AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[truegenius]

We are all hoping for that including Amd engineers but that would have took a lot of resources to do. Its possible granted. But we are talking about a 50% boost in IPC if so over piledriver-Zen.

If i had more money i'd probably bet that they won't get anymore then 20-30% boost on average in IPC from piledriver to zen. Some rumors are claiming its just going to be a 8 core which is actually fantastic news if so that means they might try for more single core performance. Like others are saying i doubt having a 256bit FPU per core will really hurt them much since the market for anything else is pretty small.

Do we have anymore information about K12?

i am with you, i also think that at max they will get to sandy level ipc (means at max fx4 will be competitive with i5-2500 at same clock)
well i think we will get atleast better single and multithread performance than ph2 ( and i will stop myself from commenting "heil k10" )

I go back to the days of Athlon XPs
I remember OCing the heck out of Bartons and Thunderbirds
I also do try to have an Intel rig also
Last year I had a 1150 socket Xeon
but I made a choice to sell that one and keep my PhII x 6 1100T BE rig
however as of now the way things are if I decided I needed a platform change I would go 1150 or 2011
Pretty sad
I do not even own an AMD GPU anymore
I still have a loyalty to AMD but my money goes to the best performance for the dollar

our x6's (originally intended to compete with 1st gen i7 and it did) are still in top position in toms hierarchy chart in amd list and clocked at 4ghz with higher NB and memory is even better so we got the best amd have ( best of both single thread and multithread work )
nothing from amd provides enough boost over x6 to justify upgrade, heil k10

You guys are not getting it. The review (or preview) is not about AMD vs Nvidia. It is about DX12 vs Mantle vs DX11.

maybe because

dx12 perf preview
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8962/the-directx-12-performance-preview-amd-nvidia-star-swarm

GPU Scaling

For four cores, DX12 provides virtually the same performance increases than Mantle (95%).
For two cores, DX12 can bring up to 14% more performance than Mantle on AMD GPUs!!!
980+DX12 is waaaaaay faster than 290X+DX12 or 290X+Mantle

CPU Scaling

As expected no scaling beyond 4 cores.

Conclusion

Mantle is no longer relevant. It had been a nice approach if had been developed earlier, was much faster than competence, and was not limited to Windows.

Having effectively ruled out the need for 6 core CPUs for Star Swarm, let’s take a look at a breakdown across all of our cards for performance with 2 and 4 cores. What we find is that Star Swarm and DirectX 12 are so efficient that only our most powerful card, the GTX 980, finds itself CPU-bound with just 2 cores. For the AMD cards and other NVIDIA cards we can get GPU bound with the equivalent of an Intel Core i3 processor, showcasing just how effective DirectX 12’s improved batch submission process can be. In fact it’s so efficient that Oxide is running both batch submission and a complete AI simulation over just 2 cores.

Oh boy, the i3 is going to look SOOOOO good with DX12. AMD is going to regret Mantle if that's the case, since they competed themselves out of the low-end CPU race as a result.

so, it looks like time for some correction here (atleast for dx12/mantle)
"The era of 'you just need a dual core' is now ending." .- palladin9479 -.

 

[-Fran-]

I see it different. Mantle is a lower API than DX12. Mantle, being more close to the metal, would be much faster than DX12. And we see DX12 even beating Mantle on GCN hardware!!! This is very weird. And the demo being originally created for Mantle adds to the general disappoint because runs neck-to-neck and in some case runs significantly better on top of another API.

Sincerely, I was expecting DX12 to be somewhat in the middle between DX11 and Mantle.

You didn't get it. When I said the demo was created for MANTLE, that implies the DX12 path is not going to be much different from what they did with MANTL's. That explains why you see close results from both and still see MANTLE ahead constantly. This is a blind shot, but is as good as assuming the DX12 path and MANTLE's are different. In any case, there's an update around this topic for batch submission; go read it.

You need a ton of Salt for this demo, because it only works as a tech preview and nothing else. Like the same article mentions "this is a *best* case scenario for DX12". So, in short, it looks good and promising, but do not draw WIDE conclusions based on this demo. Wait for a more complete take at what DX12 can do. That's why I said 3D Mark or something like that.

Plus, immature drivers. Plus, the 290X was meant to compete against the 780ti / Titan, not the 980. And as you can see, there is no 780 nor 970 in there. I hope they update the article with them.

Cheers!

 

[-Fran-]

so, it looks like time for some correction here (atleast for dx12/mantle)
"The era of 'you just need a dual core' is now ending." .- palladin9479 -.

I still see quad cores pumping better numbers for high end cards. Your sarcasm is misplaced. Plus, that is for more than just games, although I do remember it was said in the context of games.

Cheers!

 

[de5_Roy]

@TG: dual cores are done alright. keep in mind that dx12 helps with gaming only, you'd still have to contend with non-gaming application performance and multitasking.


i'll always fondly remember 2011 when i [strike]vented my disappointment of bd pricing and gaming perf by making snide remarks at[/strike] poked fun at amd cpus' gaming performance and amd user's reactions to gaming cpu/gfx card articles.... but this is 2015 and dual core processors are done. now you can get a tri/quad module dcpu under $100-120 if you keep an eye out for deals. quad core cpu under $120 and a gaming (the ones with better audio chips and caps et al) mobo under $150. slap a $250-300 radeon/geforce on it and with dx12, you have a decent gaming platform. good times ahead.

