Big Question for the group... About Video Editting

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Ok I am looking at purchasing a new computer here my old HP 800 Mhz Intel P3
isn't doing it! I want to edit serious video from analog to digital (aka
make home made DVDs), currently I own a Toshiba DVD- RW (SD-r5002 model). My
main problem is in the new system I have looked at ATI 9800 All In Wonder
Pro cards, is there a better way to capture the video? If so what product
can capture in real time without dropping out frames? I also currently own
Pinnacle Systems Studio 9 for editting and I love the GUI as it is easy to
understand and straight forward to operate. Further in my new system I am
considering upgrading to a Pioneer DVR- A07 for the dual format reasons and
the bragging rights!! LOL! I do have an ATI All In Wonder Pro 128 card
currently but I find that is drops out frames during recording, and further
when installed with the DVD-RW in my HP I can't turn the system off (some
unknown hardware conflicit MS, BS is not picking up). BUT I am not limited
to capture by the ATI, as I also own a very outdated Pinnacle Systems Studio
Online (which usually works good), which uses a 1.0 Ver. USB connection.
There are some that would argue that my lame ass Windows ME has a lot to do
with it, but that to me is just an excuse, as there is too much wrong with
Wintel to begin with (example Windows 95/ 486, I never found a problem). I
know more then I am letting on with computers, and not your normal lame ass
user. But I listen to logical, and realistic folks when they have a good
point (in other words spammers don't bother repling). I also currently own a
Sony Digital Camcorder with S-Video output, another thought about my new and
old systems, I am currently running 512 megs of RAM (maxxed out) in my
current system, but the new system I feel should be running at least 1 Gig
of memory and with at least 2.4 Gig in Processor speed (if not better) I
know that the Ati 9800 series card is the baddest with some of the big guns,
but I have a very limited budget also to consider! I would like to see in
short how many might consider builting the system outlined above as far as
price is an issue. In closing I feel that it could be built for around $1000
or less, provided that ease of use and OS understanding. Does anybody out
there understand me or am I just messing with things I can't understand or
control?

Very Sincerely, E5

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 23:02:44 GMT, "E5I5O" <jbaker7nospam@twcny.rr.com>
wrote:

>Ok I am looking at purchasing a new computer here my old HP 800 Mhz Intel P3
>isn't doing it! I want to edit serious video from analog to digital (aka
>make home made DVDs), currently I own a Toshiba DVD- RW (SD-r5002 model). My
>main problem is in the new system I have looked at ATI 9800 All In Wonder
>Pro cards, is there a better way to capture the video? If so what product
>can capture in real time without dropping out frames? I also currently own
>Pinnacle Systems Studio 9 for editting and I love the GUI as it is easy to
>understand and straight forward to operate. Further in my new system I am
>considering upgrading to a Pioneer DVR- A07 for the dual format reasons and
>the bragging rights!! LOL! I do have an ATI All In Wonder Pro 128 card
>currently but I find that is drops out frames during recording, and further
>when installed with the DVD-RW in my HP I can't turn the system off (some
>unknown hardware conflicit MS, BS is not picking up). BUT I am not limited
>to capture by the ATI, as I also own a very outdated Pinnacle Systems Studio
>Online (which usually works good), which uses a 1.0 Ver. USB connection.
>There are some that would argue that my lame ass Windows ME has a lot to do
>with it, but that to me is just an excuse, as there is too much wrong with
>Wintel to begin with (example Windows 95/ 486, I never found a problem). I
>know more then I am letting on with computers, and not your normal lame ass
>user. But I listen to logical, and realistic folks when they have a good
>point (in other words spammers don't bother repling). I also currently own a
>Sony Digital Camcorder with S-Video output, another thought about my new and
>old systems, I am currently running 512 megs of RAM (maxxed out) in my
>current system, but the new system I feel should be running at least 1 Gig
>of memory and with at least 2.4 Gig in Processor speed (if not better) I
>know that the Ati 9800 series card is the baddest with some of the big guns,
>but I have a very limited budget also to consider! I would like to see in
>short how many might consider builting the system outlined above as far as
>price is an issue. In closing I feel that it could be built for around $1000
>or less, provided that ease of use and OS understanding. Does anybody out
>there understand me or am I just messing with things I can't understand or
>control?
>
>Very Sincerely, E5
>

