AMD Elaborates on PS4's Custom ''Jaguar'' APU

[tomfreak]

the problem with GDDR5 isnt the speed, but the latency. GDDR are knowned to have trade higher latency for bigger bandwidth.but the slow Jaguar core shouldnt be bottleneck by its latency so much. Now the question is where these 8 jaguar core performance gonna fall into. Somewhere around a core 2 quad 2.4-2.6GHz?

 

[rantoc]

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Titan is also $1000, more than twice as expensive as the whole console, and would be put in a system with something like another $600-800 of components, if not even more expensive. When you can't build a PC with comparable performance to the console for a similar price, the console has a win over the PC.[/citation]

I agree in the short term, however after buying 20-30 titles to that console you could instead have had a superior grade PC with the same bought titles for the same money because EACH title that is bought to the console have a price premium that goes to the maker of the console. Simply put -> The more titles bought the more is paid for the console much like tax that you never see, with PC you get to keep that extra money that can be reinvested in for instance more titles/better hardware ect. With the PC there is also the option of hardware choice/upgrades and it already have a huge software library to boot.

The human race is gifted with the power of choice, for me that choice is easy - I pay a little more up front for a PC rather than waste money on "console-taxes" in the long run and the consoles have no choice in hardware for the next 6-7 years. I like gaming and have well over 300 titles on steam (with console title "taxes" alone that would be my entire next pc!). Its up to each to reach his/hers conclusion and neither is wrong from different perspectives!

 

[shafe88]

[citation][nom]rantoc[/nom]I agree in the short term, however after buying 20-30 titles to that console you could instead have had a superior grade PC with the same bought titles for the same money because EACH title that is bought to the console have a price premium that goes to the maker of the console. Simply put -> The more titles bought the more is paid for the console much like tax that you never see, with PC you get to keep that extra money that can be reinvested in for instance more titles/better hardware ect. With the PC there is also the option of hardware choice/upgrades and it already have a huge software library to boot.The human race is gifted with the power of choice, for me that choice is easy - I pay a little more up front for a PC rather than be waste money on "console-taxes" and no choice in hardware especially since I like gaming and have over 300 titles on steam (with console title "taxes" alone that would be my entire next pc!). Its up to each to reach his/hers conclusion and neither is wrong from different perspectives![/citation]The problem is not all console titles are available PC the same way their are PC titles not available for console.

 

[fuzznarf]

[citation][nom]rantoc[/nom]Or the Titans GTX 4.5 gflops (2,5 times faster!) both are smoking new and already the PC part is 2,5 times faster. How will it look 6-7 years from now when the new PS5 come? Geez![/citation]
did you read the review for Titan($1000)? its on par with the 690($950) or SLI 7970s($700). And the actual compute performance is still worse than a 7970($350).

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]fuzznarf[/nom]did you read the review for Titan($1000)? its on par with the 690($950) or SLI 7970s($700). And the actual compute performance is still worse than a 7970($350).[/citation]

Titan review puts it as only about 35% faster on average than the GTX 680. It's nowhere near a GTX 690 and Radeon 707 Crossfire in most situations.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]rantoc[/nom]I agree in the short term, however after buying 20-30 titles to that console you could instead have had a superior grade PC with the same bought titles for the same money because EACH title that is bought to the console have a price premium that goes to the maker of the console. Simply put -> The more titles bought the more is paid for the console much like tax that you never see, with PC you get to keep that extra money that can be reinvested in for instance more titles/better hardware ect. With the PC there is also the option of hardware choice/upgrades and it already have a huge software library to boot.The human race is gifted with the power of choice, for me that choice is easy - I pay a little more up front for a PC rather than waste money on "console-taxes" in the long run and the consoles have no choice in hardware for the next 6-7 years. I like gaming and have well over 300 titles on steam (with console title "taxes" alone that would be my entire next pc!). Its up to each to reach his/hers conclusion and neither is wrong from different perspectives![/citation]

The problem with that is you still can't use Titan as an example. It is too expensive to make sense for that sort of example.

 

[therabiddeer]

[citation][nom]rantoc[/nom]Or the Titans GTX 4.5 gflops (2,5 times faster!) both are smoking new and already the PC part is 2,5 times faster. How will it look 6-7 years from now when the new PS5 come? Geez![/citation]
PC games also have to deal with multiple hardware environments, bloated OS, background programs, compatibility issues and various other things which pull game performance down when compared to a console.

 

[game junky]

I would guess that means an Intel/Nvidia combo for the new Xbox - AMD isn't lucky enough to get two killer contracts on the next generation of consoles. I know the initial reports were linking bulldozer procs to current Durango kits but I guess we'll see what we'll see.

In all sincerity, I was expecting more from Sony at that proposed price point. I remember how much of a step up graphics were from the Super Nintendo to the N64 - I want to see that kind of a leap again. I'm talking Genesis to Saturn people - get working, my friends.