You need a Ton of Salt for this demo, because it only works as a tech preview and nothing else.

+NaCl. star swarm was and is still a tech demo as well as a synthetic benchmark.

edit2: ooh quick edit is working again (thanks toms!). hopefully the serial replies will stop now.

 

[Cazalan]

Looks like AMD can say mission accomplished now. Mantle forced Microsoft to get their s$#t together and finally make some major advances with DX. Well played AMD!

Its like when Intel was fiddling around with Itanium as their 64bit platform. AMD said screw that, if you don't update x86 for 64bit we will. And they did. Intel could have dragged their feet for years and the landscape would be entirely different now.

Of course there will be those short sighted people disparaging Mantle now.

 

[-Fran-]

Looks like AMD can say mission accomplished now. Mantle forced Microsoft to get their s$#t together and finally make some major advances with DX. Well played AMD!

Its like when Intel was fiddling around with Itanium as their 64bit platform. AMD said screw that, if you don't update x86 for 64bit we will. And they did. Intel could have dragged their feet for years and the landscape would be entirely different now.

Of course there will be those short sighted people disparaging Mantle now.

Thank you Cazalan.

That is a honest interpretation of events around MANTLE as well. Now, I need to think AMD has to capitalize on their venture somehow. They capitalized on X86-64 by forcing the cross licence with Intel, but I don't see how they can with MANTLE and nVidia/Intel/Microsoft; although DX12 sounds like a capitalization on MS, I can't see it clearly.

Cheers!

 

[palladin9479]

so, it looks like time for some correction here (atleast for dx12/mantle)
"The era of 'you just need a dual core' is now ending." .- palladin9479 -.

If you'd been paying attention you'd know that the Haswell i3 isn't really a pure dual core due to Intel adding a fourth ALU to it as a way to increase HT performance. The Pentium G would be a "dual core" in that comparison.

Now add on anti-virus, webbrowser, kernel memory management, various background services and any voice chat / media service that's going on and you suddenly need at least one additional core to prevent stalling. The golden rule is "number of required cores +1", so if a program will use two cores fully then you want a third core, if it's three then you want a fourth and so on.

 

[blackkstar]

Maxwell isn't even fully DX12 compliant. It only partially supports DX12. The headlines are basically "You can use DX12 on old GPUs but you won't get some features."

Also, DX12 is basically confirmed for Windows 10 only at this point: http://www.vg247.com/2015/01/23/you-wont-need-a-new-gpu-for-directx-12-except-for-some-features/

“There will be DX 11.1 cards that take advantage of a lot of the driver and software tech that we’re bringing in Windows 10, but if you want the full benefits of DX12, you’re going to need a DX12 card,” he said.

At this point, it depends on what sort of vendor lock in you want. You can either choose Mantle and be tied to AMD hardware, or DX12 and be tied to Windows 10. Mantle will still offer advantages over DX12 since Mantle will allow for porting to other platforms while DX12 is Windows 10 only.

Mantle's relevancy is going to end up depending on if it's very easy to port to DX12. Looking at previous slides, portability has been a central factor in Mantle. Something I can assure you is not only missing from DX12, but actively being prevented.

Brace yourselves, the Nvidia-friendly sites, like Anandtech, are going to rev up the shilling for Windows 10 and DX12. I called this on various forums months and months ago. Nvidia is going to become a champion for forcing people into Windows 10, and people are going to lap it up. The fun comes from the fact Maxwell isn't even fully DX12 compliant.

Here's how I expect it to play out. MS will bring us Windows 10 with some crappy features we don't want. Nvidia and tech sites will shill it because muh DX12 and you don't have to buy "inefficient AMD graphic cards!" And people will bend over backward to take whatever MS dumps on them.

They didn't have a reason for desktop users to upgrade to Windows 8. Now they are going to be able to force whatever they want on gamers since they'll deal with it for DX12 support. MS is loving it because it's going to force people to upgrade and it's going to seriously damage things like SteamOS and Linux gaming.

One more bonus prediction. DX12 is based heavily off Mantle. Nvidia users will swarm and talk about how DX12 is so much better than Mantle. AMD should have just kept this to themselves and not forked anything over to MS. They're going to regret it, and all the work they did with Mantle is going to be swept under the rug. In fact, it's going to end up actively harming them because it's going to be all about how DX12 is so superior to Mantle.

AMD need to wake up and realize that they aren't going to get anywhere by playing nice. Mantle should have been kept as a premium API for AMD products that lured in developers with promises of extremely easy porting to different platforms. Now, they're going to fight against MS and Nvidia using their own version of Mantle.

 

[juanrga]

You guys are not getting it. The review (or preview) is not about AMD vs Nvidia. It is about DX12 vs Mantle vs DX11.

maybe because

dx12 perf preview
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8962/the-directx-12-performance-preview-amd-nvidia-star-swarm

GPU Scaling

For four cores, DX12 provides virtually the same performance increases than Mantle (95%).
For two cores, DX12 can bring up to 14% more performance than Mantle on AMD GPUs!!!
980+DX12 is waaaaaay faster than 290X+DX12 or 290X+Mantle

CPU Scaling

As expected no scaling beyond 4 cores.

Conclusion

Mantle is no longer relevant. It had been a nice approach if had been developed earlier, was much faster than competence, and was not limited to Windows.

