BIOS upgrade, not really necessary to install XP SP2?

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Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

<ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
news:413fafba.47828964@news.charter.net...
> No, no, no.

Clueless, clueless, clueless.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Ted" <nothanks@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:413fb876$0$6908$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
>
> <ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
news:413fafba.47828964@news.charter.net...
> > No, no, no. It's not a dialog box popping up every five minutes asking
the user
> > whether to allow an outgoing program. []
>
> It is when you are writing networking apps. Well, OK, I usually
> don't build/run every 5 minutes, but you know what I mean. I
> don't know if any of the enhanced firewalls provide a simple
> means of temporarily disabling outgoing checks, and then resuming
> without having to reapprove previously trusted apps. Have you
> encountered such a feature?
>
> > Give at least some users credit for having the intelligence and the
desire to
> > know that their system is behaving incorrectly. Most of the clients I
deal with
> > fall into that category, not the head-in-the-sand category.
>
> Do most of your clients fall into the "typical home user" category?
> Do you think they would pass tests such as:
>
> InternetExplorer.exe is trying to access the Internet... allow?
> WindowsUpdate.exe is trying to access the Internet... allow?

A much better test of the user is how they'll react to ZA saying it's run
out and is goona stop firewalling. That usually leads to zero firewall.

Use SP2's firewall and a good virus checker and adware checker.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Ted" <nothanks@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:413facc3$0$6928$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
>
> "Ron Reaugh" <rondashreaugh@att.net> wrote in message
news:uoN%c.331727$OB3.286316@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > "Colin Wilson" <void@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1ba9b15b98f637db98a811@news.individual.net...
> >> > OK, I downloaded and ran that program from Intel which says my CPU is
> >> > 2.26 Ghz and with a 533 Mhz bus.
> >>
> >> I`m a little confused by all this myself - brand new Dell 2400 2.6Ghz
> >> celery, 400Mhz bus 128k secondary cache, cpu type 0 family F model 2
> >> stepping 9 revision 17
>
> > That might be a Celeron D and might be subject to the SP2 issue. Flash
the
> > latest mobo BIOS and then do SP2.
>
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Celeron D has
> 256KB L2 and a 533 MHz FSB. A google for: Celeron D cpu-z
> reveals some pages with screen caps of cpu-z tests that report
> family F, model 3 for said processor. Elsewhere I read that family
> F, model 3 identifies 90nm process CPU's, which also jives. IOW,
> I don't think that is a Celeron D.

Maybe, flash the mobo BIOS and be happy and run SP2.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Ron Reaugh wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> A much better test of the user is how they'll react to ZA saying it's run
> out and is goona stop firewalling. That usually leads to zero firewall.

ZA's freeware version doesn't "run out," and is still more versatile
than Microsoft's.

Notan
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Whether or not the firewall asks for IE 6.0 or IEXPLORE.EXE is splitting hairs.
Yes, you're right that Zone Alarm and other firewalls that check outgoing
traffic will ask the user about IEXPLORE.EXE by its executable program name, not
its function. Yes, it sure would be nice if the firewall asked nicely whether
Internet Explorer was allowed to access the internet, rather than asking about
the executable program name.

My point was to distinguish between IE 6.0 and IE 6.1 as examples where the
firewall knows the difference between an older version and a newer version of
the same executable program, because it keeps track of the properties of the
program.

Yes indeedie, telling the firewall that IE can have access to the internet DOES
open up IE to all manner of evil varmints. This is EXACTLY the same as if one
were using the XP SP2 firewall instead. With the XP SP2 firewall in place, IE
or any other program) has free and unobstructed access to the internet. IE's
Internet Options allow the user to lock down some of the security, blocking the
use of potentially harmful usage.

