[SOLVED] another "Can you help this noob build a DAW Computer" thread

[cosmicwarrior]

Greetings,
I know that this type of question gets asked a million times, but considering the fact that everything changes each year, I will venture to ask again. I know a bit about computers, but building one is a different task, with all of the variables that are available nowadays, and I’m always foggy on certain things that may be simple.My plea for help here is mainly concerning a motherboard that is best for sound quality and compatibility. I will be using this PC for music only and I do not need the top of the line most expensive parts. My budget is $1000, or maybe a bit more. Although I will be spending most of my time with samplers (I do have a ton of libraries, Kontakt and soft synths)and recording most stuff “in the box” I will also be recording multitracks (large drum set and synths)on Cubase 8. I use an older Phonic Fire wire mixer for live stuff, so I will need a slot for an old school FW card with TI chip. I have an idea of most of the components I want, including a Core i7, 3 Samsung SSD’s (500G, 1TB, 1TB) for boot drive/programs, libraries, projects. An EVGA 750 watt PS, at least 16 Gigs of Ram (maybe ripjaws?), a CD/DVD writer, I want a nice video card, but not real expensive, since its not really necessary for most music programs.
Like I mentioned, if anyone could suggest a motherboard, that is has no issues with FW, with quality sound and minimal noise, that would be nice. I’m not sure about the cpu coolers, either.
I got a few questions .Noise generated by fans, etc. will affect only live monitoring? In the box recordings are not affected, right? I’m kind of confused about where the sound “quality” actually starts? Would that be the motherboard? When I’m just composing and recording synths directly (without the mixer on) is there a difference in sound? Do I actually need to worry about a sound card, if I’m recording directly OR using the mixer?
I am tired and I probably didn’t present these questions properly, but anyway. Thanks in Advance for any help.

https://soundcloud.com/cosmic-warrior

 

[justin.m.beauvais]

Sound quality starts at the sound controller chip. If the chip is crap, then the audio is crap. However, there are a few things that can even ruin a good sound chip. The first and most important thing is isolation. Without isolation and shielding the best sound chip will have noise. The next thing that can ruin sound quality is a bad amplifier. A bad amplifier can clip audio, over or under drive it, introduce noise, or even just mess with the signal itself by not being able to switch fast enough for the input signal.

The good news is that most sound chips these days are pretty reasonable. You'll have to do some research to see what is right for you. Now, the people who are really into audio don't use motherboard sound at all. They either run a sound card, or an external DAC and AMP. Sound card being the medium in terms of quality and price, and a good DAC and AMP being the best and highest priced.

At your budget I'd go with a good sound card, but that can eat between 1/10 to 1/5 of your budget. Now, what inputs you need will heavily drive your selection here. If you only need basic inputs and outputs you can get a reasonable sound card for $60-$100. If you need more specialty inputs and outputs the price is going to go up.

I can't really tell you what to get, everyone has their own preferences when it comes to sound and it is an intensely personal debate that gets people called mean names. I'm partial to the Creative product stack. I still have an old PCI Audigy 2 ZS Platinum in my HTPC. I like them because I get good audio, not the best possible but good nonetheless, and good game support.

So, recap, the further you can get the audio away from the motherboard the better. On motherboard has the most chance for interference, cards are generally better quality and less prone to interference, and external solutions offer the best in terms of isolation and generally justify themselves with good audio chips too.

For "in the box" audio manipulation in software, the sound device only matters for output, what you are listening to. Encoding direct to files is going to be a CPU job, not the audio device. You don't need to worry about things like interference with that.

For your PC, your specs are kind of high for the budget, and with a need for audio the average gaming builds are out of the question.

So, I'm going to have to give this a little thought. I'll get back to you with a potential system build.

 

[The prime mediocre]

I'll second justin.m.beauvais's advice: get away from the motherboard. If you use an external audio interface (USB/FireWire/Thunderbolt) (or a DAC + amp combo, though that's more of an audiophile thing) you don't have to worry about an integrated or discrete internal sound card. You're going to have more input options, and it's easier to swap out.

This mainboard is reasonably well-featured and has two legacy PCI slots for your FireWire card.