2 speedy computers built for ~$1000.00
http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,1583,a=123197,00.asp
http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,1583,a=121639,00.asp

I recommend AVerMedia capture card $79.00 - be sure to get latest drivers.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=15-100-007&depa=0

regards

Dud

--

If we are what we eat. I'm cheap, fast, and easy.

 

[Stacey]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

E5I5O wrote:

> I do have an ATI All In
> Wonder Pro 128 card currently but I find that is drops out frames during
> recording,

That is the -system-, not the card. Either the HD is too slow or the
processor is sounds like both. Also simply haveing the machine configured
wrong, like DMA not enabled can do this kind of thing. See
www.videoguys.com for system tweaks etc.


> but the new system I feel should be running at least 1 Gig of
> memory

I capture clean video on machines with a little as 256Mb, for XP you will
want 512. A P3 800 is too slow for what you're trying to do.

> and with at least 2.4 Gig in Processor speed (if not better)

Better, get at least a 2.8C 800FSB. Over all I find P4's better for video
apps as most are optimized for the P4. For any other application AMD's are
fine but video rocks on a P4.

> I know
> that the Ati 9800 series card is the baddest with some of the big guns,
> but I have a very limited budget also to consider!

The "video card" has nothing to do with video editing or capture, spend your
money elsewhere like a faster CPU or faster/larger hard drives. BTW spend
the extra few $$ and get 7200 RPM 8MB cache drives.


--

Stacey

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Your 800Mhz P3 should be fast enough to capture using
the AIW128 without dropping frames. Things to consider
are:

- making sure you have enough memory
- disabling background proggies, or making sure that
your A/V software isn't trying to scan your capture
files (turn off A/V scanning for your capture folder, or
set the A/V to only scan selected file types instead of
everything)
- get a dedicated capture drive, hooked up to the second
IDE controller or a seperate PCI capture card
- use a codec like HuffYUV or PicVideo MJPEG at Q19 to
reduce the amount of raw data being captured at high
resolutions (MJPEG Q19 at 720x480 is around 3.5-4.0 MB/s
or 13-15GB/hr, raw video is much higher).

In fact, other then encoding speeds, a P3 800 would make
a good dedicated capture box. Then just transfer the
files across the LAN to your fast gaming box to do CPU-
intensive stuff like encoding.

However, the other strike against your P3 is that you're
running WinME instead of Win2K or WinXP. Since WinME
can't make use of the NTFS file system, you run into the
nasty 4Gb file limit. (NTFS is pretty much required if
you want to do video editing, without a lot of trouble.)
You might be able to get an OEM copy of WinXP for $135
or so, but you'd have to buy something like a hard drive
or motherboard with it. (Ask the retailer, e.g.
mwave.com, for the purchase requirement details.)

----

OTOH, if you want to ditch the AIW128 as a capture
device (e.g. you don't want to deal with the A/V sync
issues). Look into going with either a set-top DVD
recorder (seriously simple) or a Canopus ADVC-100 box
that converts analog video into DV files (13GB/hr).

----

All that being said, I use an AMD AthlonXP 2600+ system
with 1Gb DDR333 and a 5400rpm 160Gb WD drive along with
an $80 Hauppauge WinTV-dbx card and a Turtle Beach Santa
Cruz soundcard to do my captures (running WinXP). I
generally capture at 704x480 or 352x480 using MJPEG Q20
(8.0-9.0 MB/s at 704x480) with zero dropped frames.

Downside is A/V sync for anything over 30 minutes at a
stretch (have to muck with the audio to make it fit
during post-production).

