AMD Mantle: A Graphics API Tested In Depth

[childofthekorn]

MANTLE, a few points.

What most people fail to understand is that it's not just about raw performance. Game developers have constant DRIVER issues due to the wide variety of PC hardware, as well as other technical issues that DX11 and previous have.

These problem add to development costs beforehand, technical support after as well as any costs associated with problems that reduce the number of games sold due to reviews and word-of-mouth.

Game developer first sat down and listed all their main problems, then Mantle was designed based on these issues, which also includes no support for older hardware which further reduces problems.

*There's no guarantee that DX12 will solve all the problems that Mantel will address (Mantel is a work in progress), and additionally Mantle isn't as locked down for code as Microsoft's DX12 is. Also considering the issues Microsoft has been having overall and the poor return of gaming to their bottom line it's hard to say what we can expect.

Mantle thus has the potential to be much BETTER than DX12 if the code is fully open and getting more constant udates. The problem of course is that game developers aren't going to want to develop multiple API's. So, why do Mantle AND do DX12? Sure, we see games in development currently but that's because DX12 is a ways away, plus there's a fairly simple way to convert Mantle to DX12 so many of those games may not end up as Mantle at all.

I would really, really love to see Mantle end up as the ONLY choice for PC, Steam/Linux, XB1 and PS4 but I can't see how that would ever happen unless Microsoft decides to bow out of PC gaming.

(Steam/Linux and the PS4 are actually pretty good options for the future. I don't see Sony objecting if Mantle got better than their current API. Since Steambox PC's use Linux they would require OpenGL or Mantle so I can see Mantle there at some point.)

Currently (once Steambox is out) we're looking at a cross-platform game having to use as many as FIVE different API's, such as:
1) DX12 - Windows
2) OpenGL or Mantle - Steambox
3) PS4's API
4) XBOX ONE's API (similar to DX12 but not identical)

That's only four, but on Windows I don't know if they would be DX12 only or require DX11 or previous to include more hardware. We currently see games that can use DX11 or DX9, however I'm just not sure how DX12 works with backwards compatibility.

So if Microsoft would just ah heck off at some point, once Mantle improves, we could theoretically get developers using Mantle only. They would LOVE that.

NO, devs have said PS4 has no need for this api as it's already good, and MS will wait for dx12. ZERO hope of consoles using Mantle. Mantle won't take over anything. Valve will push OpenGL as it works on ANY steamOS box. No point in pushing their devs to Mantle, they won't waste the time as gabe isn't stupid. He wants linux opengl gaming to work everywhere and be portable to anything else easily and playable by everyone. DX11 already solves many problems Mantle addresses, see BF4/Thief scores, Star Swarm Scores where now NV wins all 3. Mantle not needed. All the mantle games are only coming because AMD is still writing checks. A dev has no desire to write that code for free when no expected EXTRA price on top of a game when they sell it, and it's for a FEW cards as you note. Total waste of time if AMD doesn't write you a check. Reviews of the mantle games haven't been good, it's the same on all sides. The games have problems because they push out betas and expect us to beta test them for a year while the patch them to death. Mantle hasn't changed that at all.

AMD says devs sat down and said that stuff. And DX12/OpenGL were already in progress for years, so not sure they weren't all working on the same issues anyway. Nv has proven you can fix draw calls etc with DX11, or they wouldn't have take over BF4, Thief and Star Swarm with it.

The only api that works everywhere that you listed above is....OpenGL. Xbox1 is the only odd man out, and they can fix that if forced as DX dies a slow death on win9. Mantle wouldn't win even if MS just left the field today. OpenGL would. Mantle will never be open (even if you could call it that at some point) because NV will never use it as it will hinder them because it is about getting AMD's latest features used, so they'll always have an issue in Mantle games. Since NV owns 65% of discrete (maybe more now, AMD's quarter sucked, lost share to intel, probably NV also), they will stay DX (until weakened) and OpenGL pushed heavily off windows (mobile etc) so at some point they can sell you cpus for full desktops along with their discrete cards (that's the point of denver, steal from Intel/x86 down the road) on a system that has ONLY FREE Operating systems on board (linux, steamos, androidL). I'm sure a steam OS port to ARM (for denver etc) is in the works as we speak. Valve will want a piece of the game sales going on over on android for sure.

Steam Boxes already have OpenGL, why re-invent the wheel when it only runs on a few piece of hardware vs. the original (opengl) that already works everywhere and most know it inside out? It has already had the ability for mass draw calls for years, people just didn't know how to use it as NV explained on stage a while back. A few lines of code sped up a devs code by 4x, and he said he could easily get 8x with a bit more effort.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bCeNzgiJ8I&html5=1
The draw call topic is covered in this NV speech from steam dev days. Great vid.
"In this session, Cass Everitt and John McDonald from NVIDIA will talk about some newer extensions to OpenGL and how they can reduce (or even eliminate) driver overhead. We'll discuss where performance goes, how to effectively profile GL, as well as specific extensions such as bindless rendering and MultiDraw commands."

Mantle mimiks the API's the Consoles use. I never heard of any of the manufacturers ever saying they were even remotely interested in Mantle when they had their own API being developed years prior to Mantle being a figment of our imagination (or in some cases worst nightmare ). They're just bringing an API to the desktop to attempt to get the same type of performance that consoles receive. As lackluster as they are, given the consoles hardware specs and how they've performed all these years is a testament to how potentially beneficial an API can be in producing beautiful scenery.