Sound generated by equipment won't interfere within the PC's components. When your monitors are plugged into the motherboard's 3.5mm jack, you submit to the internal sound card's failings.

I made a list of parts that might satisfy you. There's room in there for a decent external audio setup, with a couple of compromises. Three SSDs and an i7 is out of budget. You could drop the CPU down as far as the i3-8100 and probably get by. I added a quiet Noctua CPU cooler. This month, Samsung is launching an inexpensive SATA SSD for bulk storage (the 860 QVO) based on cheaper flash (QLC NAND). It's likely other manufacturers will follow suit, and you'll be able to get a 2TB SSD for ~$200 sometime next year. 750W is far higher than necessary, and there is no benefit to having spare PSU wattage. The 400W-550W range is where you want to look. The list I made has an (expensive, high-quality) fan-less PSU. That, the quiet CPU cooler, the lack of spinning hard drives, and the sound-dampened Fractal Design Define R5 should mean very little noise output.

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Hey Guys, Thanks for the info. I'm in a hurry right now but I will be back with more questions!

https://soundcloud.com/cosmic-warrior

 

[justin.m.beauvais]

Ok, I went a little over your budget for a few reasons, but here is the system.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Core i3-8350K 4 GHz Quad-Core Processor ($169.00 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: CRYORIG - H7 49 CFM CPU Cooler ($37.90 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Gigabyte - Z370P D3 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($99.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($99.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung - 860 Evo 500 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($72.00 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate - Barracuda 2 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($54.99 @ Newegg Business)
Video Card: Gigabyte - Radeon RX 570 4 GB Gaming 4G Video Card ($149.99 @ Newegg Business)
Case: Cooler Master - MasterBox E500L ATX Mid Tower Case ($49.21 @ Walmart)
Power Supply: SeaSonic - FOCUS Gold 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($50.87 @ B&H)
Optical Drive: LG - GH24NSC0 DVD/CD Writer ($18.88 @ OutletPC)
Sound Card: Creative Labs - ZXR 24-bit 192 kHz Sound Card ($217.99 @ OutletPC)
Other: VANTEC 3-Port FireWire 400 PCIe Host Card Model UGT-FW200 ($20.80 @ Amazon)
Other: Intel Optane Memory Module 32 GB PCIe M.2 80mm MEMPEK1W032GAXT ($39.99 @ Newegg Business)
Total: $1081.60
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-12-13 18:56 EST-0500

First, I went with the i3 8350K because your applications will be a lot better off with more speed than cores. The 4 cores at 4GHz clock is going to be great for audio encoding as it is usually lightly threaded work. I went with the Cryorig H7 so that you'll have good cooling and some overclocking headroom if you feel the need for that. I also went with an inexpensive Z370 motherboard to enable overclocking if you wanted to do that. I put 16 GB of RAM in there because I couldn't fit 32GB into the budget. The 3 SSDs were not fitting into the budget, so I went with the next best thing. A 500 GB Samsung SSD of the 860 EVO and a 2 TB Seagate hard drive with Optane acceleration. It will give you SSD like load times for applications on the hard drive.

For solid gaming performance I put an RX 570 as it is a great mid range option and simply the best bang for the buck right now. The Coolermaster case is just a case. I thought it looked nice. The Seasonic PSU is plenty for the system and very good build quality so it will cause less interference than other options. The DVD/CD burner is an LG, so it is going to be fine.

For your sound card I went with the Creative Labs Soundblaster ZXR for its great audio and plethora of inputs and outputs. To finish it off a 3 port Firewire card that offers 2 external and an internal ports, with a power connector for power over Firewire.

If you need to save a few bucks you can go with an i3 8100 and a B360 motherboard without losing too much performance and drop the cooler as the i3 8100 comes with an ok-ish one. That should land you right around $1000, but this system is going to be quite bit better.