If I wanted, I could probably build the box for myself
again pretty cheap ($40 CPU, $50 RAM, $50 motherboard,
$80 capture card, $80 soundcard, $50 video card, $50
case, $100 hard drive, $135 WinXP Pro = $635, plus
extras like a DVD writer for $125).

In article <oCZfc.59258$M3.42245@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
jbaker7nospam@twcny.rr.com says...
> Ok I am looking at purchasing a new computer here my old HP 800 Mhz Intel P3
> isn't doing it! I want to edit serious video from analog to digital (aka
> make home made DVDs), currently I own a Toshiba DVD- RW (SD-r5002 model). My
> main problem is in the new system I have looked at ATI 9800 All In Wonder
> Pro cards, is there a better way to capture the video? If so what product
> can capture in real time without dropping out frames? I also currently own
> Pinnacle Systems Studio 9 for editting and I love the GUI as it is easy to
> understand and straight forward to operate. Further in my new system I am
> considering upgrading to a Pioneer DVR- A07 for the dual format reasons and
> the bragging rights!! LOL! I do have an ATI All In Wonder Pro 128 card
> currently but I find that is drops out frames during recording, and further
> when installed with the DVD-RW in my HP I can't turn the system off (some
> unknown hardware conflicit MS, BS is not picking up). BUT I am not limited
> to capture by the ATI, as I also own a very outdated Pinnacle Systems Studio
> Online (which usually works good), which uses a 1.0 Ver. USB connection.
> There are some that would argue that my lame ass Windows ME has a lot to do
> with it, but that to me is just an excuse, as there is too much wrong with
> Wintel to begin with (example Windows 95/ 486, I never found a problem). I
> know more then I am letting on with computers, and not your normal lame ass
> user. But I listen to logical, and realistic folks when they have a good
> point (in other words spammers don't bother repling). I also currently own a
> Sony Digital Camcorder with S-Video output, another thought about my new and
> old systems, I am currently running 512 megs of RAM (maxxed out) in my
> current system, but the new system I feel should be running at least 1 Gig
> of memory and with at least 2.4 Gig in Processor speed (if not better) I
> know that the Ati 9800 series card is the baddest with some of the big guns,
> but I have a very limited budget also to consider! I would like to see in
> short how many might consider builting the system outlined above as far as
> price is an issue. In closing I feel that it could be built for around $1000
> or less, provided that ease of use and OS understanding. Does anybody out
> there understand me or am I just messing with things I can't understand or
> control?
>
> Very Sincerely, E5
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Thanks....The card is great BUT I still do a lot of Analog Video (without
the S Vid). If the card only had an Analog port it would probably work
great! Anything you might come across though would be seriously considered!


