Another AMD Korea-related thread dead. *DELETED*

[cutepunk]

Wow.. So many posts on this thread too..

I have lived in U.S before and now I'm living in Korea, so I'm quite familiar with both cultures. So far, as I look at the situation with AMD CPUs in Korea right now, I think there are some misunderstanding, and I want to be as honest as possible.

Until now, one my the reasons why Korean people bought (especially the enthusiasts) AMD CPUs is its super warranty policy. Virtually all cracked, burned, and chipped CPUs were given replacements, free of charge. When the broken CPUs were out of production or out of stock, the customers were given options to pay a few more for next-level-up ones. People got used to this policy, and we thought this was quite a normal thing to do since AMD needed to expand its market share in Korea. (their share in Korea never went above 20% though)

All of sudden, one of the main distributors said that they were given warnings from AMD headquarters in Austin, Texas because of 'unusually high' warranty claims. Some sites are saying that claim ratio in Korean market is almost 25 times higher than that of Japan. What I don't understand here is that, AMD kept on doing this practice ever since the introduction of T-bird core Athlon, as they were too fragile. Why is AMD talking about 'unusually high rate of bad CPUs' now? They should have done it a long time ago. Maybe it's because AMD has made Palomino cores less fragile, and they are confident that AthlonXPs would not crack, chip, or burn with proper use. This is open for some discussion.

The claim precedure involves the distributor, AMD Korea, and AMD Heaquarters. When the distributor collects bad CPUs, they send them to AMD Korea, and AMD Korea sends it to the AMD factory in Austin. In this sense, it is pretty logical to say that AMD Korea is involved in this matter. They are denying the involvement, but I think that's BS.

Personally, I think AMD did what they had to do, and what was logical to do : stop exchanging user-abused CPUs. I totally agree with the decision. Some of the anti-AMD arguments that's being said in Korea are based on nonsense, because they are confusing the actual meaning of "Warranty." It does not state that AMD CPUs are fool-proof. The generous replacement policy in Korea should never have been applied considering AMD's policy in other countries, but that's the treatment we got so used to.

From now on though, that kind of replacement policy is basically abolished, and the distributors switched to more 'scientific' policy. When a user takes a bad CPU to them, they look carefully at the core to see if there are any dents, chips, or signs of burning to the core. Then they use a electrical resistence testing machine to see if Vcc and Vss of the CPU shows any signs of burning, or short in the circuit. The CPU must 'pass' these tests to be replaced. The distributors are saying that this precedure was given to them from AMD Korea. (!)
So far, as far as I know, almost no one got a replacement going through these tests, firstly because it is virtually impossible to keep the core clean from dents when you remove and reinstall coolers a few times. Secondly, most of these CPUs fail Vcc and Vss tests. But even the distributors are doubting the credibility of the Vcc/Vss test, because it's not a perfect, 100% reliable method to distinguish if the CPU was burned, or it died of some other reason.

I agree with those who raises doubts about the precedure. AMD Korea should develop some other methods that are more reliable, because it seems that there are people who should have gotten replacements. Making a big deal out of little dents to the core is also questionable, because that's partly AMD's fault. Dents on the core can't prove that the CPU died of user abuse. Even I have made little dents to the core of T-birds (they did not die, though), and I did use extreme care when I installed the heatsinks.

AMD has won some big orders recently in Korea, (from major OEMs like Samsung) and people are saying that AMD Korea is being arrogant now. While I don't really think this way, AMD Korea should develop a reliable, and credible policy. Their current policy is too picky, I think. Moreover, while most of the discussion about this matter in Korea are understandable, some users do need to understand what a warranty really is.

Just my opinion, and please feel free to point out my errors and misunderstandings.

 

[Kennyshin]

Good point saying I need more "social skills" since this is the single most concentrated place for AMD fanatics in the world.

Do you agree to change your signature would make you look a lot less hostile, rude, disagreeable?

I came here first in 1996 or 1997, not in 2002. I didn't want personal help but wanted to find out what has gone wrong by whom and where.