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Thanks again for the suggestions. Like I mentioned, maybe my budget could be a bit more. Possibly $1500 or even more if I wait and gather the parts first. I'll be back later with some more questions. Cheers

 

[tennis2]

As far as the DAW, Techreport is the only review site that I know of that runs DAW Bench.
See Review Here/u]

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Thanks People, I am starting to narrow it down. Since I have so many questions, I have a tendency to want to ask them all at the same time and then my mind gets overwhelmed and I can't remember them all !! So I decided that I'm going to ask about one component at a time. Starting with the processor. Is there really a big advantage to 6 cores vs. 4? What are the differences in the models? (coffee lake, etc.?) Should I worry about the GHz?

 

[justin.m.beauvais]

In applications like video editing and, to a lesser degree, gaming, having 6 cores is going to make the system faster. You'll be able to do more things at once as well. In audio editing the work tends to be lightly threaded, as in, it doesn't use many cores. When encoding audio files single threaded speed matters. That is why I went with the i3 8350K. It only has 4 cores, but those 4 cores are pretty quick at 4 GHz. Nothing in the price bracket comes close at stock speeds and if we take into account overclocking, the 8350K will hit 4.5GHz easily. Some people have hit 5 GHz on them, but your mileage may vary on that front.

Speaking about the models there are a few things to consider. Intel has 3 recent generations of CPUs that can be considered and a bunch of older stuff that is still viable, but not recommended due to age and support. Skylake refresh (Kaby Lake, 7th Gen), Skylake re-refresh (Coffee Lake, some of them, 8th Gen), and Skylake re-re-refresh (Coffee Lake again but faster, 9th Gen). AMD has 2 generations of CPUs on the market that are relevant and are the only CPUs you should be looking at from them, and I can NOT stress that enough. Ryzen has 2 generations Zen (1000 series) and Zen+ (2000 series).

The designations i3, i5, i7, and i9 are Intel's "performance" stacks. GENERALLY the i3 is for entry level, i5 is for mid level, i7 is for performance, and i9 is for people with more money than sense. AMD's Ryzen follows a similar pattern Ryzen 3 for entry level, Ryzen 5 for mid level, and Ryzen 7 for performance. There isn't a Ryzen 9 yet but there will be with the 3000 series if rumors are to be believed and that is going to be for people with less money to spend than Intel charges but still have more of it than sense.

Your system is budget limited, so bang for the buck is the most important thing. If you were gaming then at your budget the Ryzen 5 2600 would be the best deal to go with. It is good for gaming, great for productivity, and it wouldn't be BAD for audio workstation tasks, but the i3 8350K is going to encode faster. There is the i5 8400 in this price range as well. It is great for gaming, good for productivity, and also wouldn't be bad for audio workstations, but again the 8350K is clocked higher so it would be faster.

Did that actually answer any questions?

 

[Corwin65]

For Music Production I'd stay away from that SoundBlaster.

Go with an actual audio interface. https://www.guitarcenter.com/Audio-Interfaces.gc

Good price above on the 570 but if not gaming at all you could go with something cheaper as it'd be wasted on DAW work.

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Hi Justin,
Thanks for all of the info. I was thinking the i.7 because I'm hoping this will be my last PC for awhile and so I won't have to worry about upgrading ever again...hopefully!! There should be a difference between the i.3 and i.7 in loading massive libraries and playing large multis without glitches, right? Am I wrong to assume that the i.7 should be considerably faster? Maybe just the 4 core version of i.7 would be adequate?

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Corwin, As I mentioned, I have an 18 channel Firewire mixer. Doesnt that do the job as the audio interface?

 

[justin.m.beauvais]

Hi Justin,
Thanks for all of the info. I was thinking the i.7 because I'm hoping this will be my last PC for awhile and so I won't have to worry about upgrading ever again...hopefully!! There should be a difference between the i.3 and i.7 in loading massive libraries and playing large multis without glitches, right? Am I wrong to assume that the i.7 should be considerably faster? Maybe just the 4 core version of i.7 would be adequate?

