gb-s-of-bandwidth
256GB/s. me like.

applied micro has launched 64bit custome arm soc )afaik, applied micro co-developed arm v8 with arm)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8580/hp-appliedmicro-and-ti-bring-new-arm-servers-to-retail
according to above, amd's seattle hasn't entered production yet.8350rocks, have you heard anything about that?

applied micro apparently has the successor lined up
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/armv8-64-bit-x-gen-hp-moonshot,27784.html

edit3: fixed wording.

I never understood why AMD chose HBM. ARM, Intel, Nvidia, and others chose HMC, which is much faster. Intel will be selling the announced CPU with >500GB/s soon, and both Intel and Nvidia are working in future processors/cards with access to terabyte of bandwith.

AppliedMicro chip will be using a custom core that is about 38% faster than the A57 used in AMD Seattle. And efficiency will be about the same despite AppliedMicro will be using an ancient 40nm node for X-Gene v1. Their v2 will use 28nm and v3 will be using 16nm FinfFET.

Moreover the X-Gene SoC is paired with Nvidia Tesla cards for HPC applications

http://www.apm.com/news/apm-demonstrates-x-gene-for-hpc-environments-at-isc-14/
http://www.hpcwire.com/2014/06/23/gpus-add-arm-chips-hpc/
http://ragingbull.com/forum/topic/1004796

AMD did need Seattle for yesterday. I hope that will launch K12 on time.

AMCC is a pump and dump, the company will likely not even survive. You are just regurgitating their hype that bilked millions from investors.

Does anyone know if there is any truth to AMD having HBM a full year before nvidia and intel equivalents. That would be pretty nuts.

It's possible, but I doubt it, simply due to cost concerns. Maybe at the super-high-end, but that's about it. Every other card wouldn't need it, as compute power, rather then memory bandwidth, would be the primary botlteneck, so why drive up costs that way?

 

[jdwii]

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/more-than-one-third-of-people-in-the-us-age-8-play/1100-6422216/
Yeah PC gaming is dead, oooooooooooooooooooooook.

 

[Cazalan]

Does anyone know if there is any truth to AMD having HBM a full year before nvidia and intel equivalents. That would be pretty nuts.

I'd say its impossible for AMD to have a year lead on it. The economics of HBM just doesn't make sense without as many companies as possible using it. According to SKHynix there are 20 so far.

The HBM parts are still just "sampling" from everything I've heard. When a product goes into volume production they announce it on their website as they've done for other DDR4/Flash products this year.

As for Intel they initially said 2015 but Cray (first announced and fully funded system with them) is now saying 2016 delivery. If Cray can't get enough of them with how long they've been in bed with Intel, us consumers certainly can't.

One should note also that Intel wants to side step TSV's with their EMIB process to save costs.

 

[jdwii]

gonna be benchmarking 10 and seeing if there's any improvements or in some cases worse performance today
Anyone here want me to do some benchmarks and show them here? Gonna be using my main rig and possibly my llano laptop.
i know its somewhat off topic but i feel like its important it will probably be the majority OS for desktops/laptops or at the very least i expect to see Windows 7's market get lower.

Edit i now got done with the testing

Spoiler

Windows 8.1
CineBench
http://s14.postimg.org/p7jv5x15t/8_1_Cinebench.png
Wprime
http://s27.postimg.org/k3hw60xtf/8_1_Wprime.png
Fritzchess
http://s11.postimg.org/uts3uirc3/Fritz_Chess_8_1_8_threads.png
Fritzchess 4 threads(testing the scheduler a bit)
http://s7.postimg.org/qofvg8irf/8_1_Fritz_Chess_4_threads.png
Windows 10
Cinebench
http://postimg.org/image/3w0mg0d7d/
Fritzchess 4 threads
http://postimg.org/image/hn53i8255/
Fritzchess
http://postimg.org/image/4hplc489l/
Wprime
http://postimg.org/image/71l867vtl/

Edit again the windows folder is 29Gb alone not sure if it was ever that big? Its just in the first stages though-uses the same amount of ram on idle compared to 8.1 and i had no issues installing the W8 64bit nvidia driver. Gonna use it every day on my main rig to see if i get any BSOD or explorer crash issues.
I think Microsoft might of done it right like they did with 7. Is it worth the upgrade from 7-10 NO when it comes to desktops/laptops. However its not bad for desktop users anymore i can tell you guys it stable don't feel scared about trying it.