Everyone has one's enemy inside and outside. If everyone has wrong points, everyone is my enemy. If everyone has good points, then everyone is my friend. I may criticize your wrong points but I do not believe anyone can really be my personal enemy. In your case, you just attack and laugh at a person and you clearly seem to enjoy that. That makes you look more disgusting.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[Kennyshin]

You said nothing about the fact AMD Korea applied the changed policy mostly for the products sold BEFORE, not after.

I don't think any people in the Korean websites and forums are protesting against the AMD Korea's change of warranty policy itself. They are angry because AMD Korea made use of them and now it's being arrogant. The distributors and AMD Korea did promise they would continue replacement explicitly and the customers paid not just for the products but also for the services. Since you are working right in a company in Yongsan, you know exactly what the price for replacement is. Koreans pay more and get less. The current Athlon price is higher than in any other country and now AMD Korea says it won't replace for any dead CPU no matter what happened - of course, they try to blame the users but often they lie and evade.

The people who now own AMD CPUs mostly would never have bought them if AMD was going to change its policy in March, 2002. Surely not me and none of those whom I know.

BTW, now I can guess who you are since you said you lived in the US before. I have read your news clips and reviews.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[AMD_Man]

Personally, I think AMD did what they had to do, and what was logical to do : stop exchanging user-abused CPUs. I totally agree with the decision. Some of the anti-AMD arguments that's being said in Korea are based on nonsense, because they are confusing the actual meaning of "Warranty." It does not state that AMD CPUs are fool-proof. The generous replacement policy in Korea should never have been applied considering AMD's policy in other countries, but that's the treatment we got so used to.

That's what I've been trying to tell Kennyshin but he thinks I'm an AMD fanatic. I'm not taking sides here. I was trying to say what I thought on the matter. Don't let me name fool you, I'm open to both companies and to discuss issues on both.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor

 

[eden]

Agreed here, I also was thinking the same way, that obviously something happened for AMD Korea to enroll this rule.
Yet again he beleived we are AMD-biased while we are trying to know what happened. At some point I got a bit angry at AMD for this, but then I still went to look for more evidence to make sure they're not fully guilty behind this, and as it turns out, I was right, as well as you, Zengeos and others.

CutePunk, I feel like that's a temporary punishment by AMD, because they realized they lost a whole bunch of CPU sales by giving free ones to irresponsible users. A warranty is not to be overused for personal use and entertainement. That's why we have OEM CPUs, to fiddle.

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

 

[Kennyshin]

Did "AMD fanatics" mean personal to you? I apologize if it did.

My opinion and Mr. CutePunk's opinion don't differ very much in this issue.

However, he didn't say everything in one posting and you seem to like that paragraph specifically.

I don't take sides either and I always have been extremely pro-AMD though I first read PC Magazine and BYTE about 11 years ago.

The whole issue is about the fact that AMD is virtually denying any responsibility for everything it has sold in 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002.

As I have said many times before, the way of business is different here in Korea. I'm saying Korea has to go on its way but too rapid change surely destroys everything and keeping promises is important.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[Kennyshin]

Are you saying AMD will give the money back since it gave up its own warranty policy in South Korea?

Besides, I thought you Eden are especially AMD-biased from I read in most of your posts.

Maybe you like to confuse yourself.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[Era]

Perhaps it was never AMD's warranty policy.
Korea is maybe the only place in the world,where you can get a free
replacement for a cracked or burnt up CPU.

Things maybe just got out of hand in there and AMD had to go back
to their *official* warranty policy.

 

[cutepunk]

First of all, congrats on your promotion to "member" status. Very quick promotion indeed.

I forgot to mention about the part you have said.

I also do not believe that AMD Korea should block warranty service to CPUs that are already sold. They should be given the same policy as before.

But the question remains, as there is no way to figure out 'intentional' burning or damaging the CPU just for the sake of replacement or upgrading. Since some people are really breaking their CPUs intentionally just to 'upgrade', it is quite acceptable that AMD will not give out higher-model CPUs. It is against the law anyway.

I think you would know who I am by now. I did write a reply to your posting at KBench.com, and you probably read it by now.

The whole matter is getting quite complicated, it seems. AMD Korea and the distributors are stuck in between AMD Headquarters and the customers. They sure cannot deny what AMD headquarters had ordered them to do, nor could they go against what customer wants. Somebody's gotta have to figure out a solution for this, and I believe the best solution is to stop replacing the CPUs with a higher model ones, and develop more reliable way to figure out whether or not the CPUs were abused. This way, AMD Korea and the distributors can lower the claim rates, and the customers will be awarded with lower prices that are similar to other markets of the world.

