Austerity

[Gulli]

The point being, he is advocating government involvement in what is NOT a US Government job, at the forced expense of American taxpayers. No thanks. We need reform, but that's not it. Reform isn't about finding "somebody else" to pay for it, it's about lowering the costs. Get rid of the layers of bureaucracy, the ambulance chasers, call insurance companies to heel, all of the above; but any recent plan I've heard ADDS cost.

And this is different from, say FDR, Clinton or Johnson, how exactly? What makes them (in your eyes) ordinary bad presidents while Obama will (in your eyes) destroy the America?

 

[badge]

The point being, he is advocating government involvement in what is NOT a US Government job, at the forced expense of American taxpayers. No thanks. We need reform, but that's not it. Reform isn't about finding "somebody else" to pay for it, it's about lowering the costs. Get rid of the layers of bureaucracy, the ambulance chasers, call insurance companies to heel, all of the above; but any recent plan I've heard ADDS cost.

Obama got his lowest job approval numbers last week. Years ago during rush hour Michelle called him to warn him that a crazed idiot was driving on the wrong way on the freeway. Barack replied that he'd already counted about four hundred of them.

 

[Onus]

I certainly hope I didn't imply anywhere that FDR, Johnson, or Clinton were better Presidents, although "America" was so much stronger then that the damage wasn't as severe (though it would have lasting consequences). From what I've been reading lately, FDR's policies increased the duration and severity of the Great Depression, Johnson's "Great Society" trained entire generations to be Government-dependent, and Clinton's incompetence pretty much forced his successor to resume and then expand on an extremely costly war, definitely contributed to the specifics of 9/11 (the Saudis pretty much offered us Osama bin Towel's head on a plate during the time that unzipped miscreant was living in the White House), and start on still more (again costly) warfare. No, 0bama's "virtue" may be that government [condoned and/or sponsored] wrondoing during his term may be the last straw that breaks the camel's back. America's larger cities are already becoming increasingly and visibly unsafe, from feral humans with no respect or even a basic understanding of Right and Wrong. People are slowly coming to the realization that this dog needs a flea bath, badly.

 

[badge]

0bama's "virtue"

Poor judgement, blind ambition and a lack of rectitude are inherent in his case.

 

[Martell77]

And this is different from, say FDR, Clinton or Johnson, how exactly? What makes them (in your eyes) ordinary bad presidents while Obama will (in your eyes) destroy the America?

Its a matter of success. No previous president has wasted more money, taken socialist policies as far or kissed our enemies butts.

Obama is advocating a healthcare system patterend after Europe, while many European officials are telling him to stop because it has failed in their countries and they are trying to get out of it. Yet he just keeps pushing on. Obamacare is the first huge step towards socialized healthcare and the American people screamed they didn't want it, but Dems didn't care and passed it anyways.

Look at how he has conned people. He talks about the evil corporations and greedy rich people, now we have a bunch of sheeple protesting on Wall St. Yes, the rich pay a lower percentage but that percentage figures to a much high amount paid. Those people are basically protesting against jobs and for higher prices. But think about it:

Raise corporate taxes = either fewer employees or higher prices on the products. Either way, the middle class and poor pay the taxes. Corporations don't pay taxes, consumers do.
Raise taxes on the rich = Rich move to other countries or start finding ways to hide income.

Some say tax the rich and give to the poor, but when you've taxed the rich down, then who will you tax to give handouts to the poor? Socialism is trickle up poverty, Capitalism is trickle down wealth. Capitalism is failing right now due to all the socialist regulations imposed that mandated banks and credit compaines to help over-extend people that couldn't afford the credit given them, which is why the housing market went bust. Many of those predatory lenders we keep hearing about were following rules put forth by the likes of Barney Frank, among others.

I could go on but I'm getting a headache. You can't be as naive as you appear. Take an economics class.

 

[Onus]

Excellent comments, Martell. Too bad the current generation isn't being taught things like that, as it would not serve the interests of the PTB.

Edit: Anyway, 5:00a comes early; I'll catch up in the morning.