Did I not make it clear that you only have to tell ZA or Norton firewall once
that a program is authorized to access the internet? Sheesh! ... Ben Myers

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:36:06 -0400, William P.N. Smith wrote:

>ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers) wrote:
>>For example, the first time a dialog box pops up telling you that IE 6.0 wanted
>>to access the internet, you would respond to allow it to always have outgoing
>>access.
>
>Two problems here. First, it doesn't ask if IE 6.0 (or Internet
>Explorer, or anything else recognizable by name to the average user)
>wants access, it asks if IEXPLORE.EXE can have access (if it's not
>asking about something really incomprehensible, like wisptis.exe).
>
>Secondly, by telling the firewall that Internet Explorer can do
>anything it wants on the internet, you are leaving yourself open for
>the next bit of malware that overflows a buffer or hands the OS
>something that looks and feels like a music file to the browser, but
>which the OS knows is a .SCR (and knows just how to handle).
>
>Most users (not you and me, and everyone here, but common ordinary
>people) can't properly parse the question "Is it OK to do this?" for
>all values of "this" that a firewall is going to ask them. It's only
>going to annoy them to the point where they _always_ say yes.
>
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:413FC851.57404FB5@ddress.com...
> Ron Reaugh wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > A much better test of the user is how they'll react to ZA saying it's
run
> > out and is goona stop firewalling. That usually leads to zero firewall.
>
> ZA's freeware version doesn't "run out," and is still more versatile
> than Microsoft's.

No, it requires separate install, care and feeding beyond MS's Automatic
Update.

SP2's firewall plus good virus checker plus a good adware checker is all
that's needed.

I suppose that a summation of my position is that the virus checker and
adware checker should be just ONE program ......and included in SP3.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <rondashreaugh@att.net> wrote in message news:7QQ%c.332747$OB3.296956@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

> SP2's firewall plus good virus checker plus a good adware checker is all
> that's needed.
>
> I suppose that a summation of my position is that the virus checker and
> adware checker should be just ONE program ......and included in SP3.

OK, now that you've provided a summation of your position, would
it be too much to ask that you stop running around and spewing like
an impertinent fanboy who has the One True Answer (tm) for
everything?

Your insults and jabs, overly dismissive and overly simplistic blanket
statements, and tendency to repeat yourself are an impediment to
meaningfull discussion/debate.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

I haven't run into a firewall feature that allows flexible controls over
networking apps, constantly being recompiled with new versions. My guess is
that Checkpoint or some other vendor of truly heavy duty workgroup or enterprise
firewalls may have this sort of feature. The consumer-oriented firewalls have
an option to suspend (or resume) all firewall monitoring activity.

My clients consist of home and small business users, up to 50 computers.

Most of them would pass tests such as:

InternetExplorer.exe is trying to access the Internet... allow?
WindowsUpdate.exe is trying to access the Internet... allow?

It takes a little explaining, but anyone who has valuable personal business or
personal data (or programs) on a computer is usually all ears, especially after
the first incident of varmints inside their computer. It's really not all that
difficult. Most people tend to use the same programs over and over to access
the internet: a browser, an email package, (maybe) a freestanding FTP package,
(maybe) a freestanding newsreader, and so on. And a high percentage use only IE
and Outlook/Outlook Express... Ben Myers

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:57:18 -0400, "Ted" <nothanks@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>
><ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message news:413fafba.47828964@news.charter.net...
>> No, no, no. It's not a dialog box popping up every five minutes asking the user
>> whether to allow an outgoing program. []
>
>It is when you are writing networking apps. Well, OK, I usually
>don't build/run every 5 minutes, but you know what I mean. I
>don't know if any of the enhanced firewalls provide a simple
>means of temporarily disabling outgoing checks, and then resuming
>without having to reapprove previously trusted apps. Have you
>encountered such a feature?
>
>> Give at least some users credit for having the intelligence and the desire to
>> know that their system is behaving incorrectly. Most of the clients I deal with
>> fall into that category, not the head-in-the-sand category.
>
>Do most of your clients fall into the "typical home user" category?
>Do you think they would pass tests such as:
>
>InternetExplorer.exe is trying to access the Internet... allow?
>WindowsUpdate.exe is trying to access the Internet... allow?
>
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Ron Reaugh wrote:
>
> "Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
> news:413FC851.57404FB5@ddress.com...
> > Ron Reaugh wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > A much better test of the user is how they'll react to ZA saying it's
> run
> > > out and is goona stop firewalling. That usually leads to zero firewall.
> >
> > ZA's freeware version doesn't "run out," and is still more versatile
> > than Microsoft's.
>
> No, it requires separate install, care and feeding beyond MS's Automatic
> Update.
>
> SP2's firewall plus good virus checker plus a good adware checker is all
> that's needed.
>
> I suppose that a summation of my position is that the virus checker and
> adware checker should be just ONE program ......and included in SP3.