 

[somebodyspecial]

I'm going to keep this short. I think mantle is stupid. Just as I thought physx was stupid. Directx12 is for both manufacturers while mantle favors is for amd. Exclusivity splits and kills markets and communities. Not to mention its further adding on development time games as they are developed and setup for consoles and PC then have to have mantles api injected and rearranged to run off it. I think manle is amd trying to shift the market in a really stupid way. Its shitty the market favors Intel and nvidia but creating exclusivity isn't the way yo go at least physx is an option not a requirement.

If AMD lives up to their word and eventually opens up Mantle to any/all competitors like they said they would, would you feel different about it then?

No, because everyone NOT using GCN cores will be at a disadvantage. Since only AMD will EVER make them, that puts 65% of discrete market on the ropes, and the largest portion of the market period (intel) out also. So anything a dev does to waste time on this robs from the rest of us getting a great experience (you know, one everyone has a fair shot at running, dx, opengl). Let me know when they get done with dx9/dx10 drivers for last gen cards (phase3 or whatever, though they seem to have just said screw them).

 

[childofthekorn]

I'm going to keep this short. I think mantle is stupid. Just as I thought physx was stupid. Directx12 is for both manufacturers while mantle favors is for amd. Exclusivity splits and kills markets and communities. Not to mention its further adding on development time games as they are developed and setup for consoles and PC then have to have mantles api injected and rearranged to run off it. I think manle is amd trying to shift the market in a really stupid way. Its shitty the market favors Intel and nvidia but creating exclusivity isn't the way yo go at least physx is an option not a requirement.

If AMD lives up to their word and eventually opens up Mantle to any/all competitors like they said they would, would you feel different about it then?

No, because everyone NOT using GCN cores will be at a disadvantage. Since only AMD will EVER make them, that puts 65% of discrete market on the ropes, and the largest portion of the market period (intel) out also. So anything a dev does to waste time on this robs from the rest of us getting a great experience (you know, one everyone has a fair shot at running, dx, opengl). Let me know when they get done with dx9/dx10 drivers for last gen cards (phase3 or whatever, though they seem to have just said screw them).

Thanks for answering the question for Avocade .

IF mantle is released open source, Intel/Nvidia will be able to add their own architecture to Mantle. It'll take time for them to code mantle for their stuff, if they choose to do so, yet should see various theoretical benefits of offloading CPU load to the GPU. I'm not sure where you are thinking it'll be ONLY GCN *if* they follow through with their word of setting mantle open source after its released from Closed BETA. As one of the louder voices against Mantle seeing as its performance improvement only helps slightly, I'm surprised your claiming its now putting AMD's competitors at a disadvantage. Especially given any of AMD's competitors could've made their own API in order to gain an advantage.

 

[Avocade]

That's is a huge "IF". First mantle has to catch on, which i honestly don't see happening, a staple has already been made and I don't see Microsoft ever turning around and walking out of a market they dominate. Second of all even if AMD released the api source, I can't see Nvidia or Intel wanting to adopt it openly. It will never perform as well for Nvidia or Intel as it does for AMD still putting a split down the middle of the market.

 

[somebodyspecial]

No, because everyone NOT using GCN cores will be at a disadvantage. Since only AMD will EVER make them, that puts 65% of discrete market on the ropes, and the largest portion of the market period (intel) out also. So anything a dev does to waste time on this robs from the rest of us getting a great experience (you know, one everyone has a fair shot at running, dx, opengl). Let me know when they get done with dx9/dx10 drivers for last gen cards (phase3 or whatever, though they seem to have just said screw them).

Thanks for answering the question for Avocade .

IF mantle is released open source, Intel/Nvidia will be able to add their own architecture to Mantle. It'll take time for them to code mantle for their stuff, if they choose to do so, yet should see various theoretical benefits of offloading CPU load to the GPU. I'm not sure where you are thinking it'll be ONLY GCN *if* they follow through with their word of setting mantle open source after its released from Closed BETA. As one of the louder voices against Mantle seeing as its performance improvement only helps slightly, I'm surprised your claiming its now putting AMD's competitors at a disadvantage. Especially given any of AMD's competitors could've made their own API in order to gain an advantage.

You're welcome It's easy for anyone to answer that one. It's not a perf advantage, it will be features only on their cards they'll be pushing. Again my problem with it is devs waste time supporting such a small audience instead of everyone. Yes NV could have made their own API, but what for? DX11 drivers from NV already topple Mantle perf, so devs are wasting their time and so is AMD (in AMD's case MONEY too, another $36mil loss this Quarter). Get back to REAL drivers AMD, for DX/OpenGL which stops devs from writing for yet another API and improves perf across MANY games via better drivers.

 

[Avocade]

http://www.overclock3d.net/articles/cpu_mainboard/nvidia_speaks_about_mantle_-_they_won_t_support_it/1

 

[Avocade]

This API thing needs to end. Both AMD and Nvidia need to put money into pushing for PC exclusives this will promote sales growths for PC and for components. Think about how many more games PC could have if hardware manufacturers such as Intel, AMD, Nvidia, and Asus started putting out money to developers to either open their exclusives to PC or create exclusives for PC. They want to beef up their sales you have to give people a reason to buy your products. I'm a PC gamer but I love the uncharted series I'd buy a ps4 just to play it which I think speaks volumes for the gaming community. They will dump money into the most enticing system with the games they want. Look at the PC digital sales growth this last year due to more games coming to pc.

 

[vider]

The public reading the current articles on Toms hardware and then votes down some of the most intelligent comments that are left in the comments section is becoming a serious threat to this website. How can it be that so many voted down the comment of the gentleman that spoke up for Opengl? Don't they know that if not for Opengl that there would be no DirectX, no advanced gaming would of been possible on mobile platforms (that most use Opengl ES to render the graphics on those devices) and that would be still designing on a draw board all of our gadgets and equipment???