Animation Workstation With A Budget of $2k to $3k

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klhsx1

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I am looking to buy or build a workstation for animation and 3D modelling. I will be doing forensic animations which may use physics simulations. I am a physics major who has started over in the arts. 3D modelling, for forensic animation is going to be my full time income. I use Maya, Zbrush, 3d Studio Max, Matlab. Do you have any other suggestions?

I'm looking to spend $2000 CAD on computer and $1000 CAD on a graphics card. I have screens, projectors, and a Wacom Cintiq latest largest model, which cost 4k.

I have been looking at a used HP Z800 or HP Z420 and a deal has come up for a local machine:

HP z800 2x Quad core xeon E5620 CPU. 48gb ram, Nvidia Quadro FX1800 for $1075.

Or I can get the same model with a 2x X5690 6core per CPU for $600 more
I’m mainly interested in the two x5690 for $600.
The HP z800 is average price, but I believe that processor price is good (seems like a 2 for 1 price). I’m comparing this machine to a newer version like HP z 420, and it seems like there’s not much improvement. The new machines have:

- DDR4 (doesn't seem to add much from what I’ve read)
- PCI 3.0 (doesn't seem to add much)
- New chip socket compatibility allows E type chips

In comparing the E5-1620 to the x5690 it seems they have about the same performance. The Z420 has smaller power supply. It only fits one CPU, and may only support one graphics card, due to power supply restrictions. According to the seller the Z800 will allow two decent sized graphics cards since it has a power supply of 1150 watt. I have not looked at building computers for years, and for the last few weeks have been reading about it all day.

Any input is appreciated, including more obvious user considerations that I may have missed between PC and workstation.



 
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Found a local Z420 for $678

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/HP-Z420-Workstation-Intel-Quad-Core-Xeon-E5-1620-3-6GHz-16GB-500GB-Q600-Desktop-/172141711739?hash=item281472117b:g:OIMAAOSwYHxWJnHb

E5-1620 3.6GHz-16GB-500GB-Q600-Desktop
nVidia Quadro 600 - 1GB DDR3

Add the E52690
$540 Canadian add 20% brokerage fees = $648

$1326

Still needs ram upgrade to match z800 at 48 gig

$200

Total $1526

The seller for the z800 dual x5690 has dropped the price to $1400 without me asking. I could possibly talk him down even more.


 
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klhsx1,

The z420 at $678- will the seller take less? and with the E5-2690 I think is the better solution:

1. The E5-2690 has a single- threaded performance of 1880 as compared to 1520 for the X5690- important for faster modeling,
2. The average CPU score of a single E5-2690 is 14308 as compared to dual X5690 at 14372 - virtually identical.
3. The idea that Maya objects to dual processors and the general result that show multi-threaded applications often peaking effieciency at 5-6 cores
4. DDR3-1600 RAM instead of DDR3-1333
5. The z420 has a 6GB/s SATA III disk system as compared to the 3GB/s SATA II of the z800.

A for the dual GPU's, check the software you're likely to use to ensure that it will recognize dual GPU's. You may be better off with a stronger single card. There is by the way the impending release (June?) of new NVIDIA Pascal GPU's and the "GTX 1080 TI" is said to have 16GB and over 3,400? CUDA cores. The Quadros I suppose will come later, but when they do, cards like the Quadro M4000 8GB will start dropping.

Yes, the $678 z420 if the condition is good and is complete sounds like the proper thing. Make sure the Windows COA product key is legible so you can reload Windows without cost.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

 
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The seller for the Z800
dual x5690
48gig ram
1 TB SATA
fx1800

Has contacted me and lowered the price to $1300

He has informed me that he needs money desperately to fly home for family emergency.

I offered him $1200 and am awaiting a reply.

 
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Z800 Seller accepted my offer for $1200 Should I do it?

Things to check before making the purchase?
Go into device manager and check the CPU and RAM?
Open the machine and smell for burnt plastic?
I guess you can't easily check the physical CPU before purchasing?

