Question Asus Prime x670-E-Pro Wifi Boot failure on Cold Boot

[Stillent]

Hello Everyone,

I recently upgraded my Bios to version 3042 to patch out the AMD vulnerability, and proceed to use the system, except on cold boot the system would fail to post and I would see only the option to go onto bios and then start the system from there.

Looking around, I upgraded the BIOS to 3057 but the issue still remains.

The system doesn't seem to be behaving unusually outside of that situation. I don't overclock and the only change I made was enable my XMP in the BIOS after updating my Bios.

My Specs are:

Motherboard: Asus Prime x670-E-Pro Wifi
Cpu: AMD Ryzen 7 7800 x3d
Ram: G.SKILL TZ5E Neo RGB 6000 16Gx2 3038
GPU: Asus Tuff Rtx 4080 OC
PSU:Seasonic 1000w Vertex pcie5 PSU
Storage: Samsung Evo Ssd's

Any suggestion is appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Lutfij]

Welcome to the forums, newcomer!

https://www.asus.com/motherboards-c...helpdesk_bios?model2Name=PRIME-X670E-PRO-WIFI
Did you clear the CMOS after you'd verified that the BIOS was successfully flashed to the latest version? You're advised to disconnect from the wall and display, remove the CMOS battery, press and hold down the power button for 30secs to drain any residual power. Replace the CMOS battery after 30mins.

 

[Bob.B]

Hello Everyone,

I recently upgraded my Bios to version 3042 to patch out the AMD vulnerability, and proceed to use the system, except on cold boot the system would fail to post and I would see only the option to go onto bios and then start the system from there.

Looking around, I upgraded the BIOS to 3057 but the issue still remains.

The system doesn't seem to be behaving unusually outside of that situation. I don't overclock and the only change I made was enable my XMP in the BIOS after updating my Bios.

My Specs are:

Motherboard: Asus Prime x670-E-Pro Wifi
Cpu: AMD Ryzen 7 7800 x3d
Ram: G.SKILL TZ5E Neo RGB 6000 16Gx2 3038
GPU: Asus Tuff Rtx 4080 OC
PSU:Seasonic 1000w Vertex pcie5 PSU
Storage: Samsung Evo Ssd's

Any suggestion is appreciated.

Thanks

Do you have an expo ram option in the bios?

 

[Stillent]

Welcome to the forums, newcomer!

https://www.asus.com/motherboards-c...helpdesk_bios?model2Name=PRIME-X670E-PRO-WIFI
Did you clear the CMOS after you'd verified that the BIOS was successfully flashed to the latest version? You're advised to disconnect from the wall and display, remove the CMOS battery, press and hold down the power button for 30secs to drain any residual power. Replace the CMOS battery after 30mins.

Hi Lutfji,

No I did not clear my CMOS. It seems like the battery is in a convenient plate to remove, but I see there is a clear cmos button on the MB, I assume it does the same thing no?

Regarding the settings what do I loose? Just the start up parameters?

 

[Stillent]

Do you have an expo ram option in the bios?

Hello Bob.B,

Yes, the expo ram option is a drop down that appears when you boot into the Basic Bios and there is just a drop down to enable, although in the advance I think there were other options but I am not sure if those automatically change setting for you as well.

For what it is at the moment after I updated my bios I had also enables the Expo settings and then saved the changed it made with it selected as usual.

 

[Bob.B]

Hello Bob.B,

Yes, the expo ram option is a drop down that appears when you boot into the Basic Bios and there is just a drop down to enable, although in the advance I think there were other options but I am not sure if those automatically change setting for you as well.

For what it is at the moment after I updated my bios I had also enables the Expo settings and then saved the changed it made with it selected as usual.

You said you enabled xmp do you have both expo and xmp options in the bios?

 

[Stillent]

You said you enabled xmp do you have both expo and xmp options in the bios?

I'll need to wait till Thursday to check, stay tuned. However looking at my MB manual I think I am beginning to get your jist, as if Pg. 6 is to be believed then I might have seleted timings that Asus has set rather then the what is on the Ram. I think I need to go and change the clock Dram option as in pg 16/17. Thoughts?

 

[Bob.B]

I'll need to wait till Thursday to check, stay tuned. However looking at my MB manual I think I am beginning to get your jist, as if Pg. 6 is to be believed then I might have seleted timings that Asus has set rather then the what is on the Ram. I think I need to go and change the clock Dram option as in pg 16/17. Thoughts?

I have no stick time playing with what you have so I won't comment.

Perhaps other members will give thoughts.

 

[Stillent]

I have no stick time playing with what you have so I won't comment.

Perhaps other members will give thoughts.

All good, thanks for your time and the insight to trouble shoot.

 

[Misgar]

Motherboard: Asus Prime x670-E-Pro Wifi

I've got an Asus Prime X670-P WiFi and I cannot recall seeing any EXPO specific settings in the BIOS, unless DOCP counts as EXPO?
https://www.technewstoday.com/docp-asus/

I might have seleted timings that Asus has set rather then the what is on the Ram.

The SPD (Serial Presence Detect) chip on each DIMM contains a bunch of timings, related to possible XMP (or in some instances EXPO) timings for use by the BIOS.

I have some DIMMs with up to seven SPD settings for exactly the same memory clock frequency, with the only difference being the CL (CAS) value. In the image below for DDR4 RAM, there are five timigs for 1600MHz (3200MT/s). In each case, the only value which changes is CL (16, 17, 18, 19, 20).

When the Asus BIOS checked your RAM during installation, it probably picked the fastest timings for each clock speed. If it cannot find an exact match to your requested speed, it extrapolates timings from the nearest speed above and below.

The net result is when you select DOCP-6000 in the memory overclock section of the Asus BIOS, it will load the fastest CL(CAS) setting held in the XMP table (or EXPO if present). This might be too fast for your CPU.

N.B. A large proportion of DIMMs come with only XMP timings in SPD, i.e. no EXPO tables.

XMP values are often OK for use with AMD Ryzen, but not always. If you've set DDR5-6000 in D.O.C.P. it might simply be too fast for your Ryzen 7 7800 X3D without some manual tweaking.

Either drop the memory overclock by one level, e.g. DDR5-5800 or DDR5-5600 and see if the system becomes more stable.

Alternatively, dive into the manual timings after setting DDR5-6000 and raise the value of CL(CAS) by one clock cycle. If, for example, CL=38 at 6000MT/s, increase CL to 39 for both DIMMs. Save and reboot. Run stability test. If it's still unstable, try CL=40. Note: Your CL may not be 38 at 6000MT/s. I didn't check.

Of course adding clock cycles to CL slows down memory access, but stability is more important than sheer speed. Intel CPUs tend to run faster XMP speeds than AMD.

If your DIMMs are not in the Asus QVL, there's a chance they might not be 100% stable when overclocked on your CPU. Some people warn against running Corsair Vengeance with AM5 Ryzens.

I run my 2 x 32GB Kingston Fury DDR5 DIMMs at 4800MT/s for stability in long video renders on my 7950X.

 

[Stillent]

I've got an Asus Prime X670-P WiFi and I cannot recall seeing any EXPO specific settings in the BIOS, unless DOCP counts as EXPO?
https://www.technewstoday.com/docp-asus/


The SPD (Serial Presence Detect) chip on each DIMM contains a bunch of timings, related to possible XMP (or in some instances EXPO) timings for use by the BIOS.

I have some DIMMs with up to seven SPD settings for exactly the same memory clock frequency, with the only difference being the CL (CAS) value. In the image below for DDR4 RAM, there are five timigs for 1600MHz (3200MT/s). In each case, the only value which changes is CL (16, 17, 18, 19, 20).

When the Asus BIOS checked your RAM during installation, it probably picked the fastest timings for each clock speed. If it cannot find an exact match to your requested speed, it extrapolates timings from the nearest speed above and below.

The net result is when you select DOCP-6000 in the memory overclock section of the Asus BIOS, it will load the fastest CL(CAS) setting held in the XMP table (or EXPO if present). This might be too fast for your CPU.

N.B. A large proportion of DIMMs come with only XMP timings in SPD, i.e. no EXPO tables.

XMP values are often OK for use with AMD Ryzen, but not always. If you've set DDR5-6000 in D.O.C.P. it might simply be too fast for your Ryzen 7 7800 X3D without some manual tweaking.

Either drop the memory overclock by one level, e.g. DDR5-5800 or DDR5-5600 and see if the system becomes more stable.

Alternatively, dive into the manual timings after setting DDR5-6000 and raise the value of CL(CAS) by one clock cycle. If, for example, CL=38 at 6000MT/s, increase CL to 39 for both DIMMs. Save and reboot. Run stability test. If it's still unstable, try CL=40. Note: Your CL may not be 38 at 6000MT/s. I didn't check.

Of course adding clock cycles to CL slows down memory access, but stability is more important than sheer speed. Intel CPUs tend to run faster XMP speeds than AMD.

If your DIMMs are not in the Asus QVL, there's a chance they might not be 100% stable when overclocked on your CPU. Some people warn against running Corsair Vengeance with AM5 Ryzens.

I run my 2 x 32GB Kingston Fury DDR5 DIMMs at 4800MT/s for stability in long video renders on my 7950X.

Wow thanks for the amazing detailed breakdown, can't wait to try it out!

So I do have the EXPO setting on my DRAM, the ram in question is specifically this one: https://www.gskill.com/product/165/390/1661410135/F5-6000J3038F16GX2-TZ5NR

If I recall correctly I was very careful on my MB to DRAM choice in terms of compatibility and as far as I am aware this memory is listed as being compatible with that particular motherboard. As for the CPU choice I don't think the pairing matters as much, is marketing is to be believed the MB is intended for the 7000 series with DDR5 support and I think the x3d variant was midway out last year so I think the support was there in terms of use.

I think my approach on letting Asus take the wheel on the EXPO settings was too hands off and looking around I would need go through he Ai Tweaker and select the profile there, as even G.Skill has the screenshots on their FAQ on how to set it.

Misgar, just to bring it back for a moment, this Cold Boot issue only appeared after updating my BIOS substantially. I did not have any issues running the system with the simplistic setting process until this exact point, perhaps the system wasn't as sensitive?

Overall based on the discussion the cold boot issue is DRAM driven and if that doesn't workout then I BIOS reset (which in itself could affect the DRAM EXPO settings) next. That's the plan for Thursday, so stay tuned.

 

[Misgar]

do I do have the EXPO setting on my DRAM,

Yes it does say you have EXPO. Despite having a number of AMD CPUs, I don't have any EXPO RAM myself.

this Cold Boot issue only appeared after updating my BIOS substantially.

When you update the BIOS, it may remove some/all of the tweaks you made in the old BIOS. For example, I often find the BIOS update has switched off "Virtualization" required to run Hyper-V.

After updating the BIOS, you are advised to load system defaults and (hopefully) obtain a stable first boot.

You might have to change the default boot drive setting, if like me, you have more than one bootable drive in the machine.

Other settings might include selecting the main GPU card instead of the iGPU. Disabling full screen logo, enable third-party ROMs, change fan speed profiles, etc. These should not affect stability though.

In your case that doesn't seem to have happened (yet), if you still have trouble with a cold boot.

Are you overclocking your memory to 6000MT/s? If so, temporarily disable EXPO and set the RAM back to the JEDEC default (probably 4800MT/s).

Power the system on and off a few times. Switch off the mains supply to ensure a cold boot next time. Experiment for a while and see if the system becomes more stable. If so, the memory overclock is probably the culprit.

If the system is stable at 4800MT/s, gradually increase the EXPO speed setting in small increments, e.g. try 5000MT/s first. Check for the cold boot problem. Run a short stress test.

If the system is stable at 5000MT/s, increase EXPO one step, e.g. 5200MT/s. Repeat the startup tests and run another short stress test.

Continue on to 5400MT/s, 5600MT/s, 5800MT/s, before setting 6000MT/s. You might find a speed where the system becomes unstable.

Of course this assumes your BIOS allows you to make 200MT/s increments. It might only allow 400MT/s steps.

If you reach an EXPO setting where instability sets in, either back off the speed by one notch, or start making manual adjustments to CL/CAS.

Ryzens can spend several minutes in a new build (or maybe after a BIOS update) attempting to "re-train" DDR5 memory. If you're lucky, the system will settle down after a few training sessions as the BIOS sorts things out.

Unless you are well versed in the art of manual memory tweaking to configure the dozens of Primary, Secondary and Tertiary timings by hand, it's best to let the BIOS pick the appropriate settings out of the SPD on the DIMMs.

Many problems are due to over-enthusiastic XMP/EXPO overclocks. Other problems are due to unfortunate combinations of CPU, RAM and motherboard.

You've been careful and chosen RAM with EXPO settings. Other people have bought Corsair Vengeance DDR5 with no EXPO tables and had stability issues with AM5 systems.

Search online for other people with your CPU, RAM and mobo combination. You might find someone else with the same problem.

 

[Stillent]

Hello Everyone,

Thank you for sticking around on this saga and your expertise.

I did a cold boot today and it seemed like the 1/20 chance the computer decided to turn on without issue from cold boot.

Restarting and setting it to default to 4800MT/s and there seems to be no issue with Cold Boot.

So for each day, I will start to cold boot the computer like I usually have when this issue started but with the following changes:

I don't know if I should have just changed my Memory Frequency outright without the timings or voltages, so I did the following instead:

Preloaded the EXPO profile:
Memory Frequency: Auto -> 6000 MHz
Tcl: Auto -> 30
Trcd: Auto -> 38
Trp: Auto -> 38
Tras: Auto -> 96
Dram VDD Voltage: Auto -> 1.35
Dram VDDQ Voltage: Auto -> 1.35
PMIC Voltages: Auto -> Sync All PMICs
Memory VDD Voltage: Auto -> 1.35

I hope that is in line with your recommendations Misgar? If not I am lost on what implications there will be with the timings and voltage manipulation.

And then I brought down the Memory Frequency to 5400MHz, which is how the system will run.

Depending on how cold boot happens I will put it at the 200Mhz increments depending on results.

There was one group on Reddit that seemed to have the issue with Asus MB boards and BIOS 3057, but it was a mixed bag on what their settings on BIOS are, as some just had stability issues with an earlier BIOS version and then not with the current.

 

[Misgar]

then I brought down the Memory Frequency to 5400MHz, which is how the system will run.

Reducing the speed to 5400MT/s whilst keeping the faster 6000MT/s timings will make life "easier" for the IMC channels in the CPU. It's not quite the way I would have done it, but who cares if it results in a working computer.

Strange your system wasn't stable at the slower 4800MT/s, but if you've got it to work at 5400MT/s that's good. My Kingston Fury DDR5 DIMMs have two settings at 4800MT/s. The first is a non-XMP setting with RAM voltage set to the default 1.20V. The second is XMP (still at 4800MT/s) with exactly the same timings as non-XMP, but with 1.35V. The extra 0.15V makes DDR5 more stable when overclocked.

In my DDR5 RAM, I couldn't see the point of having two settings at standard 4800MT/s, where extra voltage is usually not needed, but then I'm not an expert in the minutiae of memory and BIOS design. I normally find the JEDEC default frequency for DDR5 (typically 4800MT/s) is stable at 1.20V. It's only when I start running higher frequency XMP overclocks (no EXPO on any of my DIMMs) that I sometimes observe instability, even with additional voltage. At that point I reduce RAM speed until stable.

issue with Asus MB boards

Perhaps I've been fortunate with the various BIOS updates on both my Asus boards (3800X with DDR4 and 7950X with DDR5). I don't run PBO overclocks on either machine, for stability in long renders.

On a possibly unrelated subject, I assume you're running Windows 11 (or maybe 10)?

You might consider switching off Windows "Fast Startup" and see if it makes any difference. It shouldn't be directly related to your memory instability problems, but then you are having boot up problems.

Fast Startup allows Windows to save certain system settings to a file on the boot drive (I think it's hiberfil.sys) to (in theory) make the system boot faster next time. This messes up my multi-drive systems where I keep several versions of Windows on separate drives in each machine. Consequently, I now disable Fast Startup.

https://www.windowscentral.com/soft...-enable-or-disable-fast-startup-on-windows-11

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-disable-windows-10-fast-startup

When installing Windows 10, I switch off all power saving features. I disable screen saver, stop the disk drives from powering down after 20 minutes inactivity, disable power saving on USB Root Hubs, Ethernet chipsets, WiFi chipsets, network controllers, etc.

I delete the Hibernation file hiberfil.sys from all desktop PCs, even if they contain only one boot drive, but I leave hiberfil enabled on laptops.
https://www.howtogeek.com/885071/how-to-disable-hibernation-and-remove-hiberfil-sys-in-windows-11/

I could be "clutching at straws", but disabling Fast Startup might result in more consistent boots on your PC. You can always re-enable hiberfil and fast startup if there's no improvement.

 

[Stillent]

Reducing the speed to 5400MT/s whilst keeping the faster 6000MT/s timings will make life "easier" for the IMC channels in the CPU. It's not quite the way I would have done it, but who cares if it results in a working computer.

Strange your system wasn't stable at the slower 4800MT/s, but if you've got it to work at 5400MT/s that's good. My Kingston Fury DDR5 DIMMs have two settings at 4800MT/s. The first is a non-XMP setting with RAM voltage set to the default 1.20V. The second is XMP (still at 4800MT/s) with exactly the same timings as non-XMP, but with 1.35V. The extra 0.15V makes DDR5 more stable when overclocked.

Just to clarify, when I said "I couldn't get anything to happen" meaning the fail-to-boot screen wasn't popping up (I'll edit the post). The system was stable at the base settings it seemed, but I was a bit trigger-happy that day and pushed past just running it at base settings. And maybe a side resentment of the fact my system can't seem to handle running the advertised EXPO profile now.

Today, I cold-booted at 5600MHz, but it failed to boot, so I am back down to 5400MHz. Yesterday, I did have one cold boot at 5600MHz, and it booted with no problem.

I swear it is like the most temperamental boot-up I have ever experienced.

On a possibly unrelated subject, I assume you're running Windows 11 (or maybe 10)?

You might consider switching off Windows "Fast Startup" and see if it makes any difference. It shouldn't be directly related to your memory instability problems, but then you are having boot up problems.

Fast Startup allows Windows to save certain system settings to a file on the boot drive (I think it's hiberfil.sys) to (in theory) make the system boot faster next time. This messes up my multi-drive systems where I keep several versions of Windows on separate drives in each machine. Consequently, I now disable Fast Startup.

I am currently running Windows 10 with the looming dread of upgrading it to Windows 11 in August next year.

Following your recommendation I have turned off my Fast Start-up, however, if I hadn't looked at the link you posted I would have thought the discussion was about the setting in the BIOS Fast Boot option. Maybe that is something to play around with right now too?

In all, at this moment I turned my ram speed back down to 5400MHz and turned off Fast Start-up.

 

[Misgar]

In all, at this moment I turned my ram speed back down to 5400MHz and turned off Fast Start-up.

I've finally got around to checking the officially supported maximum memory speed for the 7800X3D in CPU World and it's DDR5-5200.
https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen 7 7800X3D.html

This doesn't mean you (or other people) can't overclock RAM faster than 5200MT/s on a 7800X3D, but 6000MT/s may not be easily achievable with this particular CPU, unless you're experienced at manual tweaking, or win the "Silicon Lottery".

Just because you buy memory rated at DDR5-6000 doesn't mean you'll be able to achieve 6000MT/s with all combinations of CPU and motherboard. In general, DDR5 tends to clock faster on Intel than on AMD. You'd probably stand a much better chance of an easy 6000MT/s XMP overclock with a modern Intel CPU.

When I'm overclocking RAM, be it DDR3, DDR4 or DDR5, I check the various timings in the SPD table (a small chip on each DIMM) using AIDA64 (Motherboard, SPD option). I then check the actual timings set by the BIOS in AIDA64 (Motherboard, Chipset option) to determine which set of values the BIOS has pulled out of SPD for the specific XMP overclock speed I requested.

Usually there's a very close (or identical) match between a set of values in the SPD table and the actual BIOS values, which helps to confirm that "what you've asked for" is "what you've got".

My suspicion is that if you've selected the 5400MT/s EXPO or XMP setting, the BIOS will have chosen the most appropriate timings out of SPD for that speed, i.e. you'll be using "tighter" 5400MT/s timings, not "looser" 6000MT/s timings.

It's a tricky concept to get to grips with, but AIDA64 and other programs can help you to puzzle things out. It's easy to check. At lower speeds, timings will appear as a set of smaller figures, with fewer (slower) clock cycles. As you increase the memory speed, timings will appear as larger numbers, with more (faster) clock cycles per second.

On the 5600X in front of me now, DDR4-2400 SPD Primary timings are 12-15-15-28, but DDR4-3600 SPD timings are 18-22-22-48. The numbers for DDR5 are bigger, but the clock frequencies are twice as fast, e.g. 2400MT/s is a typical JEDEC speed for DDR4, but 4800MT/s is a typical JEDEC speed for DDR5.

Since the 7800X3D officially supports only 5200MT/s, I'd be inclined to call it a day and stick to 5400MT/s if it's stable, unless you feel like exploring manual tweaking. You're already 200MT/s above the "guaranteed" maximum, but I'm sure more is possible in expert hands. Put a Liquid Nitrogen pot on the CPU and you might get 7000MT/s. Even faster with Liquid Helium if Ryzens can operate down towards Absolute Zero. I've not tried extreme cooling on CPUs, but I have used LN2 at work.

https://www.storagereview.com/revie...d-nitrogen-amd-ryzen-threadripper-7000-series

BIOS Fast Boot option. Maybe that is something to play around with right now too?

I doubt it'll make any difference. All that switching off Fast Boot in the BIOS does is to spend a little longer checking things like RAM. Still, there's no harm in trying.

You probably won't benefit from switching off Windows Fast Startup either, but who knows?

 

[Stillent]

I've finally got around to checking the officially supported maximum memory speed for the 7800X3D in CPU World and it's DDR5-5200.
https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen 7 7800X3D.html

This doesn't mean you (or other people) can't overclock RAM faster than 5200MT/s on a 7800X3D, but 6000MT/s may not be easily achievable with this particular CPU, unless you're experienced at manual tweaking, or win the "Silicon Lottery".

Just because you buy memory rated at DDR5-6000 doesn't mean you'll be able to achieve 6000MT/s with all combinations of CPU and motherboard. In general, DDR5 tends to clock faster on Intel than on AMD. You'd probably stand a much better chance of an easy 6000MT/s XMP overclock with a modern Intel CPU.

True, but when I was doing my basic research I looked into the parings and through the two AMD systems I've gone through (this being my second one) the EXPO profile in both cases has worked at the rated speed once the EXPO was enabled.

I guess that is where my surprise appeared to be as I just never figured that RAM which already worked at 6000 MHz for a better part of the year would one day just become unstable after a BIOS update, and only in this specific situation (warm boot never caused an issue). It is a shame to lose out on the gaming performance I paid for, but having the peace of mind that the computer will turn on properly time and again is more important, (I like the flexibility of a PC but have basic knowledge of how to assemble and make them work).

I agree with you about just calling it a day as it is already over the base. EDIT: no the instability issue has arisen now at 5400 MHz, I bumped it down to 5200MHz. Interestingly enough the resolution of the BIOS was different this time around....Turning Fast Start-up back on.

I doubt it'll make any difference. All that switching off Fast Boot in the BIOS does is to spend a little longer checking things like RAM. Still, there's no harm in trying.

You probably won't benefit from switching off Windows Fast Startup either, but who knows?

It is just throwing combinations at this point. Although I do like the Fast Start-up being disabled cause it seems like the computer is less squirrely when shutting down with a compromise of a 3 sec extra time on the Windows Start up screen. EDIT: Problem, I turned it back on.

 

[Stillent]

Nevermind, the system failed to post once again.... Asus got back to me, maybe they can replicate.....

 

[Stillent]

Update: I think I figured out how to trigger the Boot issue. If I turn on my computer put it to sleep at least once, and then turn it off, the next cold boot will be a failure event at 5200MHz. No EXPO profile running did not cause an issue.