Aquamark 3 is there a place for it anymore?

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jun 25, 2003

The technical document/info for <A HREF="http://www.aquamark3.com/" target="_new">Aquamark3</A> has been released. And despite all the new features the question is: Is it really rlevant anymore? It will be enjoyable to run just like everything else, but can even a new benchmark hold any weight after the first driver release following it's introduction? I don't know.

I know this has been rehashed many times in here but I don't expect a response I just think that it's worth pondering. Looks nice though.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

GeneticWeapon · Jun 25, 2003

I heard that it's supposed to test DX9 functionality like no other benchmark has before. I think it's gunna be great. They wont release it to the public though, just like the last one.

"We need fangirls" - dhlucke

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jun 26, 2003

Yeah, I can't wait to see what the reaction of the reviewers is, I'm also curious to see what ATI and NV's reactions will be, and whether Auquamark will explicitely state 'no optimizations' in their release notes unlike Futuremark (which is why they can't call them cheats or say that anything is wrong).

Ahhh I'd love to see it though, love the visuals of AquaNox, but not so much the gameplay. I can only imagine what they COULD do to tes the cards. Hopefully someone like THG or Maximum PC will supply a video sequence, demo or something. I'd also like to see how it reacts on closely related products lik the 9500/9600/5600 and se if it DOES kill the 5200 like most of us expect to happen in tough DX9 sequences.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

eden · Jun 26, 2003

The thing is this is a game, opts are allowed anytime. Only in synthetic benches where you want to test RAW capabilities should you apply such restriction. To do it on Aquamark is STUPID, it'd be like telling people whenever they do a timedemo, Pentium 4 SSE is disabled, geForce Occlusion Culling is not allowed, shadow techniques are back to raw unoptimized.
Stupid because it doesn't even reflect the game it benches!

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:

davepermen · Jun 26, 2003

there is no difference between aquamark and 3dmark. but yes there is place for both of them. it doesnt mather if it is a game behind or not. 3dmark is a game behind, too. just not one to buy.

its a predefined scene, with predefined behaviour => its cheatable.

but yes, its just another contest. there is just no place for non-fair-behaving companies. too bad they will not go away.

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com

eden · Jun 26, 2003

No I disagree here. 3dMark is specified as a raw no-optimization benchmark. It tests how cards can react when they are subject to the most basic and aggressive scenes to see just how far future unoptimized games can be played on them. (see Commanche 4 and Splinter Cell).
Aquamark is actually a game behind and it NEEDS to show you if you can play the game or not, it isn't designed to stress a card with no optimization.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jun 26, 2003

The thing is Aquamark itself is a benchmark, yes it is related to a real game, but it is still primarily (only?) a benchmark. The question will be how exactly they approach 'tweaks'/optimizations. Yes it would be stupid to turn of SSE/MMX/3DNOW!/etc however I'm not saying turn everything off, they may simply define what CAN be turned on (I expect all the above). They may have stricter rules of use than Futuremark, and part of Futuremarks probelem was in NOT defining exactly what WAS a cheat (main reason they backed down with their strong language). So for the Aquamark team, an early 'rules' paper/statement would set the ground rules, and they would be much more able to remain relevant since they would have control over their code. The GAME itself could still be optimized, but they would determine what happens vis-a-vi the benchmark.

Actually after fleshing this out, maybe there is hope. But it really does hinge on the integrity of benchmarking guidelines IMO. If there are stated rules and they are broken then they (chip/driver makers [emphasis on driver makers within the chip making company]) would be just as liable as hackers and pirates in the courts. You might still get optimizaed 'hack/independant' drivers like the Omegas, but they would not be used for the benchmarking, it would strictly be the reference/released chip/card maker's drivers that were used in tests for the baseline and then the reviewers might be given the freedom of using the 'hacks' but it would be clearly stated, and the benifit would not go directly to the chip/card makers.

Hmmm sounds like a plan. But maybe I'm just dreaming.