Been a while since I bought a used computer... Like never...

Thanks for the input guys.
 
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So after some reading I am trying to determine what advantages in usage qualities I will get from the dual CPU with 12 physical cores. I think the main advantage is if I run several programs at once it will stand up better than a single CPU?

This also depends on the total CPU Cache however?

So for the x5690 with 12mb of cache each, total of 24mb spread out on 12 cores, If I have photoshop, illustrator, and Maya open, it will perform better than the 8 core machine with a single cpu that has 20mb of cache.

Does this make sense or not?

I will be working in this way passing things from one software to another while they are still open.

 
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If single threaded performance indicates efficiency in single threaded applications, does CPU score determine multi tasking performance? Throughout several programs running simultaneously? Im going to have to read about these ratings more.
 
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Overall CPU score indicates how well the CPU does with all of its threads utilized versus single-threaded which indicates performance with only one thread utilized. Some programs are good at utilizing many threads while others utilize just a few or even just one, which is what determines what CPU is ideal for you (based on what programs you use).

As far as cache amount goes, it makes a marginal difference. More cache is mainly useful for machines built with one purpose (e.g. video encoding) as they'll only be doing one thing over and over.
 
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Professional graphics n00b here.

Why is everyone suggesting Quadro cards? According to reviews like this on Tom's ("AMD FirePro W8100 Review: The Professional Radeon R9 290" - http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/firepro-w8100-workstation-graphics-card,3868.html ) it seems that AMD offers best bang-for-buck for their cards, and in some cases better performance full stop.

Are the programs that klhsx1 listed (Maya, Zbrush, 3d Studio Max, Matlab) built for CUDA instead of OpenCL so they can *only* run on Nvidia hardware? (After a quick search it appears that Matlab is CUDA only, but I'm not sure if those search results are recent and still relevant. Is Matlab still CUDA only?) Are used AMD Firepro cards more expensive than used Quadro cards?

Thank you
Andrew


Edit:
Including the results of my quick CUDA only/Firepro compatibility searches.
 
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Andrew,


All my computers since 1992 (started with a pair of Apple 2's) have gravitated towards visualization systems, running 2D and 3D CAD, graphic design, simulation, engineering and rendering, so I've used a lot of workstation GPU's.

Given the complexity of visualization software, it's been necessary to focus the approach to vector conversion, polygon positional calculation- textures, fluid dynamic, particles, and for example hair in animation require high double precision and high speed -and object transformative sequences that are dynamically extrapolative are very difficult to do quickly. But you need all these things to predict weather, design BMW's, and have Batman movies.

Because of the need for precision, high anti-aliasing, and to support the complexity of viewports with multiple simultaneous views, workstations cards are not as fast in terms of frame rates as consumer /gaming cards which have a "good enough" approach to image quality to have high frame rates in video and games.

Eventually, GPU's have become powerful processors and the World's fastest supercomputers are based on them the Oak Ridge Titan has more than 18,000 NVIDIA GPU's and I think there will be a point at which CPU's are thought of of a "GPU Controller's"- doing the processing and the CPU runs the disk and memory.

As for choices, the early focus on CUDA acceleration be several of the important software makers has made optimization for CUDA and therefore Quadros and Open GL a focus of the writing of drivers. See, NVIDIA, "GPU Applications" for an idea of the links between software and the NVIDIA design approach.

It's not that Maya, Zbrush, 3d Studio Max, and Matlab can run only on Quadros, but at the very top end, Quadros are usually the fastest because of the trend of this need of the high level software to optimize for CUDA. Quite often, there is a leapfrogging of Quadro and Firepro GPU's in terms of very high performance. I

However, the perception that all Firepros for the same cost have higher performance than Quaros is not universally true today. At the moment, the leap was made by NVIDIA with the Kepler and Maxwell processors and an $830 Quadro M4000 8GB may have the best cost /performance of any workstation card, though the K620 is another amazing value. Have a look at the Passmark high end GPU comparison chart and you'll see for example that the $830 Quadro M4000 has an average 3D rating of 6376 as compared to a $3,444 Firepro W9100 at 5268. Further down, the Quadro K1200 about $300 averages 2887 to the Firepro 2783 for $325, the K620 ($160) averages 2263 and the Firepro W4100 scores 1580 for $160.

