News AMD Discloses 50 Security Holes Affecting EPYC CPUs, Radeon Drivers

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For once I'm happy the info came from the manufacturer. I'd like to see more of that.
 
For once I'm happy the info came from the manufacturer. I'd like to see more of that.
It's nice that they're transparent about it, but I'd rather have a third-party disclose it because forces accountability on the creator. For all I know, they've been sitting on these way longer than they should've.

A sticking point, unless something happened over the past 4 years, is AMD won't open up the PSP for a third party audit.
 

InvalidError

Titan
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It's nice that they're transparent about it, but I'd rather have a third-party disclose it because forces accountability on the creator. For all I know, they've been sitting on these way longer than they should've.
Even if the flaws were discovered by a 3rd-party, most 3rd-parties would follow "responsible disclosure" rules by telling AMD first and not go public until AMD has a fix, so you'd still end up with AMD sitting on bugs for a possibly very long time before either having a fix or declaring it wontfix.
 
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d0x360

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It's nice that they're transparent about it, but I'd rather have a third-party disclose it because forces accountability on the creator. For all I know, they've been sitting on these way longer than they should've.

A sticking point, unless something happened over the past 4 years, is AMD won't open up the PSP for a third party audit.

Wait... You would prefer 3rd party disclosure because it forces accountability? Ok I get that but...

AMD has never been known to hide vulnerabilities. Intel has, even nVidia has but I don't recall AMD doing it.

Does the PSP need a 3rd party audit? From what I understand people want these audits because they think the NSA has placed backdoors in PSP & (Intel)ME but it's entirely based on... nothing. It's more likely that they won't let a 3rd party do an audit because of potential abuse by people who work for said 3rd party.

I really doubt there is an NSA backdoor. Wouldn't you be able to monitor for such a thing via router logs? Plus I really doubt that they would need a backdoor. There are so many ways into a system that it doesn't make much sense for Intel and AMD to open themselves up to being sued into oblivion...
 

InvalidError

Titan
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It's more likely that they won't let a 3rd party do an audit because of potential abuse by people who work for said 3rd party.
Having the PSP code out in the wild also means more chances researchers will find side-channel attacks for it. Practically nothing is truly safe from getting broken into with sufficient low-level knowledge, access and time.
 

domih

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Nothing "new" there. Both INTEL and AMD regularly post advisories so that data centers, corporations and... end users can update their systems:

https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/124556/security/intel-amd-advisories.html

and/or:

https://www.securityweek.com/intel-amd-patch-high-severity-security-flaws

Professional security researchers always first contact manufacturers and software publishers to give them the time to fix issues and publish patches.

The security "researchers" who do not are irresponsible in giving zero-day exploits to the masses.

If you think this article describes catastrophic issues, check out this one instead:

https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/124510/hacking/chaosdb-flaw-technical-details.html

Other urban legend: MacOS is more secure. But:

https://www.securityweek.com/macos-zero-day-exploited-deliver-malware-users-hong-kong

Note that in all these articles, patches are already available. If you do not want your PC(s) to be low hanging fruit(s) for hackers, make sure you regularly apply patches and this goes a long way. Like in all industries, people optimize their work. In the IT breaking industry, hackers quickly switch to the next target when they stumbled on a host that is patched against the known zero-days of the past.
 
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InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
And there is the regular train of people here who have disabled updates because REASONS!
Best defense against unwanted random restarts and getting screwed over by a bad patch.

For the most part though, none of this stuff matters if you aren't regularly visiting shady web sites and won't save you from clicking through compromised sites. Browser updates are 100X more important to prevent auto-exploits.
 

domih

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Best defense against unwanted random restarts and getting screwed over by a bad patch.

For the most part though, none of this stuff matters if you aren't regularly visiting shady web sites and won't save you from clicking through compromised sites. Browser updates are 100X more important to prevent auto-exploits.

Hacking is no longer an artisanal activity or just teenagers (or old people stuck in post-adolescence) using kiddie scripts for their fifteen micro-seconds of fame. Penetration of hosts is an industry performed by workshops/teams payed for their work. Most of them don't even use the compromised hosts, instead they are selling the compromised hosts access to other sectors of the hacking industry.