 

[8350rocks]

Even if Win7's market share drops some they are not going to coax the XP crowd off of it any time soon, I expect M$ knows this already, hence the BIG push for WinX to be successful across many platforms.

They surely hope by exposing people to WinX across multiple platforms they will get people to homogenize their homes/phones/tablets/etc.

The issue with that lies in the fact that M$ let that train pass them by a long time ago. People no longer care about having windows on their phones/tablets. Why should they? Android has done so many things that M$ would have never let fly, and is available in so many different configurations/phones that M$ would never have allowed.

 

[jdwii]

Its quite pathetic to see people still on XP(with the internet) in this day in age if they hate windows so much at least jump to linux. 8350rocks i understand the constant "M$" statement but if you were a business would you support an OS for over 13 years? I highly doubt it, and no major OS from Apple or linux was supported for nearly that long.

As for the tablet/smartphone statement i agree i love android but it does use a lot of ram(if it even matters anymore). Microsoft is so dumb the potential they had with tablets and people with windows is major they could use it as an second monitor even or interface it with windows but NOOO they have to be Microsoft. Heck even the xbox-tablet crowd i mean really is there people at Microsoft who even considers these things?

 

[juanrga]

AMD Launches A-Series Performance Mobile APUs (Kaveri) in Certain Markets
http://wccftech.com/amd-launches-aseries-performance-mobile-apus-markets/
lots of marketing promo slides.

HBM 3D Stacked Memory is up to 9X Faster Than GDDR5 – Coming With AMD R9 390X and R9 380X 20nm Pirate Islands
http://wccftech.com/amd-20nm-r9-390x-feautres-20nm-hbm-9x-faster-than-gddr5/

Yeah that is going to be amazing. Perhaps i might hold off a bit on upgrading(to many games want more vram).

Ironically, games wanting more VRAM is going to be a MAJOR problem for AMD going forward. HSA is relying on sharing access to main memory with the GPU, so if games suddenly want 6GB+ of VRAM, imagine the upward pressure that will put on system RAM? 8GB suddenly becomes far too small for modern PCs, which ends up raising platform costs compared to Intel. That being said, its not clear GPUs can simply keep adding VRAM on die forever.

HSA's hUMA eliminates the need of having two copies of same data on two different memory polls and moving data between both; thus hUMA reduces bandwidth requirements. Moreover it simplifies programming. Game developers like the uniform memory access to a cache coherent shared address space that HSA provides when compared to old CPU/GPU model.

I don't get why some people is so surprised about a recent game requiring that amount of VRAM. One of the first PS4 demos used 3GB VRAM and several authors recommended then to obtain graphics cards with 6GB VRAM for future proof because they were expecting a increase in graphics requirements for next gen.

 

[8350rocks]

Its quite pathetic to see people still on XP(with the internet) in this day in age if they hate windows so much at least jump to linux. 8350rocks i understand the constant "M$" statement but if you were a business would you support an OS for over 13 years? I highly doubt it, and no major OS from Apple or linux was supported for nearly that long.

As for the tablet/smartphone statement i agree i love android but it does use a lot of ram(if it even matters anymore). Microsoft is so dumb the potential they had with tablets and people with windows is major they could use it as an second monitor even or interface it with windows but NOOO they have to be Microsoft. Heck even the xbox-tablet crowd i mean really is there people at Microsoft who even considers these things?

My reference was to the fact that they just managed to coax the XP crowd into going TO win7, that crowd will surely not be going AWAY from it any time soon...

 

[esrever]

There is only so many thing people actually want in an OS, people won't bother switching unless they have to.

 

[palladin9479]

Its quite pathetic to see people still on XP(with the internet) in this day in age if they hate windows so much at least jump to linux. 8350rocks i understand the constant "M$" statement but if you were a business would you support an OS for over 13 years? I highly doubt it, and no major OS from Apple or linux was supported for nearly that long.