RON! STOP TALKING AND LISTEN!

SP2's firewall is not *the* way to go, when other, better firewalls
are available.

ZA has the option of checking for automatic updates, each time it
loads.

I'm not pushing ZA, per se, just trying to get you to listen to a
voice other than your own.

Notan
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

<ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
news:413fd526.57410888@news.charter.net...
> Whether or not the firewall asks for IE 6.0 or IEXPLORE.EXE is splitting
hairs.
> Yes, you're right that Zone Alarm and other firewalls that check outgoing
> traffic will ask the user about IEXPLORE.EXE by its executable program
name, not
> its function. Yes, it sure would be nice if the firewall asked nicely
whether
> Internet Explorer was allowed to access the internet, rather than asking
about
> the executable program name.

That would help nothing.

> My point was to distinguish between IE 6.0 and IE 6.1 as examples where
the
> firewall knows the difference between an older version and a newer version
of
> the same executable program, because it keeps track of the properties of
the
> program.

Huh, and that relates to what?
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Some decisions are so easy...PLONK.

Ted Zieglar

"Ron Reaugh" <rondashreaugh@att.net> wrote in message
news:h9R%c.332848$OB3.33928@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> <ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
> news:413fd526.57410888@news.charter.net...
> > Whether or not the firewall asks for IE 6.0 or IEXPLORE.EXE is splitting
> hairs.
> > Yes, you're right that Zone Alarm and other firewalls that check
outgoing
> > traffic will ask the user about IEXPLORE.EXE by its executable program
> name, not
> > its function. Yes, it sure would be nice if the firewall asked nicely
> whether
> > Internet Explorer was allowed to access the internet, rather than asking
> about
> > the executable program name.
>
> That would help nothing.
>
> > My point was to distinguish between IE 6.0 and IE 6.1 as examples where
> the
> > firewall knows the difference between an older version and a newer
version
> of
> > the same executable program, because it keeps track of the properties of
> the
> > program.
>
> Huh, and that relates to what?
>
>
>
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:413FDAE4.277C3241@ddress.com...
> Ron Reaugh wrote:
> >
> > "Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
> > news:413FC851.57404FB5@ddress.com...
> > > Ron Reaugh wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > A much better test of the user is how they'll react to ZA saying
it's
> > run
> > > > out and is goona stop firewalling. That usually leads to zero
firewall.
> > >
> > > ZA's freeware version doesn't "run out," and is still more versatile
> > > than Microsoft's.
> >
> > No, it requires separate install, care and feeding beyond MS's
Automatic
> > Update.
> >
> > SP2's firewall plus good virus checker plus a good adware checker is all
> > that's needed.
> >
> > I suppose that a summation of my position is that the virus checker and
> > adware checker should be just ONE program ......and included in SP3.
>
> RON! STOP TALKING AND LISTEN!

To the clueless..not a chance. garner more computer expertise before
spouting.

> SP2's firewall is not *the* way to go,

WRONG!

> when other,

"other" is the problem. Any fundamental OS feature should be included in
the OS and if it's even close to being included in the OS then USE IT. Your
mindset would take us back to Netroom and Stacker hell.

> better firewalls
> are available.
>
> ZA has the option of checking for automatic updates, each time it
> loads.

Once the neophyte ever figures out about the existence of ZA and installs
it...just NO!

> I'm not pushing ZA,

You are pushing 3rd party OS support apps...they should be avoided WHEREVER
POSSIBLE.

> per se, just trying to get you to listen to a
> voice other than your own.
>
> Notan
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Ron Reaugh wrote:
>
> <snip>

Fine, Ron. You're right, everyone else is wrong.

I'm more than happy to leave on that note.

See ya!

Notan
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <rondashreaugh@att.net> wrote in message
news:IBL%c.331200$OB3.267257@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote in message
> news:10juvl1f4o8kffd@corp.supernews.com...
> > OK, I downloaded and ran that program from Intel which says my CPU is
2.26
> > Ghz and with a 533 Mhz bus.
> >
> > Ergo, it's a Prescot,
>
> NOT a Prescott.


