AMD Launches New Flagship APU With Wraith Cooler

[RedJaron]

And no one ever does a CPU upgrade that is an interesting point considering all the post from people asking what CPU they can upgrade their systems too I see on THG all the time.

If this is your evidence that a lot of people actually replace their CPU ( and just their CPU ), you might want to rethink it. Just because someone posts a thread here about it doesn't mean they actually do it. Many walk away saying they'll think about it after being told there's nothing to do short a full platform upgrade. Next subtract those who opt for an entire system rebuild (since the instant they replace a mboard, they're no longer upgrading their CPU alone ).

My experience has been a lot of people ask about their CPU ( since that's a term many tech non-savvy people know ) when their computer feels slow. A lot of threads also come from people who inherit old systems one way or other and want to know how to pep them up. The answer more often than not is a complete system overhaul since they got an under-powered system from a big box store.

Same, or at least similar, goes for the people who bought APUs for a serious gaming system. Blame marketing and big box sales people who push them on consumers who don't know any better. No writer here has ever recommended an APU alone for any kind of gaming other than casual stuff with playable ( but not great ) framerates. As you said, the consumer was misinformed. So why blame the mboard socket's limitations?

I think planned CPU upgrades are not worth it 99% of the time. The one exception I can think of right now is someone absolutely, positively needs a computer right now and doesn't have the money for the CPU they want. So they get something to limp along for a couple months until they can afford what they wanted in the first place. Buy a new CPU, turn around and sell a lightly used CPU to recoup some of the cost, and enjoy a computer that's current in the tech world.

However, the vast majority of people aren't in that situation. If you want a particular CPU to start with, bite the bullet and get it at the outset. Quite often the limping period stretches on to 12, 18 months or longer. Suddenly they want an upgrade but now the next generation is out ( maybe even two gens ahead ). It's the same as people planning an SLI/CFX upgrade "later." Then later comes and the cost of getting a second older GPU is not that much less than getting a single newer card. So do you double down your older, slower, less efficient tech, or do you jump to the newer cards out there? Sadly the process can repeat again with someone saying, "THIS time I'm going to get that second card sooner."

 

[littleleo]

And no one ever does a CPU upgrade that is an interesting point considering all the post from people asking what CPU they can upgrade their systems too I see on THG all the time.

If this is your evidence that a lot of people actually replace their CPU ( and just their CPU ), you might want to rethink it. Just because someone posts a thread here about it doesn't mean they actually do it. Many walk away saying they'll think about it after being told there's nothing to do short a full platform upgrade. Next subtract those who opt for an entire system rebuild (since the instant they replace a mboard, they're no longer upgrading their CPU alone ).

My experience has been a lot of people ask about their CPU ( since that's a term many tech non-savvy people know ) when their computer feels slow. A lot of threads also come from people who inherit old systems one way or other and want to know how to pep them up. The answer more often than not is a complete system overhaul since they got an under-powered system from a big box store.

Same, or at least similar, goes for the people who bought APUs for a serious gaming system. Blame marketing and big box sales people who push them on consumers who don't know any better. No writer here has ever recommended an APU alone for any kind of gaming other than casual stuff with playable ( but not great ) framerates. As you said, the consumer was misinformed. So why blame the mboard socket's limitations?

I think planned CPU upgrades are not worth it 99% of the time. The one exception I can think of right now is someone absolutely, positively needs a computer right now and doesn't have the money for the CPU they want. So they get something to limp along for a couple months until they can afford what they wanted in the first place. Buy a new CPU, turn around and sell a lightly used CPU to recoup some of the cost, and enjoy a computer that's current in the tech world.

However, the vast majority of people aren't in that situation. If you want a particular CPU to start with, bite the bullet and get it at the outset. Quite often the limping period stretches on to 12, 18 months or longer. Suddenly they want an upgrade but now the next generation is out ( maybe even two gens ahead ). It's the same as people planning an SLI/CFX upgrade "later." Then later comes and the cost of getting a second older GPU is not that much less than getting a single newer card. So do you double down your older, slower, less efficient tech, or do you jump to the newer cards out there? Sadly the process can repeat again with someone saying, "THIS time I'm going to get that second card sooner."