Yes you would. I know of several devices running DOS or WinCE.

From the engineering stand point, you go with whatever works best not with what has the most flashy bells or longest bullet point list. There are many customized XP builds out there with lots of stuff stripped out and specialized LOB applications loaded on them. Prime example is the digital menu board at many Burger Kings, the one with the advertisements and stuff along with the prices. It's nothing but a simple appliance with XP loaded on it that drives a media display. You see OS age as a negative but the industry see's it as a positive, 13 years means you've had 13 years to identify all the bugs, undocumented "features" and fine tune your appliance around it. Going to a "new" OS entails a ton more development money being spent as you relearn the "new" bugs, undocumented features and start to fine tune your appliance around that. It becomes a known element which reduces cost.

 

[UnrelatedTopic]

hynix teases moar h.b.m. (high bandwidth memory)
http://techreport.com/news/27129/hynix-slides-tease-vertically-stacked-memory-with-256gb-s-of-bandwidth
256GB/s. me like.

applied micro has launched 64bit custome arm soc )afaik, applied micro co-developed arm v8 with arm)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8580/hp-appliedmicro-and-ti-bring-new-arm-servers-to-retail
according to above, amd's seattle hasn't entered production yet.8350rocks, have you heard anything about that?

applied micro apparently has the successor lined up
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/armv8-64-bit-x-gen-hp-moonshot,27784.html

edit3: fixed wording.

I never understood why AMD chose HBM. ARM, Intel, Nvidia, and others chose HMC, which is much faster. Intel will be selling the announced CPU with >500GB/s soon, and both Intel and Nvidia are working in future processors/cards with access to terabyte of bandwith.

AppliedMicro chip will be using a custom core that is about 38% faster than the A57 used in AMD Seattle. And efficiency will be about the same despite AppliedMicro will be using an ancient 40nm node for X-Gene v1. Their v2 will use 28nm and v3 will be using 16nm FinfFET.

Moreover the X-Gene SoC is paired with Nvidia Tesla cards for HPC applications

http://www.apm.com/news/apm-demonstrates-x-gene-for-hpc-environments-at-isc-14/
http://www.hpcwire.com/2014/06/23/gpus-add-arm-chips-hpc/
http://ragingbull.com/forum/topic/1004796

AMD did need Seattle for yesterday. I hope that will launch K12 on time.

AMCC is a pump and dump, the company will likely not even survive. You are just regurgitating their hype that bilked millions from investors.

Does anyone know if there is any truth to AMD having HBM a full year before nvidia and intel equivalents. That would be pretty nuts.

Oh man I have a feeling it will end up like the HD7000 series with its xdr memory BS

 

[cdrkf]

Its quite pathetic to see people still on XP(with the internet) in this day in age if they hate windows so much at least jump to linux. 8350rocks i understand the constant "M$" statement but if you were a business would you support an OS for over 13 years? I highly doubt it, and no major OS from Apple or linux was supported for nearly that long.

Yes you would. I know of several devices running DOS or WinCE.

From the engineering stand point, you go with whatever works best not with what has the most flashy bells or longest bullet point list. There are many customized XP builds out there with lots of stuff stripped out and specialized LOB applications loaded on them. Prime example is the digital menu board at many Burger Kings, the one with the advertisements and stuff along with the prices. It's nothing but a simple appliance with XP loaded on it that drives a media display. You see OS age as a negative but the industry see's it as a positive, 13 years means you've had 13 years to identify all the bugs, undocumented "features" and fine tune your appliance around it. Going to a "new" OS entails a ton more development money being spent as you relearn the "new" bugs, undocumented features and start to fine tune your appliance around that. It becomes a known element which reduces cost.

I know- one of my customers is driving a CNC machine from Windows 98. The software in question won't run on anything newer, which is starting to become a problem as you *can't* run windows 98 on any remotely new hardware- it just wont work.....

Unfortunately this means we're probably going to have to replace the control system entirely with something more modern, as otherwise the machine may quickly become a large paperweight...