 

[ltrazaklt]

Gulli has quite a way of putting words into people's mouths , and ASSuming things.
Martell is exactly right ..and Gulli's argument ALWAYS about someone else's money ..its ALWAYS about the money..hmmm helping poor people by taking from someone else. it never occurs them that to say that maybe turning off MTV and reading a book would help, or maybe getting a second job for a while, or maybe Not spending your money on crap (be it fancy rims, fancy jewelry, that new music CD, that trip to see that new movie, maybe staying in and cooking instead going out, or instead of tickets to that new Rock/Rap concert , maybe putting that money in the bank; oh cant afford that new book, try the Library ..no if they cant afford the new book, it must be because someone else has more money than they do right ? it has nothing to do with how they spent what little money they have.. but of course it much easier to blame someone else , and find a way to justify taking someone else's money. I know , I know none of my suggestions are easy , or 'cool' ..but I just dont believe in taking from someone else ..btw , I dont recall FDR, or Johnson , apologizing to the world or to our enemies , I dont recall FDR or Johnson directing to the DoJ to ignore its own laws. I Dont recall FDR or Johnson losing the AAA+ rating, I dont recall FDR or Johnson , wasting a record amount of money with absolutely NOTHING to show for it. I dont recall FDR and Johnson's College Thesis being a closely held locked and sealed national secret. I dont recall FDR or Johnson , putting out a Birth Certificate that is obvious fake, (or at least obviously altered post scan so sloppily that a kid on youtube can disect it) ..and jtt is also correct , the point being that he is imposing the Gov't on the people when the people DONT want it.
the interesting thing to me ..since you mentioned Johnson and his 'great society' ..have you tallied up how much the taxpayer has paid out on welfare/food stamps etc ..since those programs were instuted..and how much the poverty level has changed ? have you looked at Social Security for example ..whne it started there 35 workers paying into social security for every 1 taking out of it..in the year 2000 , that figure was down 3 workers paying for every 1 taking out..I myself will get to pay SS for my entire life , and probably never see a dime of it. Im sorry but throwing money at the problem withOUT changing the behavior will just waste the money.
"Socialism is great , until you run out of other peoples money" --Winston Churchill

 

[dogman_1234]

Assume: Making and Ass our of U M E.

 

[amdfangirl]

Your system of government election for officials is so screwed up you will never get the kind of people into ffice that you need.

Your government won't push austerity ... it is political suicide ... therefore the US govt will continue running a deficit until it is bankrupted ... no politician takes a view longer than their own term of office ...

You need millions to fund a campaign for office ... so only the rich get in ... or those "bought" buy the rich ... and therefore tainted in the process.

Moreover ... who are you people to judge other countries political systems when your own is so screwed up?

Worry about the grass withering on your own side of the fence ... the rest of us will take care of our own thanks ... in this sense I belive gropouce has the right answer.

Well you look at Greece. Riots and protesting.

If I was running for PM, I'd do political sucide of sorts, offer to cut the paycheck of all politicians, ban 3rd party 'endorsements'. I would be damn popular.

People hate politicians.

In giving them less pay, I'd be a miracle in the polls.

 

[Gulli]

Its a matter of success. No previous president has wasted more money, taken socialist policies as far or kissed our enemies butts.

Obama is advocating a healthcare system patterend after Europe, while many European officials are telling him to stop because it has failed in their countries and they are trying to get out of it.

Name one European "official" (and no, lobbyists from insurance companies are not officials). You could hold a poll in every European nation (or Canada, NZ, South Korea, Australia, Taiwan, Argentina, Chile, Brazil or Japan) and find that the vast majority of these populations would never take their government out of their healthcare. No European president, prime minister or MP has proposed this in the past decades, not even the libertarians. In fact European politicians often use the term "American circumstances" as a pejorative term, to (often successfully) scare voters, when the subject is healthcare, the prison system or higher education.

You talk about reading books, maybe you should travel a bit and experience other societies first hand (and find out that paying thousands of $ in insurance per year and still getting shafted when you need surgery is not considered normal in other developed nations) and be humbled by the fact that America is not #1 in everything.

In a 2008 poll 59% of American doctors supported universal healthcare, while only 32% opposed it, but hey, what do they know, right? http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/03/31/idUSN31432035

If you think Obama's proposals are more drastic than what FDR and Johnson did you need a reality check.