 

[Kennyshin]

What do you mean by "upgrade" and "higher-model CPU"? Does AMD provide a free upgrade to higher-model CPU for free in Korea? Did it ever to anyone?

And what exactly was that part MD "headquarters" "ordered"? Isn't AMD's Headquarter in Sunnyvale and "order" a rather strong term?

I feel your saying is rather contradictory. You said "to stop replacing the CPUs with a higher model ones" exactly for which? The Korean customers who are angry over this issue are the ones who already bought the CPUs with the knowledge of previous warranty condition. It's they who feel betrayed. I completely agree with everything else you said.

I strongly feel some people are lying somewhere. Surely some users "abused" with their CPUs which AMD Korea obviously encouraged and profited from. It's commonly known that AMD Korea supports AMD Mate and AMD Mania.

Well, you also forgot to say AMD Korea abruptly announced that it will completely block anything other than 3-Year warranty box products at the same time announcing it won't provide any replacement or refund from now on - I mean to that effect.

And when did any company here lower the price because of lower claim rates?

Hm. Well, thank you for the congrats and you also know I post probably more than anyone in the Korean websites which explains why I am so poor.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[Kennyshin]

Are you telling me that AMD officially does not replace or refund for any CPU it has sold?

Quite frankly and honestly, I don't think any "warranty" is necessary or desired in that case. Only reading some websites like The Register would suffice to buy a CPU.

Anyway, the Korean customers already paid the money so if AMD wants to go back to "NO WARRANTY" policy for their "3-YEAR Warranty" only policy (I mean AMD will never again sell any CPU except those 3-Year Warranty box products that are highest-priced), it'd better refund for everything it has sold in Korea right now. Maybe we can use that money to pay for the increase in Intel CPU price.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[zengeos]

How?

Simple. Many overclockers use various techniques to rejoin the various bridges on the chip required for better overclocking. There articles on the net on how to do this.

In addition, if the CPU is an OEM CPU it should be installed by the OEM. If the OEM damages it in install then it's THEIR responsibility. If a person buys an OEM version of the CPU then they are out of luck. The OEM CPUs don't carry the same warranty as the boxed chip. There are several webv sites, I can't remember any URLs offhand, but one is quite good at demonstrating how people improperly install CPUs and heatsink/fans and then try to return them for replacement, etc.

Quite interesting really.

Mark-

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!

 

[Era]

I have never heard of a spontaneously cracked CPU of any kind or flavor.
I have never heard of a spontaneously burt up CPU of any kind or flavor.
That is, without any apparent reason.

But I have heard of some died CPUs.Dead without any apparent reason.


Maybe I'm just that ignorant.

<A HREF="http://www.saunalahti.fi/~mnc/kadetys.html" target="_new">Spontaneous self-destruction</A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Era on 03/21/02 06:45 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[bront]

I have a retail Athlon 1600+ (1400MHz) and I run it at 1541MHz. I don't think that's "abuse."

Weather or not it's "Abuse", it is a violation of the AMD waranty. Same with overclocking an Intel CPU.

If you overclock your FSB by a single MHZ, you are violating the waranty. So, if the CPU burns out at that overclocked speed, that is your fault, not AMDs. They are rated, speced, and tested for a reason.

Bad trolls Bad trolls... Whacha gonna do... Whacha gonna do when they post here too...

 

[bront]

There are AMD Korea's warranty-related documents and the dead Athlon's picture, too. I annually post 20 to 50 thousand in many forums and news sites in Korea and KBench is one of them.

So, you post in many forums against AMD, yet you say you are looking for information on the issue?

ED: Sorry, I misunderstood this. It looks like you could be saying that you post negitively in several forums, but I think you ment that you post a lot and are seeing negitive postings in your forums now. Please accept my appology on this point.

I realy do think there is an issue of a misunderstanding of the AMD waranty and who is returning what to whom. It could simply be a language barrier problem, but I am finding it harder to belive that you are simply a concerned poster Kenny. You refuse to offer any concrete evidence on the subject, and any sudgestion as to what a problem and solution might be you simply shurg off as imposable.