As far as loading large libraries, the RAM will be the most stressed component on that one. Processing audio is remarkably easy for the CPU most of the time. I mean, these are the components that we ask to encode and decode video during video editing. If you are looking for a PC for longevity and doing multiple things then that is slightly different than a dedicated audio workstation. In that case I'd recommend an i5 or Ryzen 5. Mostly I'd recommend the Ryzen 5. Audio encoding loves fast CPUs, but generally will run on anything. If you don't mind waiting a little longer then the Ryzen 5 is going to be your best experience... mostly because you can play games while encoding. With its 12 threads it has the power to do that with little issue. I recommended the i3 because it is simply the fastest for what you said you wanted to do and it fit in your given budget. Well, a Ryzen 5 2600 fits in your budget as well and would be a great every day processor. The i7 is a fast and powerful CPU... but so expensive.

 

[Corwin65]

Corwin, As I mentioned, I have an 18 channel Firewire mixer. Doesnt that do the job as the audio interface?

I brought it up as you had selected an expensive SoundBlaster card which would not be needed with the use of an audio interface. As you have your mixer, you should not need it.

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Corwin, As I mentioned, I have an 18 channel Firewire mixer. Doesnt that do the job as the audio interface?

I brought it up as you had selected an expensive SoundBlaster card which would not be needed with the use of an audio interface. As you have your mixer, you should not need it.

Thanks for your help Corwin. I didn't select the SB card, I think someone suggested it. You know how when you learn programs and stuff by trial and error, there is always the simple things that elude you? Also, I have problems sometimes in putting the questions to words. I'm still a bit foggy on this topic even though you guys are trying to help. Well, I'm finally learning a bit on how the audio signal works in a computer system. So, what I learned recently and please correct me if I am wrong is that when you are editing, or recording samplers and soft synths directly, you do not have to worry about any noise problems and quality?.. depending on quality of MB audio that is. When using a stock, generic computer sound card, it does not matter if the signal is going out to an interface? And any audio signal coming out of the computer will be subject to interference and noise, but this is just the signal for monitoring and it will not affect anything when you are actually recording?

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Hi Justin,
Thanks for all of the info. I was thinking the i.7 because I'm hoping this will be my last PC for awhile and so I won't have to worry about upgrading ever again...hopefully!! There should be a difference between the i.3 and i.7 in loading massive libraries and playing large multis without glitches, right? Am I wrong to assume that the i.7 should be considerably faster? Maybe just the 4 core version of i.7 would be adequate?

As far as loading large libraries, the RAM will be the most stressed component on that one. Processing audio is remarkably easy for the CPU most of the time. I mean, these are the components that we ask to encode and decode video during video editing. If you are looking for a PC for longevity and doing multiple things then that is slightly different than a dedicated audio workstation. In that case I'd recommend an i5 or Ryzen 5. Mostly I'd recommend the Ryzen 5. Audio encoding loves fast CPUs, but generally will run on anything. If you don't mind waiting a little longer then the Ryzen 5 is going to be your best experience... mostly because you can play games while encoding. With its 12 threads it has the power to do that with little issue. I recommended the i3 because it is simply the fastest for what you said you wanted to do and it fit in your given budget. Well, a Ryzen 5 2600 fits in your budget as well and would be a great every day processor. The i7 is a fast and powerful CPU... but so expensive.

Well, I probably can afford it if I wait a bit longer. I also forgot to mention that I do graphics too (Photoshop) and a bit of video editing, but nothing heavy. When I said I will only be using for Music, I meant I won't be getting online with it. I don't fully understand all of the terminology but from what I am getting from you is that I could get by with the i.3. I appreciate that you are trying to save me money, but as I mentioned, I want this build to not be outdated so fast. Can you inform me of any other advantages, as far as applications that the i.7 has over the i.3? Gracias!

 

[Corwin65]

Corwin, As I mentioned, I have an 18 channel Firewire mixer. Doesnt that do the job as the audio interface?

I brought it up as you had selected an expensive SoundBlaster card which would not be needed with the use of an audio interface. As you have your mixer, you should not need it.