Very Tired, could be Dreaming!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

eden · Jun 27, 2003

Aquamark uses the same code as Aquanox.
Now if they use a rail system, and the company optimizes for that, then yes it is a cheat.
If they optimize the code of graphics in there, that will affect the game, and therefore I fail to see why it is a cheat and should be forbidden. Massive is looking for ways to show people their game is playable well and wants to SELL not give them cheap results to turn us away. None of us would buy Doom III if it played at 30FPS on a 9800PRO 3.2GHZ P4 system at 1024*768.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:

davepermen · Jun 27, 2003

you know eden, it doesn't mather if its a game or not. its just an application running a predefined scene, calling some calls on the gpu. it DOES NOT MATHER WHAT ITS BASED ON!!!. it is exactly the same as 3dmark, and exactly the same way cheatable. its a benchmark, what the **** do you give about performance? its to COMPARE performance, not to have performance. (means you never need to be able to have good fps.. even www.realstorm.com is a game engine.. well, its used for a game, and usable for games.. still, the benchmark is just that, a benchmark).

please dudes, learn that games have nothing special. and yes, 3dmark sometimes did not solved something the ideal way. so what? seen this done a lot actually. i prefer the gameengine of 3dmark over splinter-cells one for example. 3dmark runs bether.

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jun 27, 2003

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. As long as it is only optimizations that are for the game. However just like you can ADD optimizations if you recognize it IS a benchmark, you canprobably take them away with the same recognition. So like was mentioned before, run one run with and one run without. Thus put optimized vs. non-optimized, thus highlighting the hardware AND the drivers using the same test.

It'll be fun I tells ya!

I can't wait to see what the FIRST run on unoptimized cards shows. Just like 3Dmk03 exposed a large gap in the GF3/4 armour when put up against the R8500. Yes the GF4tis are still better cards IMO, but it was a nice bit of, 'Oh whats going on here?' 'Weird, wonder why that is' which gave us a little more insight into the way the two cards worked (differently). Perhaps then we WILL find glaring holes that could only be expained by optimizations, and they may favour the 'underdog' (MAtrox, do I dare to dream? Nah not based on the LAST Aquanox!). It will be interesting to see.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

endyen · Jun 27, 2003

What I would like to see is a statement from a site which states " We will not benchmark any video card that has been optimized in any way for the benchmarks we are using. If we find that an optimization has been included in a score, we will pull that score, and include a statement in our results as to why." That site will be good for all of us. We deserve and require that support for our support.

Borsti · Jun 27, 2003

Well, I showed an early beta version of Aquamark3 in german GIGA TV. There´s a capture available on the web:

http://www12.tomshardware.com/images/giga_help-borsti3.avi

it´s 62MB DivX and 30 minutes long. The Aquamark3 part begins at 22:20 minutes.

It shows the demo mode including music of Aquamark3 beta from march 2003! So the final version looks a bit different.

Lars

eden · Jun 27, 2003

You know, I just understood what you are trying to say. I would like to rectify what I said and agree with you.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jun 28, 2003

Cool, Thanks!

But it's in GERMAN! I had to get my Grandma to watch to tell me what the Heck they're saying! Just kidding!

Yeah, but 2 years of German school [in Boeblingen] just doesn't help!

<A HREF="http://www12.tomshardware.com/images/giga_help-borsti3.avi" target="_new">HERE's</A> the link made clickable for some.

BTW, even with the VideoSmoothing/Fullstream, OYE it's blurry on my 9600Pro @ 1600x1200. HeHe!

I love the set I wish it were MY basement!

BTW, I USED to have hair like you, now it looks more like the hosts (shorter even).
Ahhh, memories, Back in the old Metallica days.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jun 28, 2003

It would be the Drivers not the card that have the optimizations, but yeah that's another approach that might work.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

endyen · Jun 28, 2003

While the Driver has the optimization, it's the video card that gets optimized. A question of semantics,or just a bump in hopes the idea catches on?

eden · Jun 28, 2003

Like a Pentium 4 has SSE2 INTERNALLY, all your optimization performance depends on the application itself. You don't make SSE2 better with your chipset drivers, the company who designed the software does (depending on what THEY request from the SIMD).
But all this is another kind of optimization really, here we are talking of post-software optimization.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:

eden · Jun 28, 2003

Such a TV show would rock here in Canada. I don't see any with such a great emphacis on graphics cards to the point of zooming on them, or actually showing LENGTHY videos of the game! Now that rocks.