One secondary comment on a post that is mainly devoted to DX12 vs Mantle is not the same than those other posts that only focus on Nvidia vs AMD and ignore the main point.

 

[jdwii]

so, it looks like time for some correction here (atleast for dx12/mantle)
"The era of 'you just need a dual core' is now ending." .- palladin9479 -.

If you'd been paying attention you'd know that the Haswell i3 isn't really a pure dual core due to Intel adding a fourth ALU to it as a way to increase HT performance. The Pentium G would be a "dual core" in that comparison.

Now add on anti-virus, webbrowser, kernel memory management, various background services and any voice chat / media service that's going on and you suddenly need at least one additional core to prevent stalling. The golden rule is "number of required cores +1", so if a program will use two cores fully then you want a third core, if it's three then you want a fourth and so on.

Sadly in every single game i saw gains in performance with my 4360 something i didn't think was going to happen i at least thought games like watch dogs would be slower. Actually Watch dogs was slower overall in FPS however microstutter disappeared. Some games were dramatically faster in some cases even newer ones. If Intel made a tri core I3 i'd probably say we wouldn't see any competition in gaming from Amd above the 120$ range.

General performance felt the same as well, under my benchmarks in multithreaded cases it performed slightly above a 4300. Haswell also added more cache to the I3 haswell refresh as well and i think it gave that final push in gaming.

 

[jdwii]

Maxwell isn't even fully DX12 compliant. It only partially supports DX12. The headlines are basically "You can use DX12 on old GPUs but you won't get some features."

Also, DX12 is basically confirmed for Windows 10 only at this point: http://www.vg247.com/2015/01/23/you-wont-need-a-new-gpu-for-directx-12-except-for-some-features/

“There will be DX 11.1 cards that take advantage of a lot of the driver and software tech that we’re bringing in Windows 10, but if you want the full benefits of DX12, you’re going to need a DX12 card,” he said.

At this point, it depends on what sort of vendor lock in you want. You can either choose Mantle and be tied to AMD hardware, or DX12 and be tied to Windows 10. Mantle will still offer advantages over DX12 since Mantle will allow for porting to other platforms while DX12 is Windows 10 only.

Mantle's relevancy is going to end up depending on if it's very easy to port to DX12. Looking at previous slides, portability has been a central factor in Mantle. Something I can assure you is not only missing from DX12, but actively being prevented.

Brace yourselves, the Nvidia-friendly sites, like Anandtech, are going to rev up the shilling for Windows 10 and DX12. I called this on various forums months and months ago. Nvidia is going to become a champion for forcing people into Windows 10, and people are going to lap it up. The fun comes from the fact Maxwell isn't even fully DX12 compliant.

Here's how I expect it to play out. MS will bring us Windows 10 with some crappy features we don't want. Nvidia and tech sites will shill it because muh DX12 and you don't have to buy "inefficient AMD graphic cards!" And people will bend over backward to take whatever MS dumps on them.

They didn't have a reason for desktop users to upgrade to Windows 8. Now they are going to be able to force whatever they want on gamers since they'll deal with it for DX12 support. MS is loving it because it's going to force people to upgrade and it's going to seriously damage things like SteamOS and Linux gaming.

One more bonus prediction. DX12 is based heavily off Mantle. Nvidia users will swarm and talk about how DX12 is so much better than Mantle. AMD should have just kept this to themselves and not forked anything over to MS. They're going to regret it, and all the work they did with Mantle is going to be swept under the rug. In fact, it's going to end up actively harming them because it's going to be all about how DX12 is so superior to Mantle.

AMD need to wake up and realize that they aren't going to get anywhere by playing nice. Mantle should have been kept as a premium API for AMD products that lured in developers with promises of extremely easy porting to different platforms. Now, they're going to fight against MS and Nvidia using their own version of Mantle.

Not this again, one 10 is free and better then 8-8.1 in every way. Two, 7 is from 2009 and for gamers 10 is a free upgrade that will easily be done using Windows update. Leave it up to geeks to put down a company giving a free OS away, heck i'm wondering if it has some NSA stuff in it since they are pushing it so bad, that's actually my main worry lol.

Now with this Microsoft stole mantle and called it directx 12 nonsense I've been hearing it like crazy and tbh i don't by it for one we have NO PROOF at all. It sounds even more likely Microsoft gave Amd a beta version to use(not saying the did i don't know).

Actually what i find funny is Amd tried saying 12 wasn't happening and Microsoft later confirmed 12 was being made before mantle was brought to the market. What do you think happened? Amd showed Microsoft the source code they stole it or something and then Intel and Nvidia ran in there as well and said good job.

 

[palladin9479]

so, it looks like time for some correction here (atleast for dx12/mantle)
"The era of 'you just need a dual core' is now ending." .- palladin9479 -.

If you'd been paying attention you'd know that the Haswell i3 isn't really a pure dual core due to Intel adding a fourth ALU to it as a way to increase HT performance. The Pentium G would be a "dual core" in that comparison.

Now add on anti-virus, webbrowser, kernel memory management, various background services and any voice chat / media service that's going on and you suddenly need at least one additional core to prevent stalling. The golden rule is "number of required cores +1", so if a program will use two cores fully then you want a third core, if it's three then you want a fourth and so on.