Sincerely E5


"Duddits" <Duddits@Dreamcatcher.com> wrote in message
news:us2180d5h6a4da7sa8mlbpvnns1qgspoq0@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 23:02:44 GMT, "E5I5O" <jbaker7nospam@twcny.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Ok I am looking at purchasing a new computer here my old HP 800 Mhz Intel
P3
> >isn't doing it! I want to edit serious video from analog to digital (aka
> >make home made DVDs), currently I own a Toshiba DVD- RW (SD-r5002 model).
My
> >main problem is in the new system I have looked at ATI 9800 All In Wonder
> >Pro cards, is there a better way to capture the video? If so what product
> >can capture in real time without dropping out frames? I also currently
own
> >Pinnacle Systems Studio 9 for editting and I love the GUI as it is easy
to
> >understand and straight forward to operate. Further in my new system I am
> >considering upgrading to a Pioneer DVR- A07 for the dual format reasons
and
> >the bragging rights!! LOL! I do have an ATI All In Wonder Pro 128 card
> >currently but I find that is drops out frames during recording, and
further
> >when installed with the DVD-RW in my HP I can't turn the system off (some
> >unknown hardware conflicit MS, BS is not picking up). BUT I am not
limited
> >to capture by the ATI, as I also own a very outdated Pinnacle Systems
Studio
> >Online (which usually works good), which uses a 1.0 Ver. USB connection.
> >There are some that would argue that my lame ass Windows ME has a lot to
do
> >with it, but that to me is just an excuse, as there is too much wrong
with
> >Wintel to begin with (example Windows 95/ 486, I never found a problem).
I
> >know more then I am letting on with computers, and not your normal lame
ass
> >user. But I listen to logical, and realistic folks when they have a good
> >point (in other words spammers don't bother repling). I also currently
own a
> >Sony Digital Camcorder with S-Video output, another thought about my new
and
> >old systems, I am currently running 512 megs of RAM (maxxed out) in my
> >current system, but the new system I feel should be running at least 1
Gig
> >of memory and with at least 2.4 Gig in Processor speed (if not better) I
> >know that the Ati 9800 series card is the baddest with some of the big
guns,
> >but I have a very limited budget also to consider! I would like to see in
> >short how many might consider builting the system outlined above as far
as
> >price is an issue. In closing I feel that it could be built for around
$1000
> >or less, provided that ease of use and OS understanding. Does anybody out
> >there understand me or am I just messing with things I can't understand
or
> >control?
> >
> >Very Sincerely, E5
> >
>
> 2 speedy computers built for ~$1000.00
> http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,1583,a=123197,00.asp
> http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,1583,a=121639,00.asp
>
> I recommend AVerMedia capture card $79.00 - be sure to get latest
drivers.
>
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=15-100-007&depa=0
>
> regards
>
> Dud
>
> --
>
> If we are what we eat. I'm cheap, fast, and easy.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 04:05:22 GMT, "E5I5O" <jbaker7nospam@twcny.rr.com>
wrote:

>Thank you!!! I will look into this! I talked to one "guy" locally that says
>this system can be built for $1400 I found prices to be around $3500, if I
>could get your sources please? Thanks again!
>
>Sincerely E5

Built for $1400 sounds too high unless factoring in Windows XP, other
software, warranty, the floppy, optical drives, keyboard, mouse, speakers,
etc (of decent quality). Even then it sounds a little high.

Also beware of local vendors that use generic memory or low-end "comes
with case" generic power supply. If they want your business they'll be
honest and allow substitutions, not build with low-quality parts.

Most of the prices were noted previously from http://www.newegg.com or
http://www.pricewatch.com . When dealing with unknown vendors at
pricewatch.com be sure to check the customer reviews, ratings at
http://www.resellerratings.com .

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Thanks Kony I will check into that! I have like I said, been going nuts with
this HP POS I run now... Not knocking it for what it can do though! Sadly I
think this old machine is worth hanging on to for photo editting, Internet
stuff and paperwork projects, but it is four years old here in another
month! As for the specs on the new system they read like this:

Hardware:
2) 120 Gig Hard Drives
1) Floppy Drive
ATI 9800 AIW
DVD ROM Drive
Pioneer DVR- A07 Dual Format DVD RW
2.4 (at least) Ghz Processor
1 Gig of Memory
at least 4 USB Ports
Ethernet Card
400 Watt PS or better

Software:
Windows XP
Pinnacle Systems Studio 9
Office Professional

The biggest price oddly enough is the AIW which I have experience with as I
said. In my situation though the old AIW 128 would drop frames during
recording at times and made me really wonder if there is a better piece of
hardware out there to capture with. Not to mention price wise it is almost
the most expensive hardware in this case at Newegg Price of $337 for
example. I could wait another six months surely and the price would come
down, but I still question the overall board in the area of performance.
Thanks again though, I will check on the prices as you have mentioned. Who
would you say has the best PS manufacted? I have an old full tower case that
is been gutted for this project, but the 250 Watt PS, just won't meet specs.
Also the case I currently place on using is a basic Generic computer show
cheapy. But I find it has room enough (and layout holes) to accept an ATX
form factor board which it is currently set up for.