 

[ltrazaklt]

Gulli , you should travel to America sometime ..and while I personally have not visited the great European Utopia ..my Folks and friends are VERY well traveled in Europe , let list some of thier experiences for you .. (in fact my Ex, and one of my Best Friends since 7th grade now both LIVE in the UK and have for more than a decade)
My Folks ..
1) first time in Paris ..PickPocketed ..
2) in Athens , Greece , they broke into the Hotel Room and stole my fathers wallet; and no this was not a dump in a bad neighborhood, it was a very nice hotel
3) in Northern Italy , they made a wrong turn, and wound up at the Italian border, where they were arrested , held for 48 hours without charge, my Mother was strip searched and held for no reason whatesoever. they basically saw some tourists and shook them down for a bribe, my Father wanted to just pay them whatever, but my Mother refused because they had done nothing wrong, however after being strip searched and held for 48 hrs , became obvious they were just holding (kidnapping them) for money
shall I go on ?
my Friends
1) on a train tour of Europe somewhere around the Austrian Border, he woken up in the middle of night , and demanded papers and passports , and even though everything was in order , they still arrested him and basically shook him down for a bribe
2) my friend that Lives in London , just last year , he was mugged , and robbed of his wallet.
shall I go on ?

Thanks but I will keep my american dollars right here in america.

as for your 2008 poll ..that was when the people were lied to about what was going to be in the HealthCare Bill 'that we had to pass it , before we could read it' ..take that same poll today , and %59 of Americans want Obamacare Repealed .

David G. Green, Ph.D
Philippe Manière
Paul Belien
Johan Hjertqvist
Friedrich Breyer, Ph.D

though I dont know if they qualify as 'officials'

 

[chunkymonster]

Yeah, cause he's so much worse than Nixon, Reagan and Bush Jr...

All this "Obama is the second Hitler/Stalin/antichrist, etc..." crap is unfounded BS. It goes from the NRA saying he'll make all guns illegal (the only law he has signed on the subject actually made it legal to carry guns in national parks), O'Reilly saying his taxes will be raised to 50% (Obama only wants them to get back to the rates of the Clinton era, meaning 35% --> 39,6% for the top rate) to Glenn Beck saying ACORN stole the election for Obama (not one single republican senator, representative or governor reported voting irregularities in their state and not one has publicly supported Glenn Beck's theory), to various pundits saying he wants to nationalize healthcare (he never proposed anything of the sort, ever), hell, there's even a thread about Obama wanting to chip everyone, right here on Toms. It's all a load of crap, but hey, facts don't matter anymore. Obama is more centrist/slightly to the right than Clinton, FDR or Johnson and they didn't cause the world to come to an end, now did they?

How about the politicians and pundits calling him the worst thing in the universe first get rid of the religious/anti-science nutjobs and corporate whores among their own first (there'd be none left if they did that, so this is a rhetorical question)?

These days, there is just so much hatred, propaganda and ignorance in politics... The hatred is just so much stronger than when Clinton was in office, I really don't blame people for thinking this hatred is rooted in racism (although I do not subscribe to that theory myself, I'm more a "Karl Rove's spin machine f*cked everything up by making people care more about opinions and spin than about actual facts" kinda guy).

With the few remaining sane republicans almost instantly eliminated more than a year before the presidential elections, Obama remains the least worst of the 2012 candidates by far. Perry has his heart in the right place but is just a dumb puppet of corporate interests (just like the previous Texas governor) and Ron Paul and Herman Cain belong to that rare breed of republicans that do have half a brain (maybe John Huntsman too, but he was eliminated at the get go for being sane) they are just too far out there with their free market fundamentalism that would condemn 90% of the population to poverty (robber baron age style), finally, Romney is a dirty corporate whore who'd sell his own mother and publicly declare eating cyanide is healthy, if his corporate donors asked him to.

Being a Dutchman I can forgive your mis-perceptions and ignorance of American politics. But, someone who didn't know you are not an American might actually think that your opinions on American politics are valid. I just wanna know how you breath with your head is so far up your fart hole; at least a $hit head is easy to recognize.