Sadly in every single game i saw gains in performance with my 4360 something i didn't think was going to happen i at least thought games like watch dogs would be slower. Actually Watch dogs was slower overall in FPS however microstutter disappeared. Some games were dramatically faster in some cases even newer ones. If Intel made a tri core I3 i'd probably say we wouldn't see any competition in gaming from Amd above the 120$ range.

General performance felt the same as well, under my benchmarks in multithreaded cases it performed slightly above a 4300. Haswell also added more cache to the I3 haswell refresh as well and i think it gave that final push in gaming.

I pretty much equate a Haswell i3 to a fx6300in overall value / usability. Both are pretty much the bare minimum is someone is going to play more then facebook / minimal 3D games. Or just for general purpose computing, having additional separately addressed processing resources prevents / severely reduces system lag (one applications bad behavior causing the whole system to slow down). So Haswell i3 / PD fx6300 < PD fx8350 < Haswell i5 < Haswell i7. The eight core PD CPU is for a very niche segment, people who actually do things that require many separate threads but aren't easily run on a GPU (or would get in the way of something else running on the GPU). APU's are a completely different situation and shouldn't really be seen as anything more then light casual gaming for SFF or appliance devices.

 

[szatkus]

I do not think at least here on the forums anyone thinks amd stole code from ms for mantle, It is more like amd and ms have a much closer relationship now and shared code for better compatibility. consoles use dx and ms wants to make darn sure game developers continue to use dx as the predominate api for games. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer

I think that everything started at Apple. AMD hired some GPU people from Apple few years ago. Their own API was released a few months after Mantle, but it was complete and stable.

 

[juanrga]

You need a ton of Salt for this demo, because it only works as a tech preview and nothing else. Like the same article mentions "this is a *best* case scenario for DX12". So, in short, it looks good and promising, but do not draw WIDE conclusions based on this demo. Wait for a more complete take at what DX12 can do. That's why I said 3D Mark or something like that.

The demo makes lots of calls and is, as mentioned in the article, a best case scenario for the new APIs. Usual games will see less improvement over DX11 than what this demo shows. But, and this was my point, if in the best case possible a new unpolished higher level API (DX12) obtains the same performance than an old more polished low level API (Mantle) then Mantle is not only mediocre, but has no future.

Looks like AMD can say mission accomplished now. Mantle forced Microsoft to get their s$#t together and finally make some major advances with DX. Well played AMD!

What is well played? Sony and Microsoft are unhappy with AMD because ruined their long-term console plans by providing console-like optimizations to gaming PCs. Apple rejected Mantle and developed its own API. Valve rejected Mantle and developed its own API. Microsoft DX12 makes Mantle unneeded for PCs. Nvidia wins AMD on its own prototypical demo. Intel dual cores receive a free life extension...

Which are the benefits that Mantle has provided to AMD. Where are? Is AMD selling more graphics cards? More CPUs? More APUs? Is receiving royalties from the API?

Its like when Intel was fiddling around with Itanium as their 64bit platform. AMD said screw that, if you don't update x86 for 64bit we will. And they did. Intel could have dragged their feet for years and the landscape would be entirely different now.

Intel tried something very smart and revolutionary. They tried to replace the weird, bloated, and non-scalable x86 ISA by a new, clean, and scalable ISA. The goal was too aggressive and both Intel and HP did some fundamental mistakes, but with some modifications I think a second try had been nice and today we would have better computers.

AMD did the easy thing: a 64-bit extension to X86. Now x86-64 is one of the poor ISAs on use. It is bloated, has lots of useless legacy code and, the more important, it is not scalable. Thanks to it we are limited to ~10% IPC gains per gen and probably 8-issue will be a practical barrier for x86-84 chips.

AMD carved its own grave. There is a saying in Spain that says "pan para hoy y hambre para mañana".

At least ARM engineers were more smart and didn't develop a simple 64bit extension to A32, but developed a new, clean, and separate ISA: A64.

 

[juanrga]

At this point, it depends on what sort of vendor lock in you want. You can either choose Mantle and be tied to AMD hardware, or DX12 and be tied to Windows 10. Mantle will still offer advantages over DX12 since Mantle will allow for porting to other platforms while DX12 is Windows 10 only.

The question is what will do most of game developers? Will develop Mantle games working only on the minor graphics hardware player (20% market share) or will develop DX12 games working on the 100% of the market: Nvidia+AMD+Intel?

I believe the answer is obvious.

Mantle's relevancy is going to end up depending on if it's very easy to port to DX12. Looking at previous slides, portability has been a central factor in Mantle. Something I can assure you is not only missing from DX12, but actively being prevented.

Portability is a myth. No game developer is going to make a game for Mantle and then port it to DX12. DX12 will be selected first.

AMD need to wake up and realize that they aren't going to get anywhere by playing nice. Mantle should have been kept as a premium API for AMD products that lured in developers with promises of extremely easy porting to different platforms. Now, they're going to fight against MS and Nvidia using their own version of Mantle.

Trying to sell Mantle as a "Premium API" will suffer the same fate than when AMD tried to sell overclocked Piledriver as Premium CPUs for enthusiasts. I am referring to the fiasco of the FX-9000 series.

 

[wh3resmycar]

The question is what will do most of game developers? Will develop Mantle games working only on the minor graphics hardware player (20% market share) or will develop DX12 games working on the 100% of the market: Nvidia+AMD+Intel?

