Anyone else noticed a problem with video card advertisements

[bourgeoisdude]

Recently I've looked on the web at video cards and prices alot. I've noticed a huge problem recently though--most manufacturers don't use the "recommended" specs from NVIDIA, and ATI cards for some reason one X800 128MB AGP card is completely different from another X800 128MB AGP card and such.

NVIDIA is the worst but ATI is doing it too. A PCIe 256MB 6600GT should have what specs, for example? Well--should have DDR3 memory, 128-bit memory access, etc. Look here...the OEM specs do not match...the memory is DDR2. Also look here...a 6600GT with a 256-bit interface???

ATI X800 comes in so many dozens of flavors as well. It's a new tactic that both vendors are using and it is working. Put a GT behind the 6600 and strip it until it sells the cheapest--then you get all the sales. The GT means nothing IMO if it is not GDDR3 memory though! X800 means nothing if it can be DDR, DDR2, GDDR3, 64-bit/128-bit/256-bit, and have all different GPU speeds. THIS SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTABLE!

I realize this has happened for a long time and started a long time ago, but just look at my video card below! I was duped into getting a crummy card because it had "6600" in it and 256MB video memory! Even here in the forums we can't even cut through the fog, how many newbie gamers are getting screwed? This is unethical!

I didn't give every example because there are too many to give. Deception is everywhere in the PC gaming business. Does anybody feel this way besides me?

 

[swifty_morgan]

It is a pain in the ass. There are a few vendors who had lower prices, but did not provide enough information, making me buy elsewhere.

Screw them.

After you make your choice, go to the manufacturers website, and check the specs before you purchase.

 

[Dekkard]

Well, I do agree with you, in part at least. But you take reference to technical details at NewEgg....much as I like these guys, their tech specs are commonly erroneous. I bought a 6800GS OC by BFG which was initially described as 16 pixel pipes by them but is only 12 (although admittedly these cards can be easily unlocked to 16 with varied success but this is not the point!). I've seen inaccuracies on a lot of Neweggs products so my only recommendation is to confirm ALL features of your desired products at the manufacturers website, if they do not have a dedicated webpage for the product I would suggest there is probably going to be insufficient after sales support to warrant the purchase in the first place (make print outs of the webpage at the time of purchase too - the whole HDCP support by ATI based cards highlights this fiasco).
As for card partners making substantial changes to reference designs, well, I have to give a little support to these guys - lets face it, do we really believe that reference design products are always all they are cracked up to be? Sure, I have to admit that putting cheap memory on or cutting the memory interface in half is really bad and the board designers should be the ones to say something about it (its their design being abused and the 'good name' of their designs being exploited), but the customer has to take responsibility for looking at the product they are buying to ensure quality. Now, incorrect information on products (or deliberate mislabeling) is a whole other issue and I sincerely hope that this matter is halted soon by some good lawsuits - it is far too easy for PC component manufacturers to get away with these things at the moment. In reality what we need is for strict standards to be met to continue to use the reference design connotation (i.e. minimum standards to comply with 6600GT name - and not just naming it 6600GT Extreme or some other bs). This comes down to Nvidia and ATI, but sadly both seem more interested in the profits of selling their design than what the consumer gets at the end of it.

 

[cleeve]

DDR, DDR2, or DDR3 doesn't matter really, as long as the memory is clocked the same.

A 6600 GT should have 500 Mhz memory. If it's less than 500 Mhz, there's a problem. If not, it's a 6600 GT.

There is no performance difference between DDR, DDR2, or DDR3 at the same speed. If anything, older types of memory usually have lower latencies when run at the same speed as newer stuff.

But if they're peddling a 6600 GT with 400 Mhz memory, then YES, there is a problem.

That card you linked to on top: that's a very specific card, it has TWO 6600 GPUs on it I believe. It's called a 256-bit interface but it's probably cheating because each GPU should have a 128-bit interface to it's 128mb of RAM, for a total of 256mb and '256-bit'

 

[FITCamaro]

The difference is in the overclockability of the memory. GDDR3 can OC a lot more than DDR2. I personally always look at the exact tech specs of what I'm buying to make sure that kind of crap doesn't happen. They do it because they can. It's considered your fault if you didn't do the research.