Korea is an admited hotbed of pirated software, so why should we believe that all these AMD issues are simply AMD not honoring their waranty? You say that OCing your Athlon isn't abuse, but it is a violation of the waranty whether you believe it or not.

BTW, dhlucke's comments about clones and masturbation is just his sig. It's a joke, not an insult.

Bad trolls Bad trolls... Whacha gonna do... Whacha gonna do when they post here too...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Bront on 03/21/02 01:08 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Kennyshin]

No Boeing or Chernobyl would spontaneously explode I guess.
That is, without any "apparent" reason.

I never believed an Athlon would die or "crack" before October or November, 2001. I realized it could without any overclocking and too much pressure on the user's part. Before that time, I had experiences of installing CPUs hundreds of times because that was my part-time job and I was often in charge of taking care of PC systems whether it was army battalion or company office. There are thousands of workers (I am not sure whether I have to call them "technicians") who build systems every day in Seoul's Yongsan market alone. Very many of them will testify that AMD Athlon Thunderbirds and Palominos are easy to break or burn compared to CPU of any other kind or "flavor." Whether you'd think I am lying or exaggerating or believe me, it's your choice. I was one of the first who relayed and spread the AMD Athlon burning video by THG Lab in Munich to thousands of users in Korea. At that time, I was not ready to do some wild experiment like that myself since the only AMD CPU I had then was one 750-MHz Duron and maybe one or two Athlon. It was a few weeks later I bought more of them, especially the ones with AYHJA Thunderbird and Palomino core.

Well, why would so many Korean resellers stop dealing any AMD processor? They KNOW AMD CPUs made of Thunderbir and Palomino are fragile and die even without any user error. The shop owners themselves are usually close to some customers because it's mostly gathered in a small city so they are well aware of what happened to their customers. They tell them their experiences honestly. Some of them of course can lie or exaggerate but not all of them. The shop owners or the employees better tell the customers to take caution and if the CPU dies, come back here and we'll replace with another. If the replacement is impossible, it's natural the shop owners would hesitate very seriously in dealing the parts. Very many of my friends are saying "what do I have to tell my relatives and acquaintances for whom I had built Athlon PCs when AMD has betrayed them?" It's not rare to read those postings.

Just what would you feel in case your 3-Year warrantied CPU for which you had paid 50 percent more money than others is dead one day "for no apparent reason" and the manufacturer which both explicitly and implicitly promised replacement refuses now and answers it's all the user's fault and fights back (it's rather often in Korea some customer support people fight with their customers)? Well, maybe you can give it up. But what would you do then if the system is not your own but your girlfriend's or your relative's? (In this country, people live very closely with relatives, classmates, website forum members, collegues, and so on.)

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[bront]

What do you mean by "upgrade" and "higher-model CPU"?

What he is saying, which is actualy a common scam, is that some people were abusing the return policy to return out of date cpus and get replacements for them which were better than what they sent in. This is something AMD was doing when they were apparently honoring their waranty liberaly.

AMD might be overcompensating a bit on the CPU return policy, however, it might simply be a way to let the korean people know that they will not be accepting any return without testing it first.

Bad trolls Bad trolls... Whacha gonna do... Whacha gonna do when they post here too...

 

[Kennyshin]

Funny.

Most forums I post on are AMD-friendly and maybe I should say "most pro-AMD" in the world.

If what I say about AMD Korea's warranty issue is difficult to believe just because I am a Korean living in Korea and Korea is a "admited hotbed of pirated software," then would you accept the accusation some USA soldiers f*u*c*k*e*d and then killed some local Korean women just to enjoy sex and practice taking lives?

Well, sorry if I sounded Anti-American when I am really pro-American. I bought an AMD Am386 40-MHz mostly because I read so much on AMD for many years and wanted to support a hard-working company trying to catch up with big companies back in the summer of 1993 and now you tell me I post in "many forums against AMD."

That dhlucke's comment about clones and masturbations was said against directly to one specific person whose writings mostly just criticized AMD technologies and I read it and you are saying as if I do not tell joke from insult.

I may be asking too much from you. But you'd better open your eyes to outside world. That's also what I've been telling Koreans harshly for more than 10 years.