I believe the answer is obvious.

took you long enough, i guess we can bury the "linux majority in the videogaming market" you were blabbering about from last year.

 

[juanrga]

The question is what will do most of game developers? Will develop Mantle games working only on the minor graphics hardware player (20% market share) or will develop DX12 games working on the 100% of the market: Nvidia+AMD+Intel?

I believe the answer is obvious.

took you long enough, i guess we can bury the "linux majority in the videogaming market" you were blabbering about from last year.

I was discussing what Windows developers will do. Will they chose Mantle (which only works under Windows) or DX12? I answered that. I didn't mention Linux developers at all, but since you are asking me...

Linux devs will use glNext, which will be better than DX12/Mantle. AMD didn't even bother to release the promised Mantle for Linux.

OS market share has not changed significantly since last round and Windows continues being a minority OS compared to Linux.

One datum: only on the USA December of last year, mobile games generate revenue of $4B whereas PC gaming was $2.6B.

Global the tendency is

P.S: I fixed the broken tags in your original post.

 

[wh3resmycar]

you fail to understand the very thing you posted. you're not suggesting casual webplayers are running redhat aren't you?

 

[blackkstar]

Maxwell isn't even fully DX12 compliant. It only partially supports DX12. The headlines are basically "You can use DX12 on old GPUs but you won't get some features."

Also, DX12 is basically confirmed for Windows 10 only at this point: http://www.vg247.com/2015/01/23/you-wont-need-a-new-gpu-for-directx-12-except-for-some-features/

“There will be DX 11.1 cards that take advantage of a lot of the driver and software tech that we’re bringing in Windows 10, but if you want the full benefits of DX12, you’re going to need a DX12 card,” he said.

At this point, it depends on what sort of vendor lock in you want. You can either choose Mantle and be tied to AMD hardware, or DX12 and be tied to Windows 10. Mantle will still offer advantages over DX12 since Mantle will allow for porting to other platforms while DX12 is Windows 10 only.

Mantle's relevancy is going to end up depending on if it's very easy to port to DX12. Looking at previous slides, portability has been a central factor in Mantle. Something I can assure you is not only missing from DX12, but actively being prevented.

Brace yourselves, the Nvidia-friendly sites, like Anandtech, are going to rev up the shilling for Windows 10 and DX12. I called this on various forums months and months ago. Nvidia is going to become a champion for forcing people into Windows 10, and people are going to lap it up. The fun comes from the fact Maxwell isn't even fully DX12 compliant.

Here's how I expect it to play out. MS will bring us Windows 10 with some crappy features we don't want. Nvidia and tech sites will shill it because muh DX12 and you don't have to buy "inefficient AMD graphic cards!" And people will bend over backward to take whatever MS dumps on them.

They didn't have a reason for desktop users to upgrade to Windows 8. Now they are going to be able to force whatever they want on gamers since they'll deal with it for DX12 support. MS is loving it because it's going to force people to upgrade and it's going to seriously damage things like SteamOS and Linux gaming.

One more bonus prediction. DX12 is based heavily off Mantle. Nvidia users will swarm and talk about how DX12 is so much better than Mantle. AMD should have just kept this to themselves and not forked anything over to MS. They're going to regret it, and all the work they did with Mantle is going to be swept under the rug. In fact, it's going to end up actively harming them because it's going to be all about how DX12 is so superior to Mantle.

AMD need to wake up and realize that they aren't going to get anywhere by playing nice. Mantle should have been kept as a premium API for AMD products that lured in developers with promises of extremely easy porting to different platforms. Now, they're going to fight against MS and Nvidia using their own version of Mantle.

Not this again, one 10 is free and better then 8-8.1 in every way. Two, 7 is from 2009 and for gamers 10 is a free upgrade that will easily be done using Windows update. Leave it up to geeks to put down a company giving a free OS away, heck i'm wondering if it has some NSA stuff in it since they are pushing it so bad, that's actually my main worry lol.

Now with this Microsoft stole mantle and called it directx 12 nonsense I've been hearing it like crazy and tbh i don't by it for one we have NO PROOF at all. It sounds even more likely Microsoft gave Amd a beta version to use(not saying the did i don't know).

Actually what i find funny is Amd tried saying 12 wasn't happening and Microsoft later confirmed 12 was being made before mantle was brought to the market. What do you think happened? Amd showed Microsoft the source code they stole it or something and then Intel and Nvidia ran in there as well and said good job.

I do not think at least here on the forums anyone thinks amd stole code from ms for mantle, It is more like amd and ms have a much closer relationship now and shared code for better compatibility. consoles use dx and ms wants to make darn sure game developers continue to use dx as the predominate api for games. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer

No, DX12 is very heavily influenced by Mantle, not the other way around. AMD was open and gladly shared things with Microsoft.

Look at the wording of Microsoft's claims. "DX12 was being made before Mantle was brought to market." That doesn't even state that DX12 development started before Mantle development, only that work on DX12 started before Mantle was released. Mantle was in development before it was released...

Mantle came first, it should be no surprise. It's why others in this thread are glad to see Microsoft actually do something about DirectX. When Microsoft announced DX12 existed, game engines were already announcing support for Mantle. There is no need to revise history, Mantle came first.

The time between DX11 and DX12 release is also around twice that of the time between DX9 and DX10 release and DX10 and DX 11 release.