 

[Heyyou27]

I disagree, however they should make sure to label the specs.

 

[Vokofpolisiekar]

Well, my Gecube advertised 48 pixel pipelines - instead of 48 Pixel Processors... :lol: But imagine the uninformed buying this card, thinking that it is indeed 48ppipelines, and posting the forums with his new found wonder card?

Should I e-mail them and ask where the other 32 pipelines are? 😀

 

[corvetteguy]

yeah i noticed that big time when searching for almost everything that i chose to put in my new build, and its not limited to vid cards, but also processors and other stuff.

for instance, i got a 3700, but there was more than one choice of 3700 on the list, with no description of what anything was. I figured one came with the box, and another came with basics, but you can't really tell, cause it ended up, the cheap one was the box set, which i wouldn't have guessed. And all the pictures are the same, and there are no descriptions.

i found sound cards the worst, cause the description was cut off at a certtain point in all names, and it cut of the different info

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

A little research usually helps clear any of these issues up. Only n00bs get stung, and that's life IMO.

The thing that will be extra confusing is the GF6600DDR2 vs GF6600GTDDR2, only the GF6600DDR2 was ever officially announced.

You're right about there being little/no difference between the DDRs as long as they are at the same speed, but remember DDR2 is F'ed up and HOT, DDR1 uses more overall power to achieve the same speed but like you say does have latency advantages, and DDR3 costs more (but uses less power) and have some other flaw I can't remember right now, and DDR4 is supposed to have the best of all worlds. Then there'll be XDR.

The cycle of life continues.

Naming them different doesn't help either as we saw in the FXs with their Ultra, non-ultra, XT, SE, EP, EPV, LE, ES, Rev.1 Rev.2 etc.

The only answer is to always do your research. An type of rules would likely impeed people like BFG, eVGA and others from overclocking above spec. That kind of restriction over OEM-partners drove Hercules out of the market.

 

[picture_perfect]

can retailers change memory? if nvidia distributes card "x" to parnter evga for example i would think evga could not change basic features like memory. its a p.c.b. - they can only add stuff. where do these variations come from?

 

[Son_of_Blob]

Jaysus wept, this has been going on for years, especially with nVidia cards (I once got stung with an FX5600 that had standard generic motherboard ram instead of video ram...it ran WAY below specs, needless to say, which really hurt as it was all I could afford at the time). nVidia are well aware of this sort of rip-off, will wring their hands and promise to investigate it when informed a "franchised"? manufacturer is selling cards that are not up to their reference specs (usually with substandard memory substituted for ref specs as mine was), but in the long run nothing gets done.

It's really a case of Caveat Emptor (buyer beware) and always will be, though the practice needs to be more widely known and a few firms (especially nVidia) prosecuted by the appropriate regulatory authorites to try and keep a lid on it....

 

[fainis]

indeed there is a huge difference between ddr, ddr2 and ddr3 on video cards ... better gpu should have the support of better memory..and also older gpu could benefit from better memory......
of course and there it is the width of the address bus
i think that you should check before you buy..ask around and see whether somebody else has got that card and they could help you ... many manufacturers are quite simplist when it cames to tehnical documentation.....imagine that you can find a card with a label describing the timings of the video memory :lol:

 

[darkstar782]

nVidia only supplies the GPUs themselves and the design of a 'reference' board, the partners put the chips onto boards and source the memory themselves.

All 6600 chips have the same memory interface, finding 256-bit and 128-bit ones is more than likely a typo on the website, however you WILL find ones that have different amounts of RAM, and DDR1 2 and 3.