I get no money from anyone for writing hundreds a day. I just need to speak what I think is right and just and in this case AMD is completely wrong to refuse to do what it promised to do to an entire nation. It is a large-scale theft in my view.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[Kennyshin]

Who said I wanted any warranty for my CPU?
Why did you imagine I would not be aware the fact overclocked processors are never warrantied by any company?
Maybe your easy answer is that no Korean is literate and honest enough.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[zengeos]

I suggest then, that instead of getting angry at AMD for hardening it's replacement warranty, that you blame the real culprits. The few (percentage-wise) people who intentionally damaged their CPUs or violated their warranties and THEN tried to get replacement CPUs . By placing that undue burden on AMD, AMD responded in the only reasonable way it could. It turned down replacement warranties unless the CPUs were clearly NOT user damaged CPUs but actually defective.

So rant all you want. It's only hurting your case in my mind. You think it's only *fair* for AMD to replace any and all CPUs damaged for any reason. I don't. The warranty stipulates what constitutes a damaged CPU (don't have the warranty at hand to give it here).

Bottom line is, often when a few people abuse a benefit, the majority are hurt in the long run. They are essentially stealing CPUs by intentionally damaging them or by overclocking and then trying to return their fried CPUs.

So, the few people that are actually entitled to replacement of their truly damaged CPUs are hurt by the high propportion of people trying to cheat the company. If there are 25X the number or percentage of returned CPUs in Korea over say, Japan, there must be a reason for it. And the conclusion can only be that a large number of people were trying to scam the company into giving them replacement CPUs.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!

 

[Kennyshin]

You do not know the situation in Korea. Or if you do, you are obviously lying. CutePunk KNOWS it because he's in the Korean communities and that's why I asked it. For clarification.

Maxtor or Fujitsu may have given MPD for MPC or ATA-133 for ATA-100 but AMD NEVER gave any latest processor for returned outdated one for free in Korea. That's what CutePunk didn't clarify. The customers just bought new CPU at a discounted rate and you say that is a liberal warranty? I'd say that's both illegal and greedy. It's also what I call theft and making fun of the customers.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[zengeos]

The customers just bought new CPU at a discounted rate and you say that is a liberal warranty? I'd say that's both illegal and greedy. It's also what I call theft and making fun of the customers.

And even a discounted rate is liberal when all instances are combined and compared to other countries. Basically it's saying bring us your old AMD and we'll give you a hefty discount off the price of a new one even if the old one when working was no longer even worth the amount we're discounting for you.

Either way, AMD loses BIG time through abuse by a few.

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!

 

[Kennyshin]

Or maybe AMD is lying with the number without revealing the true statistics in order to steal money from the customers.

You said with your own words as if AMD were accepting replacement warranties if the CPUs were clearly NOT user damaged but actually defective and I've telling you AMD is refusing virtually 100 percent (well no case of replacement or any kind of service I ever found in fact) for the last few days.

So, if you are a shareholder of AMD of Sunnyvale, CA, why not suggest your company to publicize the data about returned and defective CPUs? We have asked the distributors, resellers, AMD Korea to answer our questions but they just evaded and only answered in inconsistent way. Someone said it's "10x" and some other guy said it's "20x" and now you say it's "25x" when most people would rather believe 1.5x or 2x maybe.

If the number was dramatically exaggerated by AMD, then AMD should be publicly accused of lying to Korean customers and doing harm to their national honor in order for AMD profits which in this case may better be termed stealing.

Sorry, but if you want me stop going saying like this, some guys like you zengeos better stop first. I don't mind I look "hurting my case" personally since this is not my personal case but maybe you do help make AMD look bad which I do not really intend to do.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[Kennyshin]

Selling at price about 50 percent higher than in other countries is a loss to you?

Korean customers did pay more. So publish your company's complete business data concerning this warranty issue. I will make sure it becomes available to every AMD user in South Korea. If it doesn't require too much time, I'll personally translate all the pages in Korean for no money. Just do it, zengeos. I'd really love to see how much AMD lost or stole from Korea and exactly why.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal

 

[zengeos]

Who are you speaking to here?

So publish your company's complete business data concerning this warranty issue. I will make sure it becomes available to every AMD user in South Korea.

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!