I didn't know I had to present evidence to back up my point of view. So Red what is exactly are you arguing about? You like the other moderator IINUY don't feel people ever do CPU upgrades? Sorry they do I agree it isn't as common as other upgrades but they do happen from time to time. And no I don't base it solely on post on THG, believe it or not there is a whole world out there outside of Tom's. Yes many make plans to do many things and you know what life happens and we have to change our plans. It happens to everyone you never know what life will throw your way. And many of the most tech savvy people I know call processors CPUs it's okay.

Many have recommended APUs for Gaming system including some moderators on Tom's so it isn't just big box stores misinforming the public. I'm glad you agree that APUs are not great for gaming rigs except for low end to lower mid ranged games. True for some people that fits what they play so for them it is a fine choice. As long as they know the little to no upgrade options that build has up front.

True some people inherit old computer systems and want to jazz them up so they can do more. Yes many of those will ask about a CPU and Ram upgrades. Yes, sometimes many will not do so, I've recommend to people that have asked to consider adding a SSD to zip it up for them, but usually I tell them it's better to start saving for a new build instead of fixing the old system. The problem of upgrading and old system is knowing what the limitations of the motherboard is. Many times getting the information on the motherboard and the BIOS version it has and what you can upgrade it to is not possible. I had a customer trying to fix an older brand system the other day but it was so old (8 years) the manufacturer didn't even have spec sheets for it any more. But some still try to do because it fits into their budget and what they want to do.

To the tangent rant about dual video cards setups. I'm not a big fan of those I usually feel it is better to go with a better single VGA card then dual setups. Too many issues with crossfire not supporting some games, and driver issues with both formats. So I'm not one to push dual GPU rigs thou I recently did a build with multiple Titan X cards and it was sweet.

When it comes to choosing to upgrade the old or saving for the new I'm always for buying the newest version. When I upgrade my personal system since it isn't something I do regularly I look at the newest platform. However not all are able to save enough to do so or have the time to wait so you have to be able to offer the best choices and let the customer choose. In the end it is their decision it is always best to give them the best information you can so they can make an informed decision.

Personally I really enjoy researching the new hardware that is what led me to Tom's many many years ago. It was one of the 1st site I found that reviewed and compared hardware. Now I have many sites so I can have more than one opinion and I can read multiple reviews about a product. Beside studying on line I also get regular training on hardware from many of the leading manufacturers which I really enjoy. I also really enjoy the tech shows and try to attend them when I can. I'm going to one on Thursday and I'm really looking forward to it. My customers know this about me and I spend a lot of time trading information with them. Thought I got to learn to be less wordy in my responses, lol.

 

[RedJaron]

I didn't know I had to present evidence to back up my point of view.

Strictly speaking, no, you don't HAVE to. You're perfectly able to spout off any opinion you may have without anything backing it up ( within the Terms of Service here, of course ). However it helps others take you more seriously, particularly in a debate with contrary ideas, if you offer supporting points, evidence, and arguments for your PoV. Otherwise it's a whole lot of "He said / She said" going on and we don't need a kindergarten playground of "I know you are, but what am I?" on the forums.

But there's also a line between opinion to statement, one which you've crossed. Once you claim that something is fact, you open yourself up to questions about proving it. Putting forth unsubstantiated arguments in any kind of civil discourse and debate is typically considered poor form. And if you're not willing to back them up when challenged, or think they don't merit proper support, why should anyone else believe you?

And next time, save the faux outrage.

So Red what is exactly are you arguing about?

I'm arguing that people complaining about a motherboard's lack of "upgrade path" ( of which you are one ) are blowing a very rare situation completely out of proportion. Making mountains out of mole hills, as the saying goes.

You like the other moderator IINUY don't feel people ever do CPU upgrades?

Neither I nor he ever made such a claim, nor even hinted at that, so I would ask you to stop spreading falsehoods

Sorry they do

Again, I never said otherwise. I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue this point with me.