 

[palladin9479]

Its quite pathetic to see people still on XP(with the internet) in this day in age if they hate windows so much at least jump to linux. 8350rocks i understand the constant "M$" statement but if you were a business would you support an OS for over 13 years? I highly doubt it, and no major OS from Apple or linux was supported for nearly that long.

Yes you would. I know of several devices running DOS or WinCE.

From the engineering stand point, you go with whatever works best not with what has the most flashy bells or longest bullet point list. There are many customized XP builds out there with lots of stuff stripped out and specialized LOB applications loaded on them. Prime example is the digital menu board at many Burger Kings, the one with the advertisements and stuff along with the prices. It's nothing but a simple appliance with XP loaded on it that drives a media display. You see OS age as a negative but the industry see's it as a positive, 13 years means you've had 13 years to identify all the bugs, undocumented "features" and fine tune your appliance around it. Going to a "new" OS entails a ton more development money being spent as you relearn the "new" bugs, undocumented features and start to fine tune your appliance around that. It becomes a known element which reduces cost.

I know- one of my customers is driving a CNC machine from Windows 98. The software in question won't run on anything newer, which is starting to become a problem as you *can't* run windows 98 on any remotely new hardware- it just wont work.....

Unfortunately this means we're probably going to have to replace the control system entirely with something more modern, as otherwise the machine may quickly become a large paperweight...

Yeah I've seen a ton of automated production devices running ancient OS's. They really don't like updating stuff in that field, a small bug could destroy one of those devices and they are not cheap. He could run Win98 on a Via Epia platform, they are practically designed for that type of requirement. Mini-ITX and conform to all current standards but they have supreme backwards compatibility built in, even down to how they present the SATA and COMM ports to the system. If he needs to replace it he might want to look in that direction, industrial applications is one of the area's that VIA dominates precisely for that reason.

 

[gamerk316]

... if you were a business would you support an OS for over 13 years? I highly doubt it, and no major OS from Apple or linux was supported for nearly that long.

A better question would be "If you were a business would you invest several million dollars in HW/SW upgrades every few years, in addition to the time and money regression testing all your software to ensure it continues to work in the way you expect?"

And for most business, the answer is NO. My work still has a 3.1 PC and VAX Workstation backend, simply because we had ONE piece of critical software that needed to be re-written from scratch, and since the old developers are gone, it was decided it was cheaper to just keep the 3.1/VAX alive rather then try and re-engineer working software.

 

[gamerk316]

HSA's hUMA eliminates the need of having two copies of same data on two different memory polls and moving data between both; thus hUMA reduces bandwidth requirements. Moreover it simplifies programming. Game developers like the uniform memory access to a cache coherent shared address space that HSA provides when compared to old CPU/GPU model.

Note you totally ignored my point: By keeping the same memory space, you put upward pressure on RAM requirements (leading to higher platform costs compared to dGPUs), and oh yes, you still have that pesky problem of slow system RAM.

Again, the shared address space is a convenience, but its not like doing a copy of data is a big huge thing like you are making it out to be.

 

[logainofhades]

There is only so many thing people actually want in an OS, people won't bother switching unless they have to.

Pretty much how I feel. I will probably stick with Win 7 Ultimate, until I can't. It does what I need it to do.

 

[gamerk316]

There is only so many thing people actually want in an OS, people won't bother switching unless they have to.

Pretty much how I feel. I will probably stick with Win 7 Ultimate, until I can't. It does what I need it to do.

Same here. I'll upgrade when I junk my system. But as long as my 2600k can power my GPU, I'll be sticking with it. I could honestly see waiting out another 3-4 years the way we're going.

 

[logainofhades]

I have technet licenses for my Win 7, so I can reuse them as often as I want. My 3570k will probably stick around for awhile. As much as I want a mini-itx Xeon rig, I just don't see it happening. Maybe the new AMD arch will be worthwhile enough for me to consider switching, come 2016.

 

[de5_Roy]

Samsung To Ship 14nm FinFET Chips For Apple, Qualcomm And AMD Late Next Year
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-amd-qualcomm-apple-finfet,27808.html