Oh well, my PS3 is just a Bluray player right now anyway so I think I might skip this one.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]game junky[/nom]I would guess that means an Intel/Nvidia combo for the new Xbox - AMD isn't lucky enough to get two killer contracts on the next generation of consoles. I know the initial reports were linking bulldozer procs to current Durango kits but I guess we'll see what we'll see.In all sincerity, I was expecting more from Sony at that proposed price point. I remember how much of a step up graphics were from the Super Nintendo to the N64 - I want to see that kind of a leap again. I'm talking Genesis to Saturn people - get working, my friends.Oh well, my PS3 is just a Bluray player right now anyway so I think I might skip this one.[/citation]

Maybe you're right, but we've already been told that AMD is in all three of the current consoles for graphics, so I doubt it.

 

[bigpinkdragon286]

OT: What's with all the down votes for everybody, all of a sudden? Someone in a bad mood? 🙂
[citation][nom]rantoc[/nom]I agree in the short term, however after buying 20-30 titles to that console you could instead have had a superior grade PC with the same bought titles for the same money because EACH title that is bought to the console have a price premium that goes to the maker of the console.[/citation]
I remember the cost advantage you're talking about very well, but the last few years I've seen PC releases retail at the same price point as console releases. Now that EA is pushing Origin, prices don't even come down anymore for a lot of titles. I've given up buying games upon release due to the price hikes, wait for Steam sales, and for titles to lose there exclusivity to the Origin service, such as Crysis 2.

 

[bigpinkdragon286]

[citation][nom]therabiddeer[/nom]PC games also have to deal with multiple hardware environments, bloated OS, background programs, compatibility issues and various other things which pull game performance down when compared to a console.[/citation]
I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement. Well written PC games should only need deal with the exposed DirectX APIs and perhaps the file system, which are both well established and supported, making them quite practical to code for. Plus, if you know much about the underpinnings of both Windows 7 and 8, they are actually quite optimized and streamlined operating systems.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]bigpinkdragon286[/nom]I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement. Well written PC games should only need deal with the exposed DirectX APIs and perhaps the file system, which are both well established and supported, making them quite practical to code for. Plus, if you know much about the underpinnings of both Windows 7 and 8, they are actually quite optimized and streamlined operating systems.[/citation]

They are extremely bloated. Most of that bloat just hogs RAM rather than hardware performance, but that doesn't change the fact that they have a lot of it.

Also, PC games do have to deal with drivers and compatibility issues too. The multiple hardware environments below the DX APIs are a big part of what hurts the optimization on PCs too. The games don't directly deal with it, but the performance impact is noticed. Background programs shouldn't be an issue unless you try to make it one and the OS shouldn't be a big issue for performance, I'll give that much, but that's it.

 

[downhill911]

Regarding Tom's copy paste fails and bad proofreading.
As much as it is annoying, I am not so surprised since I have the same problem.
Man, I totally avoid typing and I prefer to talk to people instead.
My mum keep complain that I never email her but I keep telling her that I have problems with typing, but I call her quite often,so ..what's the biggie.lol

For some reason I can not synchronize my thoughts with typing and somehow get ahead and then have to go back to check my typing and then I forget what i was going to say.

 

[aoneone]

1.84 Teraflops?

Does anyone know if the ps4 will outshine the i7 3770k + gtx 670?
Ok I'll make it simpler, how many teraflops is the gtx 670? Simple question I NEED TO KNOW!!! thx! ^_^

 

[rantoc]

[citation][nom]fuzznarf[/nom]did you read the review for Titan($1000)? its on par with the 690($950) or SLI 7970s($700). And the actual compute performance is still worse than a 7970($350).[/citation]

There are benefits of having a single powerful gpu solution to multiple weaker gpu solutions, have quite the experience with everything from single cards to quad cards from both camps. With one powerful gpu its easy to get 80-95% more performance by poppig in another baby (depending on title) and tri-sli ect don't scale as well as two card does and this is especially true with quad solutions.. There is also the stuttering ect. I won't buy the titan because of its price (currently got a rig with 2x 680 and one with 2x 7970's and both does very well).

 

[rantoc]

[citation][nom]therabiddeer[/nom]PC games also have to deal with multiple hardware environments, bloated OS, background programs, compatibility issues and various other things which pull game performance down when compared to a console.[/citation]

Yeah HAL uses less than 10% of the performance along with the os ect if you know how to code. I'm sure its horrific when you have a 2x hardware capable machine and only end up having 1.8x as powerfull!

 

[bigpinkdragon286]

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]They are extremely bloated. Most of that bloat just hogs RAM rather than hardware performance, but that doesn't change the fact that they have a lot of it.[/citation]
Bloat? In what respect? I think what you are calling bloat, I would look at as quite a bit of functionality and features, unless you are implying the underlying code is very sloppy and poorly optimized. Try getting the same functionality and ease of use from a smaller operating system. It's hardly relevant to gaming though, as software interfaces with only the necessary portions of the OS. Sometimes I think people are unappreciative of how much effort goes into an operating system. I suggest that if you have unused services or programs that are hogging your RAM, turn them off. As for the rest of the memory usage, I agree with Microsoft. What else were you going to do with it? If you're sitting there looking at a memory map and grumbling, you're likely not doing a whole lot of interactively productive work, or even gaming. Would you rather spend the extra time to load and unload memory contents so your RAM can be as empty and unallocated as possible all of the time? RAM prices are at an all time low. If you don't have enough, is that really Windows fault?