I also think some of you are under-estimating some company's desire to no longer be tied to Windows ecosystem. Windows 8 scared a lot of people and they realized relying on Microsoft is not a solid plan. Valve created their own Linux distribution. EA worked very closely with AMD to bring us Mantle, which if you read the wikipedia page, has a lot of references to the portability of Mantle. And Origin, EA's game client alternative to Steam, is written in the cross-platform library QT. Steam already has a native Linux port with Linux games, and Linux gaming is actually quite good. Some of you are thinking that if Linux gaming won't beat Windows gaming in the next few years, that there's no point in Linux gaming. It's slowly showing more and more support and the amount of games are improving.

It is rather comical how some of you fought against vendor lock in of Mantle to AMD hardware, and now you defend vendor lock in to Windows with DX12 so whole-heartedly. And what's really entertaining, is the fact that Mantle actually brought new things to the table, while DX12 is the copycat not offering significant upgrades to Mantle outside of $5 in power savings if you game 40 hours a week for a year and shifting the vendor lock in from AMD to Windows. So quick some of you are to forgive Microsoft for abandoning you completely with Windows 8. I suppose lies about 4GB of ram, ROP count, L2 cache, deceptive TDP specifications, and Windows throwing you under the bus can be forgiven if you get a copycat of Mantle and you don't have to buy AMD hardware, but you can keep enjoying the sweet, sweet way Microsoft and Nvidia treat you.

@Juan, why do you think it's fair to group Android, iOS, and other platforms together that get the same games as different ports, but consoles and PC, who generally get the same games ported, are divided up? When you combine consoles, MMOs, and core PC, you end up with 58% of revenue in 2015.

If you make a AAA game for hardcore market, you're basically expected to release on Windows + Xbone + PS4 at the very least. Yet those are all cut up in your image. Yet iOS, Android, Windows Phone, etc all enjoy the luxury of being grouped into mobile market. Why isn't your data divided up properly to either divide mobile platforms like core gaming platforms or to group core gaming platforms together? It's rather deceptive if you ask me.

 

[jdwii]

Maxwell isn't even fully DX12 compliant. It only partially supports DX12. The headlines are basically "You can use DX12 on old GPUs but you won't get some features."

Also, DX12 is basically confirmed for Windows 10 only at this point: http://www.vg247.com/2015/01/23/you-wont-need-a-new-gpu-for-directx-12-except-for-some-features/

“There will be DX 11.1 cards that take advantage of a lot of the driver and software tech that we’re bringing in Windows 10, but if you want the full benefits of DX12, you’re going to need a DX12 card,” he said.

At this point, it depends on what sort of vendor lock in you want. You can either choose Mantle and be tied to AMD hardware, or DX12 and be tied to Windows 10. Mantle will still offer advantages over DX12 since Mantle will allow for porting to other platforms while DX12 is Windows 10 only.

Mantle's relevancy is going to end up depending on if it's very easy to port to DX12. Looking at previous slides, portability has been a central factor in Mantle. Something I can assure you is not only missing from DX12, but actively being prevented.

Brace yourselves, the Nvidia-friendly sites, like Anandtech, are going to rev up the shilling for Windows 10 and DX12. I called this on various forums months and months ago. Nvidia is going to become a champion for forcing people into Windows 10, and people are going to lap it up. The fun comes from the fact Maxwell isn't even fully DX12 compliant.

Here's how I expect it to play out. MS will bring us Windows 10 with some crappy features we don't want. Nvidia and tech sites will shill it because muh DX12 and you don't have to buy "inefficient AMD graphic cards!" And people will bend over backward to take whatever MS dumps on them.

They didn't have a reason for desktop users to upgrade to Windows 8. Now they are going to be able to force whatever they want on gamers since they'll deal with it for DX12 support. MS is loving it because it's going to force people to upgrade and it's going to seriously damage things like SteamOS and Linux gaming.

One more bonus prediction. DX12 is based heavily off Mantle. Nvidia users will swarm and talk about how DX12 is so much better than Mantle. AMD should have just kept this to themselves and not forked anything over to MS. They're going to regret it, and all the work they did with Mantle is going to be swept under the rug. In fact, it's going to end up actively harming them because it's going to be all about how DX12 is so superior to Mantle.

AMD need to wake up and realize that they aren't going to get anywhere by playing nice. Mantle should have been kept as a premium API for AMD products that lured in developers with promises of extremely easy porting to different platforms. Now, they're going to fight against MS and Nvidia using their own version of Mantle.

Not this again, one 10 is free and better then 8-8.1 in every way. Two, 7 is from 2009 and for gamers 10 is a free upgrade that will easily be done using Windows update. Leave it up to geeks to put down a company giving a free OS away, heck i'm wondering if it has some NSA stuff in it since they are pushing it so bad, that's actually my main worry lol.

Now with this Microsoft stole mantle and called it directx 12 nonsense I've been hearing it like crazy and tbh i don't by it for one we have NO PROOF at all. It sounds even more likely Microsoft gave Amd a beta version to use(not saying the did i don't know).

Actually what i find funny is Amd tried saying 12 wasn't happening and Microsoft later confirmed 12 was being made before mantle was brought to the market. What do you think happened? Amd showed Microsoft the source code they stole it or something and then Intel and Nvidia ran in there as well and said good job.