I agree it isn't as common as other upgrades but they do happen from time to time.

If it's so uncommon then why make such a big deal about it?

And no I don't base it solely on post on THG,

Well you haven't provided much else, and I'm not going to make assumptions about you based on things you haven't said or written.

believe it or not there is a whole world out there outside of Tom's.

Why do you feel the need to belittle me? Why the thinly veiled insult that you think I'm cloistered away somewhere and don't know anything about reality and the world at large?

Yes many make plans to do many things and you know what life happens and we have to change our plans. It happens to everyone you never know what life will throw your way.

How is this relevant to the discussion at hand?

And many of the most tech savvy people I know call processors CPUs it's okay.

Well sure it's okay. CPU stands for Central Processing Unit, so why would that be incorrect? More importantly, when did I argue otherwise? When talking about an entire computer system ( including displays, keyboards, mice, and other peripherals ), it's not incorrect to refer to the main box as the central processing unit since the components inside are the ones doing all the processing from the I/O devices. So again I ask, "Why bring this up?"

Many have recommended APUs for Gaming system including some moderators on Tom's so it isn't just big box stores misinforming the public.

Cite them, please.

 

[littleleo]

Strictly speaking, no, you don't HAVE to. You're perfectly able to spout off any opinion you may have without anything backing it up ( within the Terms of Service here, of course ). However it helps others take you more seriously, particularly in a debate with contrary ideas, if you offer supporting points, evidence, and arguments for your PoV. Otherwise it's a whole lot of "He said / She said" going on and we don't need a kindergarten playground of "I know you are, but what am I?" on the forums.

But there's also a line between opinion to statement, one which you've crossed. Once you claim that something is fact, you open yourself up to questions about proving it. Putting forth unsubstantiated arguments in any kind of civil discourse and debate is typically considered poor form. And if you're not willing to back them up when challenged, or think they don't merit proper support, why should anyone else believe you?

And next time, save the faux outrage.

So Red what unsubstantiated arguments are you referring to? And any faux outrage seems to be coming from your side of the keyboard. I enjoy discussing computer parts and I'm not offended by your or IIn opinions.

Neither I nor he ever made such a claim, nor even hinted at that, so I would ask you to stop spreading falsehoods

The majority of systems will never have a CPU upgrade even if there is an upgrade path available. Typically because the cost of upgrading out weighs the reward, unless you have an extremely low-end CPU to begin with. There is no legitimate reason short of a CPU failure that someone that owns an FM2+ Athlon X4 CPU or A10 APU will ever need to upgrade it.

It seems I and IIn had a different opinion on this issue.

Again, I never said otherwise. I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue this point with me.

Now Red I thought we discussing points of view about these maters not arguing.

I agree it isn't as common as other upgrades but they do happen from time to time.

If it's so uncommon then why make such a big deal about it?

I didn't think I was making a big deal about it but giving a slight nod in agreement with IIn. The reason there aren't many CPU upgrades for APU is there really isn't much you can upgrade too.

And no I don't base it solely on post on THG,Well you haven't provided much else, and I'm not going to make assumptions about you based on things you haven't said or written.

Actually what I meant was my opinion was not solely bases on what I've read on THG, but my real life experiences. It wasn't meant as an comment about you or IIn, I think you've had to much caffeine (that was a joke by the way).

believe it or not there is a whole world out there outside of Tom's.

Why do you feel the need to belittle me? Why the thinly veiled insult that you think I'm cloistered away somewhere and don't know anything about reality and the world at large?

Again Red I was talking about what I've have learned and experienced and not you. How would I now what you have learned or experienced in your life, please stop looking for insults when they don't exist.

Yes many make plans to do many things and you know what life happens and we have to change our plans. It happens to everyone you never know what life will throw your way.

How is this relevant to the discussion at hand?

Well you had the 1-2 paragraph rant which seemed to be saying the same thing I just summed it up. You know the whole "bite the bullet" part of your rant.

And many of the most tech savvy people I know call processors CPUs it's okay.