 

[dark_lord69]

[citation][nom]esrever[/nom]the bandwidth is 176GB/s. Toms can't copy/paste properly, nor can it seem to proof read.[/citation]
ok, Well good to know...
Just wanted to point out that the bandwidth is actually a bit higher than the 7850 and the 7870 graphics cards. I am actually rather happy about the video performance expected from this system. I currently use a factory OC 7850 that I just bought and I'm very happy with it! I can max out the graphics on all the games I've played on it.

[citation][nom]leon2006[/nom]Its internal gpu so its clear to be less capable compare to dedicated gpu[/citation]
System memory has never been fast enough for an "Internal GPU" or APU to be decent. This will not be an issue on the PS3 as the system and video share memory that runs at a speed that is faster than the memory on a 7870 video card. Also, this new APU (CPU/GPU) is fast enough (1.8 TF) that it out performs a 7850 (1.7 TF). Contrary to your comment, I actually expect the PlayStation's APU to out preform my dedicated video card.

 

[dark_lord69]

[citation][nom]aoneone[/nom]1.84 Teraflops?Does anyone know if the ps4 will outshine the i7 3770k + gtx 670? Ok I'll make it simpler, how many teraflops is the gtx 670? Simple question I NEED TO KNOW!!! thx! ^_^[/citation]
2.46 Teraflops

 

[master9716]

Its 170GB of bandwith , Also the 2 teraflop number is just from the cpu im guessing - Based on the fact that it can run Unreal 4 engine wich apperantly a pair of 7970s and gtx 680s had trouble with .

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]master9716[/nom]Its 170GB of bandwith , Also the 2 teraflop number is just from the cpu im guessing - Based on the fact that it can run Unreal 4 engine wich apperantly a pair of 7970s and gtx 680s had trouble with .[/citation]

Sorry, but you're guessing wrong. That 2TFLOPs numbers is either just from the GPU or almost purely the GPU.

 

[bigpinkdragon286]

[citation][nom]aoneone[/nom]1.84 Teraflops?Does anyone know if the ps4 will outshine the i7 3770k + gtx 670? Ok I'll make it simpler, how many teraflops is the gtx 670? Simple question I NEED TO KNOW!!! thx! ^_^[/citation]
Looks to be about 2.5 after you round it.

 

[rantoc]

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]The problem with that is you still can't use Titan as an example. It is too expensive to make sense for that sort of example.[/citation]

Depends on market, a ps3 game is usually 150 sek more expencive than th PC version. Many gamers buy 20 titles a year, that's 3000 sek a year. A titan cost 9000 and even at that insane price I would get two (!) of them for free in the current consoles lifespan! Yeah I know its insane but it adds up...

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]bigpinkdragon286[/nom]Bloat? In what respect? I think what you are calling bloat, I would look at as quite a bit of functionality and features, unless you are implying the underlying code is very sloppy and poorly optimized. Try getting the same functionality and ease of use from a smaller operating system. It's hardly relevant to gaming though, as software interfaces with only the necessary portions of the OS. Sometimes I think people are unappreciative of how much effort goes into an operating system. I suggest that if you have unused services or programs that are hogging your RAM, turn them off. As for the rest of the memory usage, I agree with Microsoft. What else were you going to do with it? If you're sitting there looking at a memory map and grumbling, you're likely not doing a whole lot of interactively productive work, or even gaming. Would you rather spend the extra time to load and unload memory contents so your RAM can be as empty and unallocated as possible all of the time? RAM prices are at an all time low. If you don't have enough, is that really Windows fault?[/citation]

No, I am not calling features bloat. I am saying that the code is sloppy.

It's not too difficult to get the same functionality and ease of use from a far lighter operating system. For example, some smart hackers skewed Windows 7 down to using less memory than XP without losing any functionality except for the windows hardware rating, a flawed tool anyway. That Windows 8, despite having more features and more parts to its UI, is still significantly more efficient than 7 and the same is true about 7, so we don't even need hackers to see how bloated these systems are in RAM hogging.

Even with everything other than the core operating system running, it's still wasting a lot of memory. I am not personally running out of memory. I simply said that it uses much more than it should and that is correct. That is MS's fault and no one else's.

Prices of RAM should not dictate how bloated an operating system is just because you can afford to buy enough RAM to counteract the bloat.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]rantoc[/nom]Depends on market, a ps3 game is usually 150 sek more expencive than th PC version. Many gamers buy 20 titles a year, that's 3000 sek a year. A titan cost 9000 and even at that insane price I would get two (!) of them for free in the current consoles lifespan! Yeah I know its insane but it adds up...[/citation]

Most gamers do not buy 20 titles a year, at least not 20 full-priced titles, regardless of their platform. That is extremely abnormal.

Furthermore, Titan is not a whole gaming system. You'd need to spend almost as much as you do on Titan also on other hardware and software/operating system to get a full system, at a minimum likely for such a card. It's also very unlikely that you won't upgrade the PC within the console's life span, incurring significantly further cost. Again, Titan is too expensive for your example.