Thanks for your help Corwin. I didn't select the SB card, I think someone suggested it. You know how when you learn programs and stuff by trial and error, there is always the simple things that elude you? Also, I have problems sometimes in putting the questions to words. I'm still a bit foggy on this topic even though you guys are trying to help. Well, I'm finally learning a bit on how the audio signal works in a computer system. So, what I learned recently and please correct me if I am wrong is that when you are editing, or recording samplers and soft synths directly, you do not have to worry about any noise problems and quality?.. depending on quality of MB audio that is. When using a stock, generic computer sound card, it does not matter if the signal is going out to an interface? And any audio signal coming out of the computer will be subject to interference and noise, but this is just the signal for monitoring and it will not affect anything when you are actually recording?

When you use an audio interface it bypasses the onboard soundcard. Your audio interface IS the soundcard.

For example, I have my audio interface connected, my Scarlet 2i2, when I play a game, it uses the soundcard in the interface to make sound. Same thing with any audio. If I disconnect my interface, then my onboard sound kicks in.

Hope that helps.

 

[justin.m.beauvais]

Well, for twice the price the i7 gives you more cores, more speed, and will be more than enough CPU for anything you want to do. The 8700K is a 6 core CPU with hyperthreading so you get 12 threads. The other option is the newer 9700K which is an 8 core CPU without hyperthreading, but it is clocked higher so there is no performance loss from the lack of hyperthreading. If you are building a system that you want to last a while I'd go with the 9700K, but it does cost more as Intel is having a bit of a CPU shortage right now.

Your other option in this performance bracket is the Ryzen 7 2700X. It is an 8 core/16 thread beast of a CPU. It isn't clocked as high as the 9700K but it multitasks better thanks to all those threads. It can also be had for considerably less money than either i7. In gaming the 8700K and 9700K beat the Ryzen, but in many productivity tasks the Ryzen is superior. That said, Photoshop is not one of those productivity tasks, BUT the performance you gain going to the i7 doesn't really justify the price difference, so it is a matter of paying a larger percentage more for a smaller percentage of performance. In over all benchmarks you are getting 14% more performance from the i7 9700K over the 2700X, but you are paying $80 more (actually closer to $100 more looking at Newegg right now).

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Corwin, As I mentioned, I have an 18 channel Firewire mixer. Doesnt that do the job as the audio interface?

I brought it up as you had selected an expensive SoundBlaster card which would not be needed with the use of an audio interface. As you have your mixer, you should not need it.

Thanks for your help Corwin. I didn't select the SB card, I think someone suggested it. You know how when you learn programs and stuff by trial and error, there is always the simple things that elude you? Also, I have problems sometimes in putting the questions to words. I'm still a bit foggy on this topic even though you guys are trying to help. Well, I'm finally learning a bit on how the audio signal works in a computer system. So, what I learned recently and please correct me if I am wrong is that when you are editing, or recording samplers and soft synths directly, you do not have to worry about any noise problems and quality?.. depending on quality of MB audio that is. When using a stock, generic computer sound card, it does not matter if the signal is going out to an interface? And any audio signal coming out of the computer will be subject to interference and noise, but this is just the signal for monitoring and it will not affect anything when you are actually recording?

When you use an audio interface it bypasses the onboard soundcard. Your audio interface IS the soundcard.

For example, I have my audio interface connected, my Scarlet 2i2, when I play a game, it uses the soundcard in the interface to make sound. Same thing with any audio. If I disconnect my interface, then my onboard sound kicks in.

Hope that helps.

I guess what I'm not understanding is the fact that the interface is connected to the PC via mini pin on soundcard, so the "original" signal is still exiting from the MB to the output mini pin connector? So, how is it that the "original" signal get's bypassed? (Is that a real question?) Ha!!

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Well, for twice the price the i7 gives you more cores, more speed, and will be more than enough CPU for anything you want to do. The 8700K is a 6 core CPU with hyperthreading so you get 12 threads. The other option is the newer 9700K which is an 8 core CPU without hyperthreading, but it is clocked higher so there is no performance loss from the lack of hyperthreading. If you are building a system that you want to last a while I'd go with the 9700K, but it does cost more as Intel is having a bit of a CPU shortage right now.