GPU's are to me the most difficult hardware choice as the performance is so closely tied to way individual programs are written and the application is so varied.

Cheers,

BambiBoom



 
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This is inherently the problem when trying to spec a machine for a variety of software. I ran into this myself recently and constantly second guessed myself when picking out parts. Unless you're primarily using one particular application, you're never going to find the "best" option. For what it's worth, with the exception of Matlab I use the same software you do, as well as the entire Adobe suite and Cinema4D. Here are the parts I went with:

Asus x99M-WS
i7 5960x
Quadro M4000
Corsair Vengeance 32 GB DDR4 RAM
Samsung 950 pro pcie SSD
Phantek Enthoo Evolv mATX chassis
EKWB L240 water cooling kit

I was originally pricing out Boxx and HP options, but in the end was interested in the project side of building a PC and of course being able to get more bang for my buck. I was originally looking at the 5930k because it was good value and you get the 40 pcie lanes. But the allure of the 8 core was too much and spent the extra. I ended up overclocking it to 4.0. I also probably went a bit overkill on the SSD and watercooling kit, but I thought I'd treat myself over the holidays.

There's been some really good advice and suggestions in this thread, but one I haven't seen you answer is if you truly need a Xeon over something like the i7.



There is no better. It really depends on the renderer and what you're using it for. And no, CPU speed doesn't really matter as far as GPU rendering is concerned.
 
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Seem like a good deal to me if you don't mind go with used processor but 70$ a processor and for what you want to do it's quite good except for gaming and even there it's good but not for AAA gaming.

http://www.techspot.com/review/1155-affordable-dual-xeon-pc/
 
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jmcrowe

puget systems did a bunch of tests, and wrote this comparison.

This is why I am choosing Xeon

Conclusion
To sum up this article, there are four main points we want to make:

Clock-per-clock, Core i7-5XXX and Xeon E5 v3 CPUs have identical performance
Xeon E5 v3 CPUs have a much wider range of models than Core i7-5XXX CPUs allowing for higher (and lower) core counts and a wider range of operating frequencies
Xeon E5 v3 CPUs have much higher RAM capacity through the use of Registered ECC memory (768GB versus 64GB)
You do not need a server board to use a Xeon E5 v3 CPU. Most X99 motherboards work great even with Reg ECC memory (although Reg ECC memory is usually not officially supported)
So why would you ever buy a Core i7-5XXX CPU instead of a Xeon E5 v3? What it comes down to is that Core i7 CPUs are usually slightly cheaper than their Xeon E5 v3 counterparts and they allow for CPU overclocking. If you do not plan on overclocking, we highly recommend you consider using a Xeon instead of a Core i7 CPU. You get a much wider range of options - which allows you to get exactly the core count and frequency that is best for your application - and the capability to have huge amounts of system RAM. Even if you don't ever anticipate needing more than 64GB of RAM, having the option for future upgrades is almost never a bad thing.

-https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Intel-CPUs-Xeon-E5-vs-Core-i7-634/
 
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e5 2687w version 2 im looking at now
or e5 1660

however the new GTX cards are out in two weeks now and Im trying to determine how it will perform in maya viewport versus a quadro card.


 
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klhsx1,

The Xeon E5-2687w v2 (8-core @ 3.4 /4.0GHz) may be the best dual-configuration Xeon ever given the single-threaded performance and high clock speed overall.

E5-2687w v2_Passmark:

CPU mark: 16670
Single-thread 2060

Due to their performance / reputation, they are still expensive though at least $1,500.