OK, then what is it? And, why don't manufacturers put the name of the chip
on their invoice? It lists everything about the computer, but not the chip-
as if to say that most users don't need such esoteric info- but we do if we
want to upgrade, so it should be on the invoice.

Joe
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:40:45 GMT, "Ron Reaugh" <rondashreaugh@att.net> wrote:

>
><ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
>news:413fd526.57410888@news.charter.net...
>> Whether or not the firewall asks for IE 6.0 or IEXPLORE.EXE is splitting
>hairs.
>> Yes, you're right that Zone Alarm and other firewalls that check outgoing
>> traffic will ask the user about IEXPLORE.EXE by its executable program
>name, not
>> its function. Yes, it sure would be nice if the firewall asked nicely
>whether
>> Internet Explorer was allowed to access the internet, rather than asking
>about
>> the executable program name.
>
>That would help nothing.
>

Actually, it would make the firewall easier to use, identifying the program by
its well known name instead of an EXE name.

>> My point was to distinguish between IE 6.0 and IE 6.1 as examples where
>the
>> firewall knows the difference between an older version and a newer version
>of
>> the same executable program, because it keeps track of the properties of
>the
>> program.
>
>Huh, and that relates to what?
>
>

That relates to ones relative safety in using a firewall that monitors outgoing
traffic. It's a useful feature for a firewall to be able to tell apart
different versions from one another.

But I forgot. I seem to be responding to a person who espouses use of Microsoft
and only Microsoft products 24/7. Look where that approach has gotten the
industry! ... Ben Myers
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Name brand computer manufacturers have hardly ever used Intel internal code
names for chips on their invoices. "Prescott" is an unofficial-official Intel
code name. In other words, Intel plays it both ways with its code names.

For the most part, only the CPU pinout, FSB, CPU speed, and internal cache size
appear on invoices, plus today's current market names of Pentium 4 and Celeron.

.... Ben Myers

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:28:39 -0400, "Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote:

>
>
>
>"Ron Reaugh" <rondashreaugh@att.net> wrote in message
>news:IBL%c.331200$OB3.267257@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>> "Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote in message
>> news:10juvl1f4o8kffd@corp.supernews.com...
>> > OK, I downloaded and ran that program from Intel which says my CPU is
>2.26
>> > Ghz and with a 533 Mhz bus.
>> >
>> > Ergo, it's a Prescot,
>>
>> NOT a Prescott.
>
>
>OK, then what is it? And, why don't manufacturers put the name of the chip
>on their invoice? It lists everything about the computer, but not the chip-
>as if to say that most users don't need such esoteric info- but we do if we
>want to upgrade, so it should be on the invoice.
>
>Joe
>
>
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

So which one do I have? Or, how would I find out? I know, I know, go to
Dell's web site- but I enjoy getting enlightened from you guys. <G>

--
*************
Joe Zorzin


<ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
news:414071b0.4479242@news.charter.net...
> Name brand computer manufacturers have hardly ever used Intel internal
code
> names for chips on their invoices. "Prescott" is an unofficial-official
Intel
> code name. In other words, Intel plays it both ways with its code names.
>
> For the most part, only the CPU pinout, FSB, CPU speed, and internal cache
size
> appear on invoices, plus today's current market names of Pentium 4 and
Celeron.
>
> ... Ben Myers
>
> On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:28:39 -0400, "Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >"Ron Reaugh" <rondashreaugh@att.net> wrote in message
> >news:IBL%c.331200$OB3.267257@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >>
> >> "Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote in message
> >> news:10juvl1f4o8kffd@corp.supernews.com...
> >> > OK, I downloaded and ran that program from Intel which says my CPU is
> >2.26
> >> > Ghz and with a 533 Mhz bus.
> >> >
> >> > Ergo, it's a Prescot,
> >>
> >> NOT a Prescott.
> >
> >
> >OK, then what is it? And, why don't manufacturers put the name of the
chip
> >on their invoice? It lists everything about the computer, but not the
chip-
> >as if to say that most users don't need such esoteric info- but we do if
we
> >want to upgrade, so it should be on the invoice.
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >
>
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

<ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message

> But I forgot. I seem to be responding to a person who espouses use of
Microsoft
> and only Microsoft products 24/7. Look where that approach has gotten the
> industry! ... Ben Myers

About 5-8 years ahead or where it would have been without MS.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

> I haven't run into a firewall feature that allows flexible controls over
> networking apps, constantly being recompiled with new versions.