Sincerely, E5

"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:u1s1801ado34to6apj3ph776n82gso0h24@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 04:05:22 GMT, "E5I5O" <jbaker7nospam@twcny.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Thank you!!! I will look into this! I talked to one "guy" locally that
says
> >this system can be built for $1400 I found prices to be around $3500, if
I
> >could get your sources please? Thanks again!
> >
> >Sincerely E5
>
> Built for $1400 sounds too high unless factoring in Windows XP, other
> software, warranty, the floppy, optical drives, keyboard, mouse, speakers,
> etc (of decent quality). Even then it sounds a little high.
>
> Also beware of local vendors that use generic memory or low-end "comes
> with case" generic power supply. If they want your business they'll be
> honest and allow substitutions, not build with low-quality parts.
>
> Most of the prices were noted previously from http://www.newegg.com or
> http://www.pricewatch.com . When dealing with unknown vendors at
> pricewatch.com be sure to check the customer reviews, ratings at
> http://www.resellerratings.com .

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 12:48:42 GMT, "E5I5O" <jbaker7nospam@twcny.rr.com>
wrote:

>Thanks Kony I will check into that! I have like I said, been going nuts with
>this HP POS I run now... Not knocking it for what it can do though! Sadly I
>think this old machine is worth hanging on to for photo editting, Internet
>stuff and paperwork projects, but it is four years old here in another
>month! As for the specs on the new system they read like this:
>
>Hardware:
>2) 120 Gig Hard Drives
>1) Floppy Drive
>ATI 9800 AIW
>DVD ROM Drive
>Pioneer DVR- A07 Dual Format DVD RW
>2.4 (at least) Ghz Processor
>1 Gig of Memory
>at least 4 USB Ports
>Ethernet Card
>400 Watt PS or better
>
>Software:
>Windows XP
>Pinnacle Systems Studio 9
>Office Professional
>
>The biggest price oddly enough is the AIW which I have experience with as I
>said. In my situation though the old AIW 128 would drop frames during
>recording at times and made me really wonder if there is a better piece of
>hardware out there to capture with. Not to mention price wise it is almost
>the most expensive hardware in this case at Newegg Price of $337 for
>example. I could wait another six months surely and the price would come
>down, but I still question the overall board in the area of performance.

There is no benefit to the AIW 9800 except 3D gaming. It won't capture
even the slightest bit better, with any less frame drop. That's a
function of the rest of the system.


>Thanks again though, I will check on the prices as you have mentioned. Who
>would you say has the best PS manufacted? I have an old full tower case that
>is been gutted for this project, but the 250 Watt PS, just won't meet specs.

PC Power & Cooling are usually regarded as best, but carry a price premium
over other brands. It isn't so important to get what's "best" as to avoid
the low-end mislabeled generics. Often the generics fall so short of
their labeling you'd think they're breaking a few laws. Other respected
names include Sparkle/Fortron/Zalman, Delta, Antec, Seasonic or Enermax
(in slightly higher wattage rating than the others). That's not an
all-inclusive list though, you can research other makes.

>Also the case I currently place on using is a basic Generic computer show
>cheapy. But I find it has room enough (and layout holes) to accept an ATX
>form factor board which it is currently set up for.

It may need modifications to improve airflow, as the average cheap generic
does.

 

[Stacey]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

E5I5O wrote:

> Thanks Kony I will check into that! I have like I said, been going nuts
> with this HP POS I run now... Not knocking it for what it can do though!
> Sadly I think this old machine is worth hanging on to for photo editting,
> Internet stuff and paperwork projects, but it is four years old here in
> another month! As for the specs on the new system they read like this:
>
> Hardware:
> 2) 120 Gig Hard Drives
> 1) Floppy Drive
> ATI 9800 AIW
> DVD ROM Drive
> Pioneer DVR- A07 Dual Format DVD RW
> 2.4 (at least) Ghz Processor
> 1 Gig of Memory
> at least 4 USB Ports
> Ethernet Card
> 400 Watt PS or better
>
> Software:
> Windows XP
> Pinnacle Systems Studio 9
> Office Professional
>
> The biggest price oddly enough is the AIW which I have experience with as
> I said.