The E5-1660 v2 (6-core @ 3.7/4.0GHz) is also very good and has the advantage i Maya modeling of a higher single-thread rating:

E5-1660 v2_Passmark:

CPU mark: 13790
Single-thread 2105

And those are sold for less than half of a E5-2687w v2

Looking at test results in which the efficiency of multi-core rendering drops off so quickly and some rendering software really drops off on dual CPU's, I'm convinced that a fast 8-core is probably the way to go. If you can find an E5-2687w v2 at the right price, I'd say that is a great choice- probably the best possible. However, as E5 v2's are LGA2011 that will not work with an X99 motherboard which is LGA2011-3 and needs an E5 v3.

The Quadro /GTX debate rages on. On the Autodesk Certified Hardware list, there are only two consumer GPUS' listed: GTX690 and Titan.

But have a look at this Tom's Workstation GPU test "Workstation Graphics: 14 FirePro And Quadro Cards" from 2013. On Page 8 there are results for Maya. On a particular test task, a $1,000 GTX Titan took 283.97 seconds while the $160 Firepro V3900 required 79.18 seconds,a Quadro 4000 required 56.18. On another, Titan-52.46sec, and V3900 48.65- still faster for 1.8t6h cost.

In my view, to be able to run every feature of any content software and your primary application is Autodesk, Adobe, or Dessault (Solidworks), stick with a Quadro. My vote would be the Quadro M4000 (8GB).

Where are you with your new system?


Cheers,

BambiBoom





 
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I took a step back and waited for the new cards to come (real soon now like 6 days ).

I have been watching prices.

this came up yesterday


$2770 kijiji from office sale

The Spec of System is as follows:
CPU : Intel Xeon E5-2687W V2 (3.4GHZ Highest Speed OCTA Core) (single CPU in this machine)
Heat Sink: HP Liquid Cooling Heat Sink (Quiet and Efficient)

MEMORY : 32GB ECC RAM (8GB X 4)

1ST HARD : 512 Samsung EVO Pro SATA 3 SSD
2ND HARD : 2TB Western Digital Cabier Black SATA 3

GRAPHIC CARD : Nvidia Quadro K4000 (Professional Graphic ard for CAD, Graphic Design,...)

DVD ROM : HP BLUERAY DRIVE

POWER SUPPLY : 1150W (You can upgrade as much as you want - enough power)



I asked if I leave out the card they said they would sell for $2450, or $2770 with 64g (1866mhz ram) and no graphic card.



or theres this for $745.50

HP Z420 Workstation
Intel Quad Core Xeon 3.6GHz - 16GB RAM
300GB 10K SATA - 1TB 7.2K Enterpise SATA - Quadro 600



or for $1116.24

from ebay

HP Z420 Xeon Six Core E5-1660 3.3GHz 16gb 1TB NVS 295

Ive started looking at unreal engine, and using it for film making, and obviously game design. Also tried occulus rift, and looking at HTC Vive...


Ive been leaning toward the 1660 machine, and the gtx 1080 card. I am now wondering if I had a mid level quadro card, and a GTX 1080 if that would give me the best of both worlds, but this is a new idea I have to research.

If i could get that z 820 and talk them into the ram, and the k4000 card at asking price. I would have to spend another $1000 CAD on the 1080 card. Getting expensive, but that machine is ready to go has the SSD drive I need.

I do like to work with a bunch of softwares open simultaneously and I think that 8 cores handles this better than 6? Maybe you can comment BambiBoom ?

For working in unreal engine the GTX card will have the clear advantage over quadro I assume ( have to clarify this).

thanks guys .

 
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klhsx1,

As far as I know, Unreal Engine flies on GTX and is not multi-threaded (=high clock speed 4-core), and needs a very fast disk and 32GB of RAM. So the question becomes one of the other software you might use and if there's Maya or 3Ds and, .ore Premiere, then more cores and Quadros make sense.

The $2770 system sounds good given a used E5-2687W V2 can cost minimum $1000 on Ebahhh. I would delete the K4000 though and at minimum have a Quadro M4000.