Well sure it's okay. CPU stands for Central Processing Unit, so why would that be incorrect? More importantly, when did I argue otherwise? When talking about an entire computer system ( including displays, keyboards, mice, and other peripherals ), it's not incorrect to refer to the main box as the central processing unit since the components inside are the ones doing all the processing from the I/O devices. So again I ask, "Why bring this up?"

My experience has been a lot of people ask about their CPU ( since that's a term many tech non-savvy people know ) when their computer feels slow.

Just saying many tech savy people call the processors CPUs too.

Many have recommended APUs for Gaming system including some moderators on Tom's so it isn't just big box stores misinforming the public.

Cite them, please.

I'm not going to take the time to go through all the post plus I don't think that is necessary. Plus it could cause way more issues then it would be worth to prove a point. Being a moderator I sure you have lots of tools and access so you can check on your own I don't think you need my help. But I tell you what when I see those post from now on I'll message you so you can see for yourself, is that cool?

You know Red the tech show tomorrow will have an open bar, its going to be fun I hope you and some of the THG will be there, but if you guys don't make it I'll have a Heine for you, okay maybe two ;^D

 

[IInuyasha74]

My argument never was that people don't do CPU upgrades. That happens. Anyone that is a tech enthusiast has probably done it several times over the years. My argument is that building a PC with plans to upgrade it in the future (specifically the CPU) is a horrible idea. The one scenario RedJaron mentioned above about needing a PC right now and not having the cash for the CPU they want is a realistic scenario that warrants building with plans for future upgrades, but that is only if they user has no choice but to get a system now and can't wait. Similarly I've occasionally recommended uses on a budget to build a system without a GPU and add one later, add extra storage later, a better cooler and stuff like that, but you need be really careful in those situations too. The last thing you want is to buy a GPU later and find out now you need a PSU upgrade to handle it, or you buy more storage drives and find out you need a motherboard with more SATA ports. Long story short, when you build with plans to upgrade in the future, you create the chance for numerous problems to creep into your build that can ultimately cost you significantly more money.

It is true people still end up doing this, but it unquestionably costs more than just buying the system the someone needs/wants from the beginning. You might find lots of users that have done this on sites like Tom's Hardware, but this is a tech enthusiast site. If someone comes to this site for help changing a CPU and succeeds in doing it, then they already have more experience working with computer hardware than the vast majority of the people in the world. So using what users on this site or any other tech site do when it comes to CPU upgrades will give you selection bias and give the appearance that CPU upgrades are more common than they really are. For everyone PC that gets a CPU upgrade, there are probably at least a million other computers that don't because the cost of doing so and the end results are rarely worth it. This is true regardless if the CPU upgrade is planned or the system is an old one that gets an unplanned upgrade later.

 

[littleleo]

My argument never was that people don't do CPU upgrades. That happens. Anyone that is a tech enthusiast has probably done it several times over the years. My argument is that building a PC with plans to upgrade it in the future (specifically the CPU) is a horrible idea. The one scenario RedJaron mentioned above about needing a PC right now and not having the cash for the CPU they want is a realistic scenario that warrants building with plans for future upgrades, but that is only if they user has no choice but to get a system now and can't wait. Similarly I've occasionally recommended uses on a budget to build a system without a GPU and add one later, add extra storage later, a better cooler and stuff like that, but you need be really careful in those situations too. The last thing you want is to buy a GPU later and find out now you need a PSU upgrade to handle it, or you buy more storage drives and find out you need a motherboard with more SATA ports. Long story short, when you build with plans to upgrade in the future, you create the chance for numerous problems to creep into your build that can ultimately cost you significantly more money..

There is a difference in buying a computer with the plan to upgrade the CPU later and buying a computer that gives you lots of options for upgrades in the future. I don't recommend people buy a computer with an inferior CPU with a plan to upgrade to a better one later, but some people do it thou it is very rare.