These people do not care about your computer because it's yours. For them it's just a resource free of charge. No matter what your computer is, here are a few types of activity practiced on compromised hosts:
  • Use your host to attack other hosts so the hackers stay hidden,
  • Sell your host to a botnet,
  • Run crypto-mining free of charge usually at low level so that it looks "normal". They use your hardware and YOU pay the power bill,
  • Still any PI if stored on your host unencrypted and resell it. And they love people using common passwords and/or using the same password for multiple accounts. Password acquisition is automated against lists of thousands of already known in use passwords, then scripts will test signing in into the major web sites. They love it because they can sell the credentials for each web site as independent "products".
 

rtoaht

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3rd party researchers rarely test AMD CPUs. So most security holes in Epyc or Ryzen are unknown to researchers. I hope malicious organizations won’t find these holes before the researchers does.
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
Penetration of hosts is an industry performed by workshops/teams payed for their work. Most of them don't even use the compromised hosts, instead they are selling the compromised hosts access to other sectors of the hacking industry.
Before anybody can sell access to compromised hosts, the hosts have to be compromised first and the vast majority of security breaks start with user error that no amount of software patches can ever overcome.
 
Wait... You would prefer 3rd party disclosure because it forces accountability? Ok I get that but...

AMD has never been known to hide vulnerabilities. Intel has, even nVidia has but I don't recall AMD doing it.
How do you know? Again, for all I know, AMD could've sat on this issue for years after discovering it. Unless we have access to AMD's company emails and whatnot or someone breaks NDA and leaks such, we won't ever know.

Also you don't want to expose a vulnerability before a game plan is in place to either fix it or find a way to mitigate it from being useful. So it's in AMD's best interest to not disclose vulnerabilities right away. Also consider a lot of high-profile vulnerabilities tend to require a series of steps that don't make it practical for a script kiddie to exploit, so while the damage is high if they are exploited, the risk of someone actually finding that vulnerability is low. And because the risk of exploitation on a coincidence is low, it's likely that vulnerability won't be addressed until the "lower hanging fruit" is taken care of first.

Does the PSP need a 3rd party audit? From what I understand people want these audits because they think the NSA has placed backdoors in PSP & (Intel)ME but it's entirely based on... nothing. It's more likely that they won't let a 3rd party do an audit because of potential abuse by people who work for said 3rd party.
Yes, all security measures, be it computers or otherwise, needs someone else to take a look at it to actually verify that it's as secure as the first party says it is. Because again, for all we know, AMD discovered something years ago and is simply sitting on it.

As an example in something semi-releated, if you develop software, you should have other people testing your software. Chances are you haven't considered corner cases because you were fixated on a select series of use cases. When other people test your software, they have a fresh perspective and will inadvertantly try things you didn't think of.

I really doubt there is an NSA backdoor. Wouldn't you be able to monitor for such a thing via router logs? Plus I really doubt that they would need a backdoor. There are so many ways into a system that it doesn't make much sense for Intel and AMD to open themselves up to being sued into oblivion...
Having a third party audit isn't about checking for NSA backdoors or whatever. It's just checking to make sure the thing is as secure as first party claims it is. Any vulnerability is potentially a backdoor.

This is why open source software tends to be more secure than closed source software: a lot of eyes are looking at the code to make sure it works the way the author intended it to work. What you shouldn't keep secret is how the security works, because it doesn't really work. The only thing you need to keep secret is the actual secret.

Even if the flaws were discovered by a 3rd-party, most 3rd-parties would follow "responsible disclosure" rules by telling AMD first and not go public until AMD has a fix, so you'd still end up with AMD sitting on bugs for a possibly very long time before either having a fix or declaring it wontfix.
"Responsible disclosure" also has a time limit in order to force accountability on the creator of the thing, otherwise, what's the point? For example, Google's security team gives 90 days to address the problem before disclosing it.
 
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InvalidError

Titan
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"Responsible disclosure" also has a time limit in order to force accountability on the creator of the thing, otherwise, what's the point? For example, Google's security team gives 90 days to address the problem before disclosing it.
I'm sure Google and others have an exception mechanism for hardware bugs that may have a much longer turn-around time before a workable firmware or software work-around becomes available.
 
I'm sure Google and others have an exception mechanism for hardware bugs that may have a much longer turn-around time before a workable firmware or software work-around becomes available.
Taking from this: https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2015/02/feedback-and-data-driven-updates-to.html

Deadlines also acknowledge an uncomfortable fact that is alluded to by some of the above policies: the offensive security community invests considerably more into vulnerability research than the defensive community. Therefore, when we find a vulnerability in a high profile target, it is often already known by advanced and stealthy actors.

...
As always, we reserve the right to bring deadlines forwards or backwards based on extreme circumstances. We remain committed to treating all vendors strictly equally. Google expects to be held to the same standard; in fact, Project Zero has bugs in the pipeline for Google products (Chrome and Android) and these are subject to the same deadline policy.
So the take away is chances are if white hats know it, you have to assume black hats know it as well. The sooner you get this known, the sooner everyone else can understand what measures they need to take to mitigate its effectiveness.

But yes, they do acknowledge that there are special cases. However, I seriously doubt anything AMD fixed fell into that.
 

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