Here was an idea I had earlier that might suit your use also

1. A low specification HP z620- about $600,

2. Add a E5-2687W (not V2)- $350 or used E5-2690 (2.9 /3.8GHz)- $280
____ The E5-2687W has an average Passmark CPU rating of 14434, single thread of 1870
____ [The E5-2687W V2 has an average Passmark CPU rating of 16670, single thread of 2060
____ The E5-2690 has an average Passmark CPU rating of 14445, single thread of 1888.

3. Bring the z620 up to 32GB - about $250 ?

4. Used Quadro M4000 $700

5. Intel 750 Series AIC 400GB PCI-Express 3.0 x4 MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) SSDPEDMW400G4X1 > $350

6. WD Black or Seagate Constellation 1TB> $100 budget
______________________________________

TOTAL= about $2350 with E5 2687

Then I could add a second CPU later if it made sense.

To have that be an E5 2687 V2 would add about $700- so perhaps $3100 but that would have a terrific GPU and PCIe SSD for only an extra $300. But the E5 2687w V2 system with no GPU at $2450 is probably the best deal though that will be getting on $3200 with a Quadro M4000.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

Ever had KLH speakers?
 
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My first speakers were KLH model 5, and I had a pioneer sx 850. From there I started building speakers! Electrostats, then back to conventional magnetic.

Now I have a clone of the focal grand utopia :)
 
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klhsx1,

Regarding your proposed system, here's an idea:

1. HP z620 with low specification CPU, GPU, and etc- about $600
__HP z620 has a RAM capacity of 192GB
__Can add a 2nd CPU later which will be a benefit in Matlab
__2X GPU
__800W PSU

2. Xeon E5-2687w (8-core @ 3.1 /3.8GHz) > About $350
__Passmark 14443_(Dual 21264) Single threaded 1873_150W

OR

2ALT. Xeon E5-2687w V2 (8-core @ 3.4 /4.0GHz) > About $1200
____Passmark 16670_(Dual 21264) Single threaded 2060_150W

3. Add to 32GB RAM, leaving slots for 64GB > $200

4. GPU of Choice> $850 budget

5. Intel 750 400GB > $350

6. Storage drives RAID 1 > $250

______________________________

TOTAL = about $2,700 or $3,600 with E5-2687w V2

This could also be done as a single CPU system using an E5-1660 V2 (3.4 .4.0GHz)- sort of a 6-core E5-2687w V2 > about $750- total about $3100. The single-threaded performance is among the highest- excellent for modeling.

____Passmark 13790_Single threaded 2205_130W

an E5-1660 is not a bad idea either > About $150:
____Passmark 12513_Single threaded 1970_130W

Computer Audio: I had KLH's long ago (Model 2?), and also Advent Larger, and AR3A - the Boston Sound. I used tall these with my first stereo , a Marantz 2235 receiver which I still have and with the original box. Today: Oracle/SME /McIntosh MR67>Audio Research tube (SP10 /D115) and Vandersteen 3A- LP's on tubes. The office system is Cambridge Audio 640 / McIntosh MR77 > Audio Research SS (LS3/ D130) and Vandersteeen 2CE: Digital on solid state. For about 5 years until two years ago, I ran the output from the PCI M-Audio 192 soundcard (25/192 MIDI I/O) in my main system to the LS3/D130 system, but I use a Logitech z2300 as the satellite speaker placement is so much better.

If you are using sound in animations, as part of your new system, consider the sound interface and monitoring.

In my news, I bought a Xeon E5-2687w yesterday and am thinking to put it in my spare HP z420, which us currently an E5-1620 4-core / 24GB, and Firepro V4900. I haven't decided on the GPU, but as a 2nd system to replace the Precision T5500 (2X Xeon X5680/ 48GB / Quadro K2200/ Samsung 840) for rendering , it's a bit more than I need as the z420 with E5-1660 V2 is so fast for rendering anyway. I might stick with the T5500 as 2nd system. I was thinking about your use and the idea of a very fast four core for modeling and an LGA1366 with 12-cores for animation /processing and Matlab that can sit in the corner and work on long slogs. The T5500 cost a total of about $1,000.