I'm going for long hair now

!

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jun 29, 2003

Yeah, I think a show like that would be great, they've had a few like GameNation and such that focus mainly on Games, but I would think that even in this case it was a once every 2 months kind of thing, based on the amount of info they covered in the same shows (alot of releases in one show).
I like TechTV, and I do wish there was a Canadian equivalent of 'The Screen Savers', but I guess Canada AM, or Breakfast Television does a good job of Tech reviews right?

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

eden · Jun 29, 2003

Dave Chalks is not bad too.

There is also Electronic Playground. But I wish they all would literally PROBE the hardware they show us, for minutes long. I want to see what I could feel in front of me.
Not like those truly bad adds for video games or cars where they show you scenes that pass too fast for you to understand or analyse how good the GFX are.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jun 30, 2003

Dave Chalk is TERRIBLE Oie!

I used to work at CFCF, and despite the fact that that's who originally produced the shows, I can't stand it. Very out of date (even when they aren't re-runs). And not really very informative (very low tech info). I know alot of people who cringe when he comes on (including myself). It's an interesting format, but I just find it not current, and usually 3mths past 'new news' when it's even the latest show.
Anywho, that's just what I think of it. Good Idea, bad implementation, and he just rubs me the wrong way.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

Borsti · Jun 30, 2003

Oh... I forgot to mention that the video is in german. Sorry! I like those GIGA guys. The bad thing is that you can´t reveive it everywhere in germany. But they also offer a webstream.

I´m glad you like my long hair ;-)

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 17, 2003

Sorry to revive an old thread, but there is the NEW release of the 3rd technical document on <A HREF="http://www.aquamark3.com" target="_new">Aquamark's website</A>. And it appears that it will be aimed at being a 3Dmark equivalent/replacement and not just a technical benchmark. Check the 'with ARC you will be able to...' bullets and see if that doesn't seems familiar.

So it should be nice to look forward to. Borsti/Lars' link to the video of the demo is pretty impressive (now you can download the trailer from Aquamark, check below) and I am actually hoping this will be a good thing for the community. I'm still not sure about their ability/power to keep the benchmakr relevant/un-optimized, but we shall see. And we'll see if more than just a small handfull of us even care by that time.

You can also Download the <A HREF="http://www.aquamark3.com/teaser.htm" target="_new">TEASER</A> trailer from Aquamark now. Pretty sweet.

BTW, Yes Borsti the long hair suits you; it did me too, until I entered 'corporate' society. Now near shaved clean is as rebeliious as I can get; though I still keep my goatee! They CAN'T take that! I did shave my hair ino a mohawk for a Haloween party at work, but that doesn't count for too much. And Borsti if you have any more cool links to demos/videos I'm sure I speak for most of us, we'd be more than glad to check them out. Alot of us got a kick out of the <A HREF="http://www.farb-rausch.com/" target="_new">FarbRausch</A> demos in [H]'s recent BFG review.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

davepermen · Jul 17, 2003

hm.. farbrausch and friends.. yeah..

btw.. for benchmarking, borsti and friends on tomshardware, i suggest www.realstorm.com, the benchmark there is good to test cpu capabilities, too.. me, for example, only has 771 raymarks, and i'm very dissapointed

on the workpc i have 1451 raymarks.. much nicer

)

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 17, 2003

Yeah I have that benchmark on my computer at home (due to your last suggestion of it a while back), still haven't installed it though because I forgot about it after downloading it (went to sleep

). I'll try it today when I get home and post a result, just FYI.

<A HREF="http://www.realstorm.com/" target="_new">Here's the site made 'clicky'.</A>

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

Aquamark 3 is there a place for it anymore?

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