I do not think at least here on the forums anyone thinks amd stole code from ms for mantle, It is more like amd and ms have a much closer relationship now and shared code for better compatibility. consoles use dx and ms wants to make darn sure game developers continue to use dx as the predominate api for games. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer

No, DX12 is very heavily influenced by Mantle, not the other way around. AMD was open and gladly shared things with Microsoft.

Look at the wording of Microsoft's claims. "DX12 was being made before Mantle was brought to market." That doesn't even state that DX12 development started before Mantle development, only that work on DX12 started before Mantle was released. Mantle was in development before it was released...

Mantle came first, it should be no surprise. It's why others in this thread are glad to see Microsoft actually do something about DirectX. When Microsoft announced DX12 existed, game engines were already announcing support for Mantle. There is no need to revise history, Mantle came first.

The time between DX11 and DX12 release is also around twice that of the time between DX9 and DX10 release and DX10 and DX 11 release.

I also think some of you are under-estimating some company's desire to no longer be tied to Windows ecosystem. Windows 8 scared a lot of people and they realized relying on Microsoft is not a solid plan. Valve created their own Linux distribution. EA worked very closely with AMD to bring us Mantle, which if you read the wikipedia page, has a lot of references to the portability of Mantle. And Origin, EA's game client alternative to Steam, is written in the cross-platform library QT. Steam already has a native Linux port with Linux games, and Linux gaming is actually quite good. Some of you are thinking that if Linux gaming won't beat Windows gaming in the next few years, that there's no point in Linux gaming. It's slowly showing more and more support and the amount of games are improving.

It is rather comical how some of you fought against vendor lock in of Mantle to AMD hardware, and now you defend vendor lock in to Windows with DX12 so whole-heartedly. And what's really entertaining, is the fact that Mantle actually brought new things to the table, while DX12 is the copycat not offering significant upgrades to Mantle outside of $5 in power savings if you game 40 hours a week for a year and shifting the vendor lock in from AMD to Windows. So quick some of you are to forgive Microsoft for abandoning you completely with Windows 8. I suppose lies about 4GB of ram, ROP count, L2 cache, deceptive TDP specifications, and Windows throwing you under the bus can be forgiven if you get a copycat of Mantle and you don't have to buy AMD hardware, but you can keep enjoying the sweet, sweet way Microsoft and Nvidia treat you.

@Juan, why do you think it's fair to group Android, iOS, and other platforms together that get the same games as different ports, but consoles and PC, who generally get the same games ported, are divided up? When you combine consoles, MMOs, and core PC, you end up with 58% of revenue in 2015.

If you make a AAA game for hardcore market, you're basically expected to release on Windows + Xbone + PS4 at the very least. Yet those are all cut up in your image. Yet iOS, Android, Windows Phone, etc all enjoy the luxury of being grouped into mobile market. Why isn't your data divided up properly to either divide mobile platforms like core gaming platforms or to group core gaming platforms together? It's rather deceptive if you ask me.

Again you have no concrete evidence. We still have no proof that Microsoft copied anything and you still didn't mention how Amd claimed 12 wasn't happening how is that possible if they shared things with them?

Also people were more turned away from Vista then 8 and that didn't stop 7 sales, i hated vista myself and XP but 7 and 8.1 i find usable. The reason why people were mad about Mantle being Amd only is just that with directx 12 it will work on all hardware and most game on windows anyways. As for linux gaming getting better well duh its like saying a kids grade is getting better since he/she has a D now instead of an F it could only get better.

With 10 being free and 12 being just as good as mantle i honestly think Linux gaming(on the desktop/laptop market) just saw it getting pushed as being a niche market again(well more so then it already is).

Its been 2 years we still have no final steam OS its been 2 years they still don't even have a final prototype controller. Its been 2 years and they still don't have OpenGL next out. We are waiting and waiting while Microsoft is releasing everything in October and already has the support of 20 years behind them and that includes backwards compatibility.

Not only that but 12 will work on the Xbox as well probably making somethings easier for the developers to cross-platform games for example i'm sure the directx 12 librarys on the console and PC share more code with each other then the upcoming OpenGl Next and directx 12.

Now your last few paragraphs make a lot of sense and i agree. Its also funny how they compare the PS+Xbox+Wii to just one platform the PC, its even more funny that PC game sales beat consoles revenue overall but is rarely mentioned.

Now about this linux bit i want it to be true but i'm not going to even think about switching until all my games are supported without this wine crap or some other lame way. I want native support like steam. Also i won't use both when i can just use one OS unless i see major gains that are reported on sites not fanboy's who claim they can get 4000% more performance in minecraft on linux(this person in my college said that).

Sometimes i'm not sure what's worse linux fanboys or Amd ones or even sport team fanboys. I just want professional proof of these things before i just claim crap. Bias is a horrible thing and a horrible evolutionary trait.

 

[juanrga]

@Juan, why do you think it's fair to group Android, iOS, and other platforms together that get the same games as different ports, but consoles and PC, who generally get the same games ported, are divided up? When you combine consoles, MMOs, and core PC, you end up with 58% of revenue in 2015.

If you make a AAA game for hardcore market, you're basically expected to release on Windows + Xbone + PS4 at the very least. Yet those are all cut up in your image. Yet iOS, Android, Windows Phone, etc all enjoy the luxury of being grouped into mobile market. Why isn't your data divided up properly to either divide mobile platforms like core gaming platforms or to group core gaming platforms together? It's rather deceptive if you ask me.