Forget that AIW card. Get something like a matrox that does quality 2D video
and then talk to the people in the video newsgroups about what card works
good for analog capture. As I said before the video card has nothing to do
with video editing and you're better off with a seperate card if you're
buying new.

--

Stacey

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 01:35:19 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:



>$120 Antec Sonata Case w/power supply
>$180 P4 2.8GHz /800FSB Northwood (retail, w/heatsink)
>$220 512MB PC3200 Memory (x 2, a pair of 'em, 1GB total)
>$ 70 Basic Video card, cost rises steeply if 3D gaming is important
>$0 Reuse optical drive, floppy, etc, etc, from HP.
>$230 160GB Hard Drives, 2 of 'em, beneficial to have 2 for editing or RAID
>$110 Motherboard, Intel 865 chipset
>----------
>$930

Excellent advice!

But what about a capture card kony?

Another "but" is E5 can save $70 by buying a good, strong, cool Enlight case
with an excellent Enlight power supply on board. Out of hundreds, not a
problem with stability, noise, or failure. The screw-less 5-1/4" bays are
very nice too.

Better snap up those Northwoods men. Those sweet overclocking 2.4c's are
already disappearing!

Bob

Remove "kins" from address to reply.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 07:39:35 -0500, Bob Adkins <bobadkins@charter.net>
wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 01:35:19 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>$120 Antec Sonata Case w/power supply
>>$180 P4 2.8GHz /800FSB Northwood (retail, w/heatsink)
>>$220 512MB PC3200 Memory (x 2, a pair of 'em, 1GB total)
>>$ 70 Basic Video card, cost rises steeply if 3D gaming is important
>>$0 Reuse optical drive, floppy, etc, etc, from HP.
>>$230 160GB Hard Drives, 2 of 'em, beneficial to have 2 for editing or RAID
>>$110 Motherboard, Intel 865 chipset
>>----------
>>$930
>
>Excellent advice!
>
>But what about a capture card kony?

What about it? OP already has two methods and primary complaint was frame
drops. It'd be premature to buy another capture card at this point. If
that AIW128 is the Pro verison it'll work on the new motherboard but IIRC
the older non-Pro 128 boards won't, that's where the transition was for
AGP 1.5V support.

So far OP has the easy "cookie cutter" capture solutions. That may be the
right fit or perhaps at some point a more versatile card like one based
around BT878 or newer CX2388. More research into particular needs may
be warranted before that decision is made since features vary and the user
interface and software does too, can be a personal-preference situation.
>
>Another "but" is E5 can save $70 by buying a good, strong, cool Enlight case
>with an excellent Enlight power supply on board. Out of hundreds, not a
>problem with stability, noise, or failure. The screw-less 5-1/4" bays are
>very nice too.

I like Enlight cases well enough, have a couple around here somewhere too,
but won't buy another because they reduced the sheet metal thickness from
1.2 and 1.0 to 1.0 and (mostly) .8 mm, but no price change.

Englight power supplies are OK, but their 300W is a bit anemic for a
modern system, 340-360W models about the least I'd use for a modern box
but even those are questionable capacity for a higher end modern system...
my feeling is that the power supply should support as many components as
can be squeezed into a case, including upgrades like video card... Enlight
420W would be the least I'd get to support higher-end video cards.

>
>Better snap up those Northwoods men. Those sweet overclocking 2.4c's are
>already disappearing!

I guess it depends on the timing too though, in a few months there may be
Prescotts that can hit 4GHz + without too much effort... only time will
tell. I agree though, if I were wanting to o'c a P4 a Northwood 2.4 is a
good choice right now.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:36:58 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>I like Enlight cases well enough, have a couple around here somewhere too,
>but won't buy another because they reduced the sheet metal thickness from
>1.2 and 1.0 to 1.0 and (mostly) .8 mm, but no price change.

The Enlight Pro's are still very thick and strong. In fact they are so heavy
they get a bit annoying.

Bob

Remove "kins" from address to reply.