For a chip to be classed as a 6600GT, it has to meet certain timings for the GPU, have at least 128mb of DDR2 or better RAM (or was it GDDR3? I forget), and this RAM has to be clocked at least at a minimum speed. There are few GTs with 256mb ram, however with the non-GT, where the RAM is cheaper, the 256mb version is common, as this card is aimed at non techies that will buy a card based upon this. My brother, for example, will not recognise any difference between cards other than amount of ram, and believes any 256mb card will always be faster than a 128mb (his 5800 256mb apparantly owns a 6600GT with 128mb in his mind)

The system appears quite simple to me, the problem comes from people relying on the teh specs on websites such as NewEgg, and I *always* confirm any specs with the manufacturers site.

From what your Sig says, the only thing wrong with your card is that its a 6600 and not a 6600GT, but I wouldnt say you'd been 'duped' into it. You will have seen the 6600 priced alot lower (always a dead giveaway) and you should have known that the GT cards are faster.....

I like the manufacturers having free reign, It allows for innovations like the Dual 6600, Dual 7800 cards we have seen, which, were manufacturers tied to a reference board design and memory, would NEVER have happened.

Flexibility in clock speeds has also allowed the various 'Golden Sample' cards etc with a built in overclock and a warranty supporting that overclock.

Stifiling innovation in order to remove the need for non techies to research their purchases is not a good idea imho, especially as the non-techies normally are not anywhere near as fussed about the performance.

 

[Dekkard]

If my memory serves me right (it often doesn't these days!), nvidia does not actually manufacture their boards but rather sells the design, unlike ATI. If this is true (if somebody here knows differently I'd be glad to be corrected), this would go some way to explain how certain components are being altered (downgraded in particular).

 

[darkstar782]

Yup, they sell the chips and a reference board design, which the makers can completely change if they wish (such as creating cards with 2 GPUs on 😀 )

ATi does similar, but also manufactures its own cards and sells them, which sets more of a refernce point for manufacturers.

 

[corvetteguy]

we're not saying choice is the problem, the mislabeling of products is.

 

[malphadour]

If you go to a manufacturers website (not nvidia or ATI but the actual named brand) you will find the spec there. It isn't difficult at all. You just have to make the effort. The different models and speed clockings are down to the brand not Ati or nVidia.

I'm sorry but I find that your complaint is unfounded and just reeks of being naive (which in itself is no crime).
The 256bit interface on the 6600gt DUO is perfectly legit. This is in effect 2 6600 GT cards SLIed together, however they are fitted on one physical card. Just because you do not know this does not make it misleading. If you wanted to find out more it would take about 5 seconds to do a google search for 6600gt duo and find numerous reviews which actually explained quite clearly what this card is about.
The X800 range to which you refer has lots of models, yes, its called choice. This is seen by the majority as a good thing. X800, then x800gt, then x800gto, then x800gto2, then x800pro, then x800xl, then x800xt then x800xt pe. Not one of these models has a hiden spec, they are all clearly available on numerous manufacturers and review sites.
There may be an occasion (as stated above) where an individual brand makes an error, or a reseller makes an error, in the case of the reseller it could then be classed as a misrepresentaion of the goods and you could then excersize your statatuory rights with the reseller, and in some countries you can also do this if the manufacturer has incorrectly advertised a product, but what you can't do is complain about ATI or nVidia supplying a choice.

If you want to use an analogy, lets look at cars. Now they are a fairly duy to day thing so we all know about them, don't we. So you buy 2 cars both with 3 litre engines. One has 200hp, the other has 300hp. Oooh nobody told me, thats not right, they should all be the same!!! How dare manufacturers produce something with a similar description that performs different to another manufacturer!!!

That sounded silly didn't it, but its no different than your initial point.

By the way, ATI don't make their own cards, they are manufactured in the main by TUL (Powercolor) or Sapphire on their behalf.

 

[corvetteguy]

i didn't START the thread, i was just telling the other guy what it was about since he had the wrong idea.

 

[Dekkard]

If you go to a manufacturers website (not nvidia or ATI but the actual named brand) you will find the spec there. It isn't difficult at all. You just have to make the effort. The different models and speed clockings are down to the brand not Ati or nVidia.

I'm sorry but I find that your complaint is unfounded and just reeks of being naive (which in itself is no crime).