My discussion was Linux vs Windows. Windows is a minority OS those days and above data shows how linux games market is actually bigger than Windows games market. I don't care how they split or divide each group. You can group same data on a million ways different but reality doesn't change. Ask yourself why Microsoft will be giving Windows 10 for free...

 

[jdwii]

Yes Linux is the number 1 platform for gaming if we include mobile gaming. Juan is correct about that. Not only that but we can see handheld gaming devices lose share. When we talk about gaming we mean PC,Mac,Linux(on the desktop/laptop) vs consoles. And yes the do treat the PC as one platform and compare it to all the consoles in one group which is unfair.

I don't get mobile gaming with people(i know people here are better at least i hope). I have a nexus 7 and played several games and i wanted to cry they ruin all of them. I tried Simcity on android great graphics but the gameplay sucks i mean really badly nothing like simcity at all. Then i tried racing games and felt like it was made in 1 day, plus i tried the free sims game and man what a load of crap its like people are willing to play and buy anything.

Mobile gaming is here if we like it or not and imo its ruining gaming as we know it.

 

[-Fran-]

My discussion was Linux vs Windows. Windows is a minority OS those days and above data shows how linux games market is actually bigger than Windows games market. I don't care how they split or divide each group. You can group same data on a million ways different but reality doesn't change. Ask yourself why Microsoft will be giving Windows 10 for free...

I do agree on the insinuation on why MS is so adamant on giving away Windows 10 for free. They NEED to take back territory, but that doesn't mean they've lost the whole turf as you're implying, Juan. Please see down for the full reply on why mobile gaming is not a good indicator.

Yes Linux is the number 1 platform for gaming if we include mobile gaming. Juan is correct about that. Not only that but we can see handheld gaming devices lose share. When we talk about gaming we mean PC,Mac,Linux(on the desktop/laptop) vs consoles. And yes the do treat the PC as one platform and compare it to all the consoles in one group which is unfair.

I don't get mobile gaming with people(i know people here are better at least i hope). I have a nexus 7 and played several games and i wanted to cry they ruin all of them. I tried Simcity on android great graphics but the gameplay sucks i mean really badly nothing like simcity at all. Then i tried racing games and felt like it was made in 1 day, plus i tried the free sims game and man what a load of crap its like people are willing to play and buy anything.

Mobile gaming is here if we like it or not and imo its ruining gaming as we know it.

Yeah, mobile games are to stay. Of course.

[video="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQShIMS9R6I"][/video]

In any case. Once you factor in "quality", mobile games go down the drain. For all you want to say that mobile games (hence, Linux) has a big participation, you're trying to cover the sun with your finger tips. Gaming on PC/Console and gaming on Smartphones/Tablets are WORLDS apart. If you take into account the amount of money each platform makes, I'm very confident in saying that mobile gaming is peanuts. They offer the best ROI because they're regulated awfully at the moment, but wait until companies start getting sued by angry parents and dumb citizens spending more than they know on "click bait" games ("freemium"? there's a Southpark chapter about it).

I've had this same conversation with a friend that also sides to the idea that mobile games are eating the market, but to find a diamond you need to swim across a landfill of utter crap. It's not even realistic to expect mobile gaming will hurt sales on PC or Console. We can debate on portable Consoles though, but then again, the DS is saying otherwise; although Sony is having it rough with the Vita as I've heard/read.

Cheers!

PS: In case the video is not embedded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQShIMS9R6I
PS2: That game is supposed to be on all platforms, so fits "mobile"

 

[palladin9479]

Again you have no concrete evidence. We still have no proof that Microsoft copied anything and you still didn't mention how Amd claimed 12 wasn't happening how is that possible if they shared things with them?

Umm what ...

Dude we had that entire debate on here immediately after AMD started releasing Mantle as pseudo-beta. AMD talked a sh!t ton about it, we even had a long discussion about how the current DX11 render pipeline isn't easy to multithread. There was an entire sidebar where we discussed hoping that mantle would push Microsoft to adapt better scaling of the graphics pipeline and Kronos (or whomever is doing OpenGL now) to do the same. Then suddenly, months later Microsoft announces they are going to release DX12 and it'll have all these features that AMD's Mantle was built with. It's doesn't take a very big leap of logic to see how the creation of Mantle followed by the support of the industry precipitated the implementation of similar features into DirectX. Of course MS is going to use that as a lock in for their new OS, which isn't going to be free for the vast majority of their sales (OEMs, Governments and Business's).

People can have whatever opinions and personal beliefs they want, I don't care. What I do care about is blatantly biased revision of history in order to support a preexisting belief or opinion. If someone is going to hate or dislike something / someone, then do it for real reasons no need to make up stuff. There is no need to justify personal feelings by way of fictional inventions.

 

[jdwii]

Palladin bro we still have no actual professional proof if you knew what fallacious arguments were you would know that bro. I refuse to blame anyone anything without actual proof. I'm not saying Microsoft didn't steal info its not like they didn't do it before i'm just saying we have no proof they did do it this time, and the info doesn't add up when you add in the fact Amd claimed 12 wasn't happening anyways.

Its nothing more then a conspiracy theory that won't ever be proven one way or another.

We have to put are tin foil hates away and actually see things from a non bias point of view without valid evidence you have nothing. Don't be a troll or a noob please give actual proof.