It is true people still end up doing this, but it unquestionably costs more than just buying the system the someone needs/wants from the beginning. You might find lots of users that have done this on sites like Tom's Hardware, but this is a tech enthusiast site. If someone comes to this site for help changing a CPU and succeeds in doing it, then they already have more experience working with computer hardware than the vast majority of the people in the world. So using what users on this site or any other tech site do when it comes to CPU upgrades will give you selection bias and give the appearance that CPU upgrades are more common than they really are. For everyone PC that gets a CPU upgrade, there are probably at least a million other computers that don't because the cost of doing so and the end results are rarely worth it. This is true regardless if the CPU upgrade is planned or the system is an old one that gets an unplanned upgrade later.

I hope your right about that, though some people state they have never bought computer parts before and their 1st build is a 2011 v3 system (that just makes me wonder). One thing this business has taught me is never underestimate some of the crazy things people try or want to do.

 

[RedJaron]

Leo, while I could do another point-by-point deconstruction of your post, chances seem high you're likely to just ignore parts with arbitrary editing, twist words, and exaggerate numbers yet again to make yourself seem right at any cost. Then you'll likely pull the crybully act and play the victim, pretending the moderation staff is coming down on you for no reason. For whatever reason you're doing it, it is neither constructive to this conversation nor beneficial to the forum as a whole.

This, in plain and simple terms, is what happened. You said FM2 boards were a bad choice for gaming computers due to their lack of upgrade path. Michael and I countered by saying CPUs are so rarely upgraded on their own that basing an entire socket recommendation solely or primarily on such a corner case was a bad idea. You then claimed we said that no one ever upgrades their CPU alone, which is completely false, and spiraled out from there.

Through it all, you still haven't bothered to actually show proof of any of your claims when asked. Yes, I am a moderator. Yes, I do have some extra powers and privileges on the forums. No, I'm not going to use them or my time in an effort to prove your arguments for you. The burden of proof is on the one that makes a claim. Pushing that off onto someone else is a lazy and ineffective method of discussion and one that does not benefit any involved. Many ignorant people can talk the talk if they know a few buzzwords. True experts walk the walk. If you consider yourself an expert and want others to take you seriously, I suggest you give them reason to think so.

Bottom line, we like having many different voices in threads. Echo chambers where everyone parrots each other are not productive. However, misrepresenting what others say is flat out dishonest. If you can't disagree with another's post respectfully, if you resort to lying about them or what they've said, I would ask you to simply not reply to it at all. If you don't think it's worth your time to provide support for your arguments, I think you'll find your posts often dismissed and ignored.

And now, if there's no more distraction, back to the discussion of AMD's new coolers.

 

[littleleo]

Leo, while I could do another point-by-point deconstruction of your post, chances seem high you're likely to just ignore parts with arbitrary editing, twist words, and exaggerate numbers yet again to make yourself seem right at any cost. Then you'll likely pull the crybully act and play the victim, pretending the moderation staff is coming down on you for no reason. For whatever reason you're doing it, it is neither constructive to this conversation nor beneficial to the forum as a whole.

This, in plain and simple terms, is what happened. You said FM2 boards were a bad choice for gaming computers due to their lack of upgrade path. Michael and I countered by saying CPUs are so rarely upgraded on their own that basing an entire socket recommendation solely or primarily on such a corner case was a bad idea. You then claimed we said that no one ever upgrades their CPU alone, which is completely false, and spiraled out from there.

Through it all, you still haven't bothered to actually show proof of any of your claims when asked. Yes, I am a moderator. Yes, I do have some extra powers and privileges on the forums. No, I'm not going to use them or my time in an effort to prove your arguments for you. The burden of proof is on the one that makes a claim. Pushing that off onto someone else is a lazy and ineffective method of discussion and one that does not benefit any involved. Many ignorant people can talk the talk if they know a few buzzwords. True experts walk the walk. If you consider yourself an expert and want others to take you seriously, I suggest you give them reason to think so.

Bottom line, we like having many different voices in threads. Echo chambers where everyone parrots each other are not productive. However, misrepresenting what others say is flat out dishonest. If you can't disagree with another's post respectfully, if you resort to lying about them or what they've said, I would ask you to simply not reply to it at all. If you don't think it's worth your time to provide support for your arguments, I think you'll find your posts often dismissed and ignored.