ZA has a "changes frequently" setting for apps that are regularly updated

--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

You have an Intel 8088.

"Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote in message
news:10k1ar9jqg2uc3b@corp.supernews.com...
> So which one do I have? Or, how would I find out? I know, I know, go to
> Dell's web site- but I enjoy getting enlightened from you guys. <G>
>
> --
> *************
> Joe Zorzin
>
>
> <ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
> news:414071b0.4479242@news.charter.net...
> > Name brand computer manufacturers have hardly ever used Intel internal
> code
> > names for chips on their invoices. "Prescott" is an unofficial-official
> Intel
> > code name. In other words, Intel plays it both ways with its code
names.
> >
> > For the most part, only the CPU pinout, FSB, CPU speed, and internal
cache
> size
> > appear on invoices, plus today's current market names of Pentium 4 and
> Celeron.
> >
> > ... Ben Myers
> >
> > On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:28:39 -0400, "Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >"Ron Reaugh" <rondashreaugh@att.net> wrote in message
> > >news:IBL%c.331200$OB3.267257@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > >>
> > >> "Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote in message
> > >> news:10juvl1f4o8kffd@corp.supernews.com...
> > >> > OK, I downloaded and ran that program from Intel which says my CPU
is
> > >2.26
> > >> > Ghz and with a 533 Mhz bus.
> > >> >
> > >> > Ergo, it's a Prescot,
> > >>
> > >> NOT a Prescott.
> > >
> > >
> > >OK, then what is it? And, why don't manufacturers put the name of the
> chip
> > >on their invoice? It lists everything about the computer, but not the
> chip-
> > >as if to say that most users don't need such esoteric info- but we do
if
> we
> > >want to upgrade, so it should be on the invoice.
> > >
> > >Joe
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Ron Reaugh wrote:
> <ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
>
>>But I forgot. I seem to be responding to a person who espouses use of
>
> Microsoft
>
>>and only Microsoft products 24/7. Look where that approach has gotten the
>>industry! ... Ben Myers
>
> About 5-8 years ahead or where it would have been without MS.

<snort>

Fortunately the industry doesn't use MS across the board.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Sparky" <nemo@moon.sun.edu> wrote in message
news:3Xk0d.14426$bE1.8562032@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> Ron Reaugh wrote:
>> <ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
>>
>>>But I forgot. I seem to be responding to a person who espouses use of
>>
>> Microsoft
>>
>>>and only Microsoft products 24/7. Look where that approach has gotten
>>>the
>>>industry! ... Ben Myers
>>
>> About 5-8 years ahead or where it would have been without MS.
>
> <snort>
>
> Fortunately the industry doesn't use MS across the board.

Hope, just 99.99999%.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Sparky" <nemo@moon.sun.edu> wrote in message
news:3Xk0d.14426$bE1.8562032@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> Ron Reaugh wrote:
> > <ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
> >
> >>But I forgot. I seem to be responding to a person who espouses use of
> >
> > Microsoft
> >
> >>and only Microsoft products 24/7. Look where that approach has gotten
the
> >>industry! ... Ben Myers
> >
> > About 5-8 years ahead or where it would have been without MS.
>
> <snort>
>
> Fortunately the industry doesn't use MS across the board.

Fortunately the percentages say otherwise. Go back in your sty.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Ron Reaugh wrote:
>
> "Sparky" <nemo@moon.sun.edu> wrote in message
> news:3Xk0d.14426$bE1.8562032@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> > Ron Reaugh wrote:
> > > <ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
> > >
> > >>But I forgot. I seem to be responding to a person who espouses use of
> > >
> > > Microsoft
> > >
> > >>and only Microsoft products 24/7. Look where that approach has gotten
> the
> > >>industry! ... Ben Myers
> > >
> > > About 5-8 years ahead or where it would have been without MS.
> >
> > <snort>
> >
> > Fortunately the industry doesn't use MS across the board.
>
> Fortunately the percentages say otherwise. Go back in your sty.

What the matter, Ron? No dick? You've got a real attitude.

Notan