What are you plans for monitors?

Cheers,

BambiBoom

 
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I am a total audiophile, I also studied acoustics masters. I build room treatments too. Diffusors, and absorbers. My system is all active, digital EQ, digital x over, blue circle class A mono blocks, anthem tube amp for mids, had mark levinsons as well but sold them.

When you go active the amps don't need to be so high end. Good speakers, active x over, and its gonna be great.

I run everything from Sonos, and play music off digital drives and control it with my phone. Used to have sonic frontiers Line 3 tube pre amp, but it didn't work in this active system. My speakers are 6 way focal utopia drivers and take up half the room!

For monitors, I work on a cintiq 27qhd, which cost me $4300,
I work on a LG 42" LCD
All calibrated with Xrite I-1 display profiler
I also have an optoma projector

I am looking at getting a VR set.
Occulus Rift or HTC Vive.
 
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Every time you post those performance numbers I can't help but notice, that the chip is way more than double cost for about 10-20% performance increase.

Makes me want to stick with a simple hp z420 e5 -1650 machine. Put the extra money into the new 1080 card, and possibly a quadro card as well.
 
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klhsx1,

You know your priorities and proportion on modeling /simulation to animation /rendering, and etc. Over time Ive found that about 95% of my time is spent on single-threaded applications and so I'm better off with a high clock speed / high single threaded CPU. that is how I chose the Xeon E5-1660 v2.

However, in your use, you mentioned Matlab,and given the range of video processing, I'd suggest a flexible system with strong single-threaded, but can be expanded for highly multi-threaded applications- video editing, animation processing and high computational needs such as Matlab. For that I'd suggest an HP z620 with an E5-2690 8-core @ 2.9 / 3.8GHz and 32GB or 64GB RAM. The single-threaded performance is not at the very top: Passmark = 1873, but I've done very complex, large 3D modeling on Xeon X5680 with a single-threaded rating of 1465. In the future that can add a 2nd CPU and double the amount of RAM. With a good GPU and disks, the system should run anything you need to do for up to 4-5 years.

GPU: If you're going to run Matlab, you will benefit from a Quadro and CUDA coprocessing, but importantly, look into the single and double precision figures as compared to GTX. Also, in case you were thinking of running a Quadro and GTX in the same system, I looked into this a few years ago and it's apparently not possible as the drivers conflict. I've wonderif it's possible the system could be dual boot or run VM's with one optimized and configured for the Quadro and the other to the GTX, But I think this would involve having to reset the primary GPU in BIOS at each change. I've never found anyone that's tried this approach.

Fascinating audio history!

Cheers,

BambiBoom
 
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So the new GTX 1080 has been out for a little bit now, and info is surfacing about performance.

I am leaning towards this instead of the m4000 at this point.

I have started to look at VR , and unreal engine for game design.

Seems like a gtx 1080 will do some things a lot better than a quadro m4000, and pretty much tie with it in other areas that its weaker.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-pascal,review-33557-9.html

The fellow with the z820 64 gig ram, 512 SSD, 2TB SATA, single e5 2687w v2, Has lowered price to $2450. No 3d card, or $2770 with k4200.
Would take me to $3500 with a gtx 1080.

Might have to go this route I think .. was debating getting the k4200 with it and learning some software and then deciding on m4000 or gtx 1080.....
 
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Here is the build:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-6950X 3.0GHz 10-Core Processor ($1743.00 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Corsair H100i v2 70.7 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler ($94.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Asus X99-A ATX LGA2011-3 Motherboard ($215.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($239.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung XP941 Series 512GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive ($299.90 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($82.89 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Video Card ($600.00)
Case: Corsair 750D ATX Full Tower Case ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Corsair RMx 1000W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($149.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $3546.74
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2016-06-09 18:57 EDT-0400
 
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