And now, if there's no more distraction, back to the discussion of AMD's new coolers.

You know Red it appears we are going to disagree on some of the points on this thread. I don't think I've been disrespectful to anyone or gone out of my way to insult anyone. Perhaps you have more experience then me with computer hardware and perhaps you don't. I don't know anything about you except what you write. I don't think I pulled a "crybully act" by giving my point of view, and for sticking up for my point of view. I don't recall saying you guys were ganging up on me, and I don't feel intimidated by you or anyone on THG. I'm not worried about proving my cred to you. I post my opinion on some threats and try to help others on other threads. Whether anyone takes me seriously or not doesn't cost me one minute of concern. If I'm able to help that is great, if my opinion is ignored that is okay too.

My original comment was about instead of getting a FM2+, the option of waiting for the new ZEN platform may be a better option if the guy can wait. In the past what made AMD so popular was how compatible the AM sockets were with the new models when they came out. The new ZEN platform seems to offer more power & flexibility with it being compatible with the FX & APU CPUs. That may give the user more options then what he would have with the FM2+ socket. He could go with an APU or a FX CPU on the same AM4 platform. Plus in the future more options may come out for the AM4 where the FM2+ will not get much more. I still feel this is a good and valid option. Perhaps the chance of upgrading the CPU in the future is small. But the performance of the ZEN may be a significant improvement worth waiting for regardless. And of course the guy has the option if he needs it to upgrade. It is up to the guy spending the money of course.

Hopefully I did a better job explaining my point of view and no one feels insulted or slighted.

 

[g-unit1111]

There is a difference in buying a computer with the plan to upgrade the CPU later and buying a computer that gives you lots of options for upgrades in the future. I don't recommend people buy a computer with an inferior CPU with a plan to upgrade to a better one later, but some people do it thou it is very rare.

Yeah that's just about the worst thing one can do with a new build is buy with the intention of upgrading. Because you will never be satisfied with what you have and you'll wind up spending 2 or even 3 times as much than if you had initially planned for the budget you really wanted. Believe me I've been there and won't make that mistake ever again.

I hope your right about that, though some people state they have never bought computer parts before and their 1st build is a 2011 v3 system (that just makes me wonder). One thing this business has taught me is never underestimate some of the crazy things people try or want to do.

I don't see anything wrong with that, frankly. My first DIY rig was an Intel X58 system and I didn't know a single thing about overclocking or even adding an aftermarket cooler. Once you get past the first build you evolve and try new things with your next.

 

[littleleo]

There is a difference in buying a computer with the plan to upgrade the CPU later and buying a computer that gives you lots of options for upgrades in the future. I don't recommend people buy a computer with an inferior CPU with a plan to upgrade to a better one later, but some people do it thou it is very rare.

Yeah that's just about the worst thing one can do with a new build is buy with the intention of upgrading. Because you will never be satisfied with what you have and you'll wind up spending 2 or even 3 times as much than if you had initially planned for the budget you really wanted. Believe me I've been there and won't make that mistake ever again.

I hope your right about that, though some people state they have never bought computer parts before and their 1st build is a 2011 v3 system (that just makes me wonder). One thing this business has taught me is never underestimate some of the crazy things people try or want to do.

I don't see anything wrong with that, frankly. My first DIY rig was an Intel X58 system and I didn't know a single thing about overclocking or even adding an aftermarket cooler. Once you get past the first build you evolve and try new things with your next.

No nothing wrong with it, I personally would prefer to practice assembling a less expensive system 1st, but that's just me. Now days you can go on youtube and get step by step instructions on how to do it. I remember the 1st time I had to swap out a motherboard and I didn't have any instructions, and you had a floppy controller, hard drive controller, IO card, Lan card, thou I think it may have connected by the serial ports back then. Today things are SO much easier now with all the integrated stuff on motherboards. It is amazing how much things have evolved and improved.