Your other option in this performance bracket is the Ryzen 7 2700X. It is an 8 core/16 thread beast of a CPU. It isn't clocked as high as the 9700K but it multitasks better thanks to all those threads. It can also be had for considerably less money than either i7. In gaming the 8700K and 9700K beat the Ryzen, but in many productivity tasks the Ryzen is superior. That said, Photoshop is not one of those productivity tasks, BUT the performance you gain going to the i7 doesn't really justify the price difference, so it is a matter of paying a larger percentage more for a smaller percentage of performance. In over all benchmarks you are getting 14% more performance from the i7 9700K over the 2700X, but you are paying $80 more (actually closer to $100 more looking at Newegg right now).

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Thanks for all of the info Justin. I'll have to think about it. In the meantime I will just mention that I was originally thinking about just the regular 4-core i.7. My main priority with this PC will be recording and playing soft synths. Would there really be a significant difference in speed and in synth polyphony (how many notes/multis I can play at the same time), between the i.7 4-core and the i.7 6-core? If it's not really a big difference in speed that I can probably just get by with the 4-core? and what about the GHz? Is this an important factor?

 

[Corwin65]

Corwin, As I mentioned, I have an 18 channel Firewire mixer. Doesnt that do the job as the audio interface?

I brought it up as you had selected an expensive SoundBlaster card which would not be needed with the use of an audio interface. As you have your mixer, you should not need it.

Thanks for your help Corwin. I didn't select the SB card, I think someone suggested it. You know how when you learn programs and stuff by trial and error, there is always the simple things that elude you? Also, I have problems sometimes in putting the questions to words. I'm still a bit foggy on this topic even though you guys are trying to help. Well, I'm finally learning a bit on how the audio signal works in a computer system. So, what I learned recently and please correct me if I am wrong is that when you are editing, or recording samplers and soft synths directly, you do not have to worry about any noise problems and quality?.. depending on quality of MB audio that is. When using a stock, generic computer sound card, it does not matter if the signal is going out to an interface? And any audio signal coming out of the computer will be subject to interference and noise, but this is just the signal for monitoring and it will not affect anything when you are actually recording?

When you use an audio interface it bypasses the onboard soundcard. Your audio interface IS the soundcard.

For example, I have my audio interface connected, my Scarlet 2i2, when I play a game, it uses the soundcard in the interface to make sound. Same thing with any audio. If I disconnect my interface, then my onboard sound kicks in.

Hope that helps.

I guess what I'm not understanding is the fact that the interface is connected to the PC via mini pin on soundcard, so the "original" signal is still exiting from the MB to the output mini pin connector? So, how is it that the "original" signal get's bypassed? (Is that a real question?) Ha!!

An audio interface is a sound card.

When it is connected you have the option of using THAT sound card instead of the onboard sound card. Which should always be the choice.

 

[Corwin65]

The interface connects via usb or FireWire as some still use directly to the computer not any onboard or Any other sound card.

 

[cosmicwarrior]

The interface connects via usb or FireWire as some still use directly to the computer not any onboard or Any other sound card.

I knew that! It's just that I haven't hooked up my FW mixer in so long that I didn't even think of it. Thanks for clearing that up for me again.

 

[cosmicwarrior]

Hy Guys, I'm back! You know how you never have money at the right time? Well, I only have $500 right now and I decided to go ahead and try to get the processor, MB, and memory first. At the risk of taking awhile to get the rest later. If I don't spend the money now, other things will come up. Investigating a bit, I have come to the conclusion that I would rather get the Ryzen 7. All of the different options, models, GHz's, etc. have got me a bit overwhelmed. So, again I ask for advice. Like I mentioned, this PC will not be for gaming, mainly for music recording and editing and for Samplers. I do tend to use some heavy multis in Kontakt that are loaded with alot of sounds. I see many options and my main question is, do I need to worry about the GHz specs, and the different models? I was looking at this one..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Ryzen-...847601?hash=item2abd9d9531:g:Y7cAAOSwMKxcCC67

This seller has sold alot of these with good feedback. Do you guys think this one is ok for what I need or should I get a different 7? (do I need 7 at all, would the 5 work just as well)

Are there any advantages in the other 7 models? Is the included fan adequate?

What MB would be good for the Ryzen 7

Thanks for any suggestions and help