Malphadour, I agree with what you are getting at here as I pointed out earlier, it IS critical to read the manufacturers website for full spec details....but, if others complaint was naive I'm afraid to say your faith in full disclosure from those websites is perhaps unfounded. If you take a look around at different sites (even the more highly regarded like BFG and such) I am sure you'll find products there with incomplete details on specifications (I'm not saying all by any means tho!). I feel deeply concerned by this, the cynic in me always looks at the worst intentions of people and companies....that is my problem. But I just wish to emphasize, you really have to do a lot of hunting online - even if you are a tech wiz you clearly can't rely on the reference design reviews (often preceeding any retail release) to provide you with an accurate picture of what you are getting. ALways let some other sucker by the new products first!

 

[corvetteguy]

k bud, way to copy the other guy's idea.

yeah they're based on core specs but half the time they don't tell you ALL the specs, which is what i'm getting at.

If someone uses the car metaphore one more time, you have obviously run out of arguements.

 

[corvetteguy]

yes but lots of times the desription will end here...

Radeon® X800 GTO 256MB GDDRIII + DVI-I +
OR
Radeon® X800 GTO 256MB GDDRIII + DVI-I +

and the only difference will be the prices.

 

[Dekkard]

Hey Corvetteguy, I have just been waiting for someone to use the X800GTO to Ferrari 308 GTO analogy....but damn, no one!!! 😀
Sadly, Geo never made a Ti200 metro to analogize with my old geforce3

You're right about the lack of card specifics, it seems that memory and core clock speeds are getting presented now pretty well, but a lot of the other elements (bit interface, DDR version, pipe counts) don't always get properly shown. In the case of nvidia products there is a huge great hole now in weather or not you are getting H.264 support and all that jazz. You really shouldn't have to track down every site discussing the board you are interested in to gleam all the important facts but I feel forced to do that on every graphics card I seriously consider buying these days.

 

[moparman390]

I always try and check the specs at the manufacturer's website.

Example:

When I was looking at Newegg for my new video card eVGA had four or five 7800GT models, all looked mostly the same but had different prices. A quick check of the pdf datasheets at the eVGA website told me the specs por each model number.

This happens with all hardware. Always check the manufacturer's website, if the manufacturer does not have details, stay away from the product.

 

[malphadour]

Ok, not once have I ever not been able to get the exact spec of any graphics card that I have bought, and I buy a lot of graphics cards. (lot = approx 50 a year, I do a lot of building)

I totally disagree with your argument about manufacturers websites. I have once seen Abit post an incorrect spec on a card and it was changed 1 week later.

It isn't a minefield, it isn't confusing, you just have to look properly, and before you say that its confusing or difficult, thats life. If you have a big choice, you will have to do a lot of reading.

 

[Dekkard]

It isn't a minefield, it isn't confusing, you just have to look properly, and before you say that its confusing or difficult, thats life. If you have a big choice, you will have to do a lot of reading.

I think you've hit the point we have been getting at Malphadour, you do have to do a lot of reading. I don't claim that you can't find the information, only that the requisite details are not necessarily in the places they should be - the marketing details for that given product (whether that be at the etailer end or the manufacturers). The purchaser should be able to glean all accurate information regarding a product (all those pertinent to functionality at least) from the place of purchase, obviously some etailers are less inclined to fill their website with superfluous information and skimp on details and then the purchaser is forced to go to the manufacturers site, if this still skimps then you really have to start testing google for all its worth!
One thing I really would like to see for video cards (the same as some good mobo manufacturers do) is a detailing of major compatibility issues or at least a link from the manufacturers site to a forum or such like with this info. Nvidia card manufacturers have sold and continue to sell 6800GS and 7 series AGP cards out but certain mobo chipsets may never be able to fully support these cards. If I was spending $300 on a 7800GS and then found it wouldn't work on my PC (which meets all documented system requirements) I'd be very pissed. Particularly when made aware of the fact that the manufacturer and nvidia both knew of the problem and that the card would definitely NOT work in your rig! How about that for a rant! ;D