 

[gropouce]

Gulli , you should travel to America sometime ..and while I personally have not visited the great European Utopia ..my Folks and friends are VERY well traveled in Europe , let list some of thier experiences for you .. (in fact my Ex, and one of my Best Friends since 7th grade now both LIVE in the UK and have for more than a decade)

UK is not really in UE, you know...

My Folks ..
1) first time in Paris ..PickPocketed ..

Haha!
You were a tourist, it's normal.
You should have read the signs (or not go in the subway)
You can get your stuff back next time you go to Romania.

David G. Green, Ph.D
Philippe Manière
Paul Belien
Johan Hjertqvist
Friedrich Breyer, Ph.D

though I dont know if they qualify as 'officials'

They are'nt.

 

[ltrazaklt]

so it's 'normal' to be stolen from in Paris ..that's nice, and you think it is funny ? you know between things like that and the 'French-IndoChine' and the "hua lo" and 'Operation Vulture' ... it's a wonder anyone goes there at all. fear not though , the gleam of the city of lights is fading fast ..I understand France is now about 30% Muslim, and they use their own 'Security Force' to block off the streets for Friday prayers ..how were the Riots over there by the way ? I saw a lot of burned cars , and I read that one of the police cheifs called it 'intifada' ...
are saying that UK is NOT part of the EU ?

 

[gropouce]

so it's 'normal' to be stolen from in Paris ..that's nice, and you think it is funny ? you know between things like that and the 'French-IndoChine' and the "hua lo" and 'Operation Vulture' ... it's a wonder anyone goes there at all. fear not though , the gleam of the city of lights is fading fast ..I understand France is now about 30% Muslim, and they use their own 'Security Force' to block off the streets for Friday prayers ..how were the Riots over there by the way ? I saw a lot of burned cars , and I read that one of the police cheifs called it 'intifada' ...
are saying that UK is NOT part of the EU ?

Be stolen from in Paris? i don't know, i lives for 6 years there and never have been stolen.
Concerning the rest, i surrender
Except for this police chief calling intifada: never heard before.

And i agree with Oldman. My coutry sucks as yours and yours is as awesome as mine.
But it's different, we have a deal and he welcomes me home if my economy would collapse. (I only bring the beer)

 

[ltrazaklt]

I was going to say ....its getting waaaay off topic here ..not trying to attack anyone's nationality ..

 

[amdfangirl]

so it's 'normal' to be stolen from in Paris ..that's nice, and you think it is funny ? you know between things like that and the 'French-IndoChine' and the "hua lo" and 'Operation Vulture' ... it's a wonder anyone goes there at all. fear not though , the gleam of the city of lights is fading fast ..I understand France is now about 30% Muslim, and they use their own 'Security Force' to block off the streets for Friday prayers ..how were the Riots over there by the way ? I saw a lot of burned cars , and I read that one of the police cheifs called it 'intifada' ...
are saying that UK is NOT part of the EU ?

When on a school trip, two of my classmates were almost robbed at knife-point by an amateur.

😉

At this point I should invent a story of how I saved they day.

But one of the classmates tried to explain to the robber that he wanted to take his camera's SD card out to save his photos in French.

Tried...

He was so busy trying to communicate to the poor thief with the pocket dicitionary.

Fear makes people do the weirdest things.

The thief ended up running away. Took way too long to rob them.

As for me I was busy in the hotel room eating chocolate when it happened. 😉

Oh well.

Some of you should come over Down Under. Particularly if you come from Britian as a backpacker.

All I can say is the best of luck.

You might not survive, but you will get 15 minutes of fame.

Being the next British backpacker to die here.

 

[dogman_1234]

What about any of us Yankees in the States?

 

[Onus]

I think I can deal with wild animals being wild animals, and venomous insects being venomous insects; they are what they are, and hazards (however deadly) to be expected from them are entirely consistent with their nature. It is humans, living by force and other willful wrongdoing rather than by reason that are unpredictable and worrisome.

 

[Gulli]

@Itztrakalt

I've lived in the United States...

Nice stories you got there, but not sure what you want to prove by them? Western European crime rates are consistently lower by a lot than the American ones, in every category. We don't have an equivalent of Compton. Not that this side of the pond is utopia but America is just in a league of its own when it comes to crime in developed nations, sad but true.

 

[ltrazaklt]

well , when you legalize EVERYthing , naturally your crime rate is going to go down ? you still have avoided the questions of how ..just for the example I picked, how legalized prostitution affects say STD transmission rates , or how the it 'cost effective' health care ? honestly , if America legalized everything your country has , from Pot to Hookers , do you think the crime rates would even out ? about a 1/3 american crimes are 'drug related' ..soo if we legalized the drugs , as you have , wouldnt that drop the crime rate ? the point of the stories is they are from real life experiences of real people I know and trust are not lying or have an agenda to fill with propaganda ...and to show , that Europe is not better than America in that respect to crime.
But again this is off topic ..Austerity is going to be Needed in America , for a while , and its nothing new ..we rationed everything from sugar to rubber to gas during the war , during the Great Depression , 'rationing' was even worse, I think Austerity would fine ..particularly if it at teh Federal Gov't level . the Federal Gov't has grown tremendously during the last few decades , to the point that most of your prolly dont realize that your HomeOwners Insurance does NOT cover Floods, and the Flood Insurance is regulated by the Federal Govt , it is in fact the same price no matter what state you live in. the Reason for the is that NO Insurance company in America is big enough to actually cover Flood losses , the ONLY instutution large enough to cover that tab is the Federal Gov't . take the Tax Code ..the IRS tax code has grown to some 60,000 pages in length , and is so convaluded that no one can actually interprit it ..does EVERY Single Gov't on the planet NEED Austerity , no ..many have already gone through it, China for example , a Generational length Austerity. But I htink that America is about due.

 

[Nim Chimpsky]

Austerity is just another way to punish the poor for what the rich have done.

 

[Reynod]

Yeah, cause he's so much worse than Nixon, Reagan and Bush Jr...

All this "Obama is the second Hitler/Stalin/antichrist, etc..." crap is unfounded BS. It goes from the NRA saying he'll make all guns illegal (the only law he has signed on the subject actually made it legal to carry guns in national parks), O'Reilly saying his taxes will be raised to 50% (Obama only wants them to get back to the rates of the Clinton era, meaning 35% --> 39,6% for the top rate) to Glenn Beck saying ACORN stole the election for Obama (not one single republican senator, representative or governor reported voting irregularities in their state and not one has publicly supported Glenn Beck's theory), to various pundits saying he wants to nationalize healthcare (he never proposed anything of the sort, ever), hell, there's even a thread about Obama wanting to chip everyone, right here on Toms. It's all a load of crap, but hey, facts don't matter anymore. Obama is more centrist/slightly to the right than Clinton, FDR or Johnson and they didn't cause the world to come to an end, now did they?

How about the politicians and pundits calling him the worst thing in the universe first get rid of the religious/anti-science nutjobs and corporate whores among their own first (there'd be none left if they did that, so this is a rhetorical question)?

These days, there is just so much hatred, propaganda and ignorance in politics... The hatred is just so much stronger than when Clinton was in office, I really don't blame people for thinking this hatred is rooted in racism (although I do not subscribe to that theory myself, I'm more a "Karl Rove's spin machine f*cked everything up by making people care more about opinions and spin than about actual facts" kinda guy).

With the few remaining sane republicans almost instantly eliminated more than a year before the presidential elections, Obama remains the least worst of the 2012 candidates by far. Perry has his heart in the right place but is just a dumb puppet of corporate interests (just like the previous Texas governor) and Ron Paul and Herman Cain belong to that rare breed of republicans that do have half a brain (maybe John Huntsman too, but he was eliminated at the get go for being sane) they are just too far out there with their free market fundamentalism that would condemn 90% of the population to poverty (robber baron age style), finally, Romney is a dirty corporate whore who'd sell his own mother and publicly declare eating cyanide is healthy, if his corporate donors asked him to.

I thought this was excellent Gulli.

 

[ltrazaklt]

and another shining example of 'civility' and certainly filled with facts not opinions, and certainly no spin in there ..I mean IF only the Dems could get control of the White House , and BOTH houses of Congress.. 😉

 

[ltrazaklt]

try this one

http://www.isi.org/(X(1)S(igb0xwnc0bh1oaasvctl2l55))/quiz.aspx?q=FE5C3B47-9675-41E0-9CF